An Open Letter

singalion · May 21, 2020

12 hours ago, Guest Caught Telling Lies said:

Since this thread is now on page three, I want to remind everyone of my proposed solutions, which make for the best compromise.

GUEST CTL’S PROPOSED SOLUTIONS

Convert the current Members Lounge into a Members Only Main Forum.

Convert the current Main Forum into a Newcomers & Guests Lounge.

Move the new Members Only Main Forum to first on the menu and the new Newcomers & Guests Lounge to second on the menu.

Move all currently existing threads which have reached at least two pages into the new Members Only Main Forum.

Doing it this way allows the guests to stay and have their own room, while giving priority to the members, as it truthfully should be.

I have a counter proposal or amended proposal to this initial one:

Convert the current BW MAIN FORUM into a Members' Only Main Forum
Leave the existing Members Lounge as it is.
Create a new Forum into a Newcomers & Guest Lounge as the third on the menu.
Move the "new" Members' Only Main Forum to first on the menu and the new Newcomers & Guest Lounge to third on the menu.Leave the Members Lounge as second on the menu
(optional) Move all existing threads in the new Newcomers & Guest Lounge which have reached at least five pages into the new Members' Only Main Forum.

Doing it this way allows the guests to stay and have their own room, while giving priority to the members, as it truthfully should be.

Reasons:

At the moment there is a difference in discussions between the Main Forum and the Members Lounge. The current Members' Lounge has more of this cruising experience talks , cruising in swimming pools, where to find the best spa for being nude in the steam room, outdoor sex adventures, but discussions not on looking for sex partners (such as the Personals).

The current Main Forum has more on broader discussions, advice seeking, gay lifestyle discussions. I don't see this so much in the existing Members' Lounge. As said naturally, both might merge into one over time.

It might be too time consuming for the Moderators to comb through all threads at the current Members' Lounge and move them (to the new Members' Only Main Forum). In the long term the Members' Lounge may be reduced if more discussions are happening in the Members' Only Main Forum.

For the Newcomer & Guest Lounge I have one further recommendation:

After the third interference from the Moderator, any thread at the Newcomer & Guest Lounge shall be moved to the Members' Only Main Forum.

Background: to avoid further fighting and bickering or trolling but to keep the discussion in the Main Forum and not moved to the Flaming Room.

Experience: Too many good discussions end up in the Flaming Room due to critical Guest trolls and then the discussion is dead.

I slightly amended the names of the new Rooms due to grammar reasons.

singalion · May 21, 2020

I have drafted an amended proposal to the one from Guest Caught Telling Lies, but it is currently hidden and requires Moderator approval.

Larry · May 21, 2020

7 minutes ago, Nightingale said:

Only Heaven, Earth & the Moderator know. Guests are still able to use different nicks to re-play the same tune.

Precisely, that's the difference in-between members & guests. As member, I stick to my decision & not eating my own words. However for him, he can come in as Guest Seven, Eight, Nine, Ten & so on unlimited.

Larry · May 21, 2020

1 minute ago, Nightingale said:

As what Guest Disclosed Yourself has often said "A Thousand And One Nicks".

A few rotten octopus spoil the whole bucket of fresh seafood.

For those non-trolling guests, that is the real problem.

May 21, 2020

2 hours ago, singalion said:

I have a counter proposal or amended proposal to this initial one:

Convert the current BW MAIN FORUM into a Members' Only Main Forum

Leave the existing Members Lounge as it is.

While that sounds like a good thing, but why have two folders dedicated to Members? (am just wondering)

People are often drawn to structures. Our eyes are always transported to what we see first. Subconsciously, what we see is what we act/do/react/respond. Perhaps, to have Members' Only Main Forum right on top can lead the fingers clicked on it, hence more viewership/readership/participation? Perhaps, this is also the reason why Members chose to post a new thread here rather than at Members Lounge?

So long we are human, there is no way to stop us from bitching at each other. Very often, we put aside the needed moral grounds but let our ego to rule. This sad bad character of ours is made worst when, like what is already available in this unique forum, for guests to roam free and be wild without considering for others.

As a litmus test and to really really really prove that Members can provide contents to BW, how about all Members to post in Members Lounge from here onward? This is to give signal to guests that things in BW are changing.

Steve5380 · May 21, 2020

3 hours ago, singalion said:

I have drafted an amended proposal to the one from Guest Caught Telling Lies, but it is currently hidden and requires Moderator approval.

I also had my longer posts put on hold until approved by Moderator.

This is a good sign that moderators are paying attention.

28 minutes ago, Guest PasserBy said:

While that sounds like a good thing, but why have two folders dedicated to Members? (am just wondering)

People are often drawn to structures. Our eyes are always transported to what we see first. Subconsciously, what we see is what we act/do/react/respond. Perhaps, to have Members' Only Main Forum right on top can lead the fingers clicked on it, hence more viewership/readership/participation? Perhaps, this is also the reason why Members chose to post a new thread here rather than at Members Lounge?

So long we are human, there is no way to stop us from bitching at each other. Very often, we put aside the needed moral grounds but let our ego to rule. This sad bad character of ours is made worst when, like what is already available in this unique forum, for guests to roam free and be wild without considering for others.

As a litmus test and to really really really prove that Members can provide contents to BW, how about all Members to post in Members Lounge from here onward? This is to give signal to guests that things in BW are changing.

You are right that there seems to be no need to have more than one folder exclusively for members.

Your "litmus test" is a good idea and it does not need any structural change. But it requires a consensus which is difficult to get.

Also if we confine ourselves to the Members Lounge, we would never see your posts, ha ha

We like to post our new threads in the Main Forum, even if there are other folders more appropriate for the thread's topic, because here is where the readership is. Thinking of it, it occurs to me another (of the many) proposals for the BW structure:

- New threads, where they sit for a week or so before being moved to either:

- Members' threads

- Guest's threads

but then, this does not avoid having to move around between folders. Because the site becomes so frustrating slow sometimes it is a pain to have to go to "Forums" to then select the desired folder. How about replacing on the top menu line the "Forums" with "Main Forum", "Members Lounge" and "Other" (there is space for more options)?

singalion · May 21, 2020

On 5/21/2020 at 8:04 PM, Guest PasserBy said:

While that sounds like a good thing, but why have two folders dedicated to Members? (am just wondering)

People are often drawn to structures. Our eyes are always transported to what we see first. Subconsciously, what we see is what we act/do/react/respond. Perhaps, to have Members' Only Main Forum right on top can lead the fingers clicked on it, hence more viewership/readership/participation? Perhaps, this is also the reason why Members chose to post a new thread here rather than at Members Lounge?

So long we are human, there is no way to stop us from bitching at each other. Very often, we put aside the needed moral grounds but let our ego to rule. This sad bad character of ours is made worst when, like what is already available in this unique forum, for guests to roam free and be wild without considering for others.

As a litmus test and to really really really prove that Members can provide contents to BW, how about all Members to post in Members Lounge from here onward? This is to give signal to guests that things in BW are changing.

In my other post presenting the amended proposal I explained why the two Member Forums. Maybe you read my post again.

On 5/21/2020 at 4:48 PM, singalion said:

Convert the current BW MAIN FORUM into a Members' Only Main Forum

Leave the existing Members Lounge as it is.

Create a new Forum into a Newcomers & Guest Lounge as the third on the menu.

Move the "new" Members' Only Main Forum to first on the menu and the new Newcomers & Guest Lounge to third on the menu.Leave the Members Lounge as second on the menu

(optional) Move all existing threads in the new Newcomers & Guest Lounge which have reached at least five pages into the new Members' Only Main Forum.

Reasons:

At the moment there is a difference in discussions between the Main Forum and the Members Lounge. The current Members' Lounge has more of this cruising experience talks , cruising in swimming pools, where to find the best spa for being nude in the steam room, outdoor sex adventures, but discussions not on looking for sex partners (such as the Personals).

The current Main Forum has more on broader discussions, advice seeking, gay lifestyle discussions. I don't see this so much in the existing Members' Lounge. As said naturally, both might merge into one over time.

Looking at the different Forum Rooms, there are currently already two Rooms for Members, which are Members' Lounge and Personals.

Both can only be accessed as Members to post anything.

Personals seems to cater for dating and cruising experience and fun, while the Members' Lounge is more the discussion Room.

Providing two Member Forums/ Rooms at start for my amended proposal as above comes from the background for the First Room, the Main Forum to be more lively at the moment, having more movement, more topics created and having more broader issues discussed on a wide range. I don't see this with the Members' Lounge. The Members' Lounge has been underutilised for years.

My aim was just offering a compromise considering the different factors of usage, movement, topics created etc.

In my very personal taste I would always vote for a members only Blowing Wind on all Forums and Rooms and exclude guests from posting (but they can read forums) as I predicts for Guests to continue disturbing discussions in the long term.

As such I simply thought about a compromise to move on with any changes for BW.

Edited May 26, 2020 by singalion
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May 21, 2020

24 minutes ago, Guest Aunty Lucy said:

The fact that it has reached at least 2 pages, was due "guests" regular contributions and certain Elder's members extremely "lengthy comment". Moving it to the Members Only Main Forum is akin to putting a hyperactive beast to sleep ...

Good.

Steve5380 · May 21, 2020

16 minutes ago, Guest Caught Telling Lies said:

Good.

It cannot be ignored that guests' comments add some spice to the conversations.

May 21, 2020

There is a old saying in marketing -- KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID -- (KISS).

Now it seems like some of you are making complicated proposals for no reason other than to be different. We do not need to have two separate members rooms and also have a room for guests. That would only fragment things further and help drive more people away. Right now there are three forums at the top -- Main Forum / Members Lounge / Personals -- and I concur that everybody goes to the Main Forum because it is listed first and it has the most threads. That is very easy to change, however, if the moderators listen.

I agree with the simple but easy proposal of Guest Caught Telling Lies.

singalion · May 22, 2020

On 5/21/2020 at 12:57 AM, Guest Snipper said:

I felt dizzy reading all the comments here. So, what is the conclusion? Please give short to the point and easy to read answer.

In every democracy or mannered discussion, pro and cons are exchanged before decision makers have a final review.

If you can't stand this, it might be more suited for you to move to the People's Republic of China or North Korea. You don't need to voice your opinion there as others decide for you.

If your grandfather intends to sponsor a holiday for the whole family and asks all members whether to visit a city or do a beach holiday, will you ask for a conclusion first before the matter has been discussed?

I didn't see posts being extremely lengthy at this thread.

By the way: Where is your input? No ideas? What is the purpose of your post then?

Otherwise take this thread as a learning step for becoming more patient.

singalion · May 22, 2020

13 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

It cannot be ignored that guests' comments add some spice to the conversations.

It cannot be ignored that Guest's comments add huge disruption and cause for extreme angriness to the conversations.

Steve5380 · May 22, 2020

7 hours ago, singalion said:

It cannot be ignored that Guest's comments add huge disruption and cause for extreme angriness to the conversations.

And it should be expected that every ADULT MEMBER here is able to develop good resistance to extreme anger from some comments by an anonymous person in a forum, and be able to not be hugely disrupted by some nasty individual he does not know. Any post that is hugely disruptive can be IGNORED, and if not hidden by the forum, then ERASED from the mind after reading it.

May 23, 2020

On 5/21/2020 at 10:03 PM, Nightingale said:

If I were the moderator with existing conditions, I would have to check 3 or 4 times daily the 3 rooms - Main, Members, Personals - and also to see the Flaming Room threads to see if any updates contain any inflammatory anti-govt comments that can be construed as treason to the state. Very time consuming & energy sapping. By the time I was done, I would have little or no time to do my own things e.g. buy food, groceries, spare parts for computer or household equipment, see a show, visit a relative or friend, go to the park to exercise . . . . But with only 1 or 2 rooms to focus on (Main plus Personals), my job would be a breeze, comparatively speaking. Nobody would be deprived of his speaking rights as long as he registers himself. He must be responsible for (and stand for) whatever he says. Reduced Trolling + Simplified Moderation = Win Win.

The moderators have aleady stated MANY times that they will NOT get rid of guests. Therefore your posts on getting rid of guests are a WASTE OF TIME.

Continually making posts pushing to get rid of all guests is not adding POSITIVITY to this conversation, because the moderators already said they won't do it.

While understanding why you dislike guests, you will be better off if you join the CURRENT CONVERSATION, rather than repeatedly bringing up old arguments.

If you want to be constructive, you need to advocate for the BEST COMPROMISE that allows access to guests, but also prevents trolls from hurting members.

I agree with Guest Loquacious Larry Laminator above that the BEST + SIMPLEST PROPOSAL to do exactly that was created by Guest Caught Telling Lies.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #

GUEST CTL’S PROPOSED SOLUTIONS

Convert the current Members Lounge into a Members Only Main Forum.
Convert the current Main Forum into a Newcomers & Guests Lounge.
Move the new Members Only Main Forum to first on the menu and the new Newcomers & Guests Lounge to second on the menu.
Move all currently existing threads which have reached at least two pages into the new Members Only Main Forum.

singalion · May 23, 2020

3 hours ago, Guest Overdosed Yourself said:

The moderators have aleady stated MANY times that they will NOT get rid of guests. Therefore your posts on getting rid of guests are a WASTE OF TIME.

This is a very negative approach. I hope for you that in real life you don't carry this negativity with your for every venture you go.

If you always think nothing will change and every effort is wasted from start, not sure if you achieve anything in your life.

If anything had been set in stone, then Najib would be still the PM of Malaysia and probably Haile Selassie the King of Ethopia. (As much as I disliked the outcome,) Brexit would not have happened and section 377 (Criminalisation of gays) still applicable in Indian Criminal Law or other parts of the world...

You never know. Let the Moderators digest on this topic.

I m very sure the Moderators see for themselves what currently is not working well on BW and what is causing headache.

I don't think they would want the Forum to die off.

If the Moderators think they don't need change, then BW might end like Kodak, Nokia, Borders, Blackberry or Playboy.

Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future.

Wouldn't the Moderators have killed off this discussion if they are not interested to receive feedback or ideas on improving BW?

It might even be sooner or later in full consideration of the laws applicable, BW has no other choice as to go into a membership only Online Forum.

There might be some evolvement of events that will keep BW for no other option. You never know...

Edited May 23, 2020 by singalion
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May 23, 2020

First of all, the proposal by Guest Caught Telling Lies is not my proposal, as I was simply agreeing with the proposal made by another guest.

You have both missed my point and also taken sentence fragments out of context. Some members have been demanding that the moderators get rid of all guest posting access for more than 10 years. The moderators have repeatedly posted that they want to keep allowing guest access. So the next step is a discussion of how to allow guest access while also protecting the members from ridiculous trolls.

Those need to be the parameters of this conversation. Any other "pie in the sky" or "green cheese from the moon" will not happen. The moderators have made that clear. So please focus on what is realistic and actually possible. Otherwise you are wasting time becase the moderators don't want to completely get rid of guests. That is how you need to be thinking to convince the moderators to change anything.

With those limits in mind, that is why I agreed with Guest Loquacious Larry Laminator, in regard to his support for Guest Caught Telling Lies.

singalion · May 23, 2020

Outdated decisions having lost justification over time can be thrown overboard at any time.

What might have been correct 20 years back, might not carry any value today.

We don't know what the current position of the Moderators/ BW is at all.

The last time the Moderators/ BW voiced out on this is 2 years back.

Things have not developed to the better but to the worse (Otherwise we would not discuss the same issue again on such short terms).

Thank you for your clarifications for simply supporting Caught Telling Lies proposal.

As an analogy:

If the government will abolish 377A just for consensual non anal sexual acts between only two men in a private residence, but leave the criminalisation for any other sexual act or amount of men, would this mean you would not continue to fight for the total abolishment of 377A to include any sexual acts between men?

If you speak out why Guests should be able to post on BW, then you should inform us on your reasons and justification permitting Guests to post. But so far you just want guests to post without elaborating the "why" and proposing on how to settle any trolling issues combined with that option.

It is like saying: I m for Magnum ice cream but without saying why you prefer this brand.

Edited May 23, 2020 by singalion
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May 23, 2020

22 minutes ago, Nightingale said:

That's the similar tune played by our govt and in many Asian and African countries. "Gay sex will always be declared illegal and unnatural. Any attempt at removing anti-gay laws is wasting time. Please focus on how to remove gay lifestyle and stop it from spreading." That's why homophobes tend to agree with religious conservatives.

Your analogy is not correct. A better way to look at my position is to imagine me as an activist who acknowledges that ... "the country will never legally allow gay sex" ... so ... "what can we do to at least get the country to not persecute gays and not prosecute them for having sex" ... in order to lessen the amount of anti-gay discrimination in society?

May 23, 2020

28 minutes ago, Nightingale said:

To me, your allowing of trolls to continue abusing the system is akin to allowing homophobes to continue bullying the gays. The analogy is as simple as that. So what is your solution to the homophobes issue? Let's hear it.

The homphobic issue is for another thread. I am not going to veer off topic here.

As for the trolls, I don't want to enable them, which I why I support a compromise between the current position of the moderators (guest in the main room) and the position they will never adopt (no guests at all). Guest Caught Telling Lies proposed that the Members Room be moved to the top of the list, and all threads that are two pages or more be transferred there, which would make the Members Room the first on the list and, by default, the hub of activity. No guests would be allowed there at all.

Then there would be a secondary room for Guests and Newcomers who have not yet registered. It would have a lot fewer topics and most members would never bother to go in that room. Doing that lets the moderators keep allowing the guests on the site while also preventing troll guests from hurting members. There would never be a reason for any member to enter that room unless he intentionally wants to interact with guests. That means you, for example, would not be trolled by guests anymore.

I don't see why this concept is so hard to understand as it's a good compromise.

May 23, 2020

1 hour ago, Nightingale said:

Of course this thread is not on homophobia but the analogy is clearly the same. That's because you cannot provide a solution.

Please stop trying to bait me with empty accusations. It's disrespectful to Larry's intentions in starting this thread. Thank you.

1 hour ago, Nightingale said:

No, the concept is not hard at all. What you are saying is that you favour what the super troll Auntie OCD Fascist has been saying all along, i.e. Members should stick to Members Lounge and Guests can have a free rein to troll in the Main Forum. Should any Member enters the Main Room and get trolled, he jolly well remains in the Members Lounge and not venture beyond it.

The current Main Room would no longer be the Main Room, as the current Members Room would become the new Main Room. All threads that are at least two pages would be transferred to the Members Room, which would be moved to the top of the list.

The current Main Room would be "downgraded" to a Guests and Newcomers Room and dropped to second on the list. You would effectively be getting what you want anyway, a Members Only Main Room with no guests. Don't you realize that? It's easy to see.

The proposal by Guest Caught Telling Lies gives you 90% of what you want. Don't be like a Berniecrat and let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Take a bunch of steps towards "universal coverage" and then regroup and make efforts to grab the rest later.

The only difference is that there would still be a small room for Guests and Newcomers that most members would ignore unless they are desperate to interact with guests. I only support this as the moderators have said guests will never be 100% eliminated.

May 23, 2020

I have made my points intelligently and clearly and will not waste time bothering about trolls like "Dirty Aunty" because that disrespects Larry's intentions for this thread.

I just reiterate that I support the BEST COMPROMISE between the moderators wanting to allow guests, and also stopping trolling, which is by Guest Caught Telling Lies.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #

GUEST CTL’S PROPOSED SOLUTIONS

Convert the current Members Lounge into a Members Only Main Forum.
Convert the current Main Forum into a Newcomers & Guests Lounge.
Move the new Members Only Main Forum to first on the menu and the new Newcomers & Guests Lounge to second on the menu.
Move all currently existing threads which have reached at least two pages into the new Members Only Main Forum.

May 24, 2020

Thank you so much to those members and guests who expressed support for my proposal. As some of you posted above, I followed the idea of keeping it simple, and also compromising between the current situation, and finding ways to make things better, while still keeping BW available to guests. The main point of allowing guests, however, should be to encourage them to register as members. The website should not welcome guests who only visit to spread negativity and incite arguments. Let's try to be kind.

Larry · May 24, 2020

Dear members & guests,

In view of relaxation on Circuit Breaker next coming week, I may have to return to my old usual life with little time available for the forum. And as the originator of this topic, I would like to make a brief summary & recommending two action plans for your consideration.

Regards,

Action #1: Total Shut Down on Politics

Five days had passed-by since this topic was posted on last Friday evening, there were 87 replies (including myself) up to this morning (Wednesday) 11.30 am.

On my open letter, 3 contentious issues were highlighted, i.e. Politics, Trolling & Bickering. As things went on, situation is getting uglier, with lots of trolling, whereas politics was untouched with no discussion.

It seemed to me, there is political apathy among most members, that’s good, it may help to adopt my proposed changes much easier. I like to make point #2 proposal on top of the original point #1,

Ban any discussion on Singapore’s politics,
Ban any & every discussion on our governing political leaders (revised version).

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On point #1, no discussion allowed of Singapore’s politics, nothing has change & is in line with ‘G.M.’s desire.

As explained previously, politics is policies & activities approved by government, via official gazette or passing into law.

For example, you dislike the virtual marriage solemnization just passed as law, but so what? Just keep quiet, don't criticize & comment in this forum.

I made a comprehensive survey & no relevant example except this topic, "All about Covid-19 Discussion in Singapore". This is an interesting finding, matching the political apathy as observed currently.

Allow me to digress a little.

It might be more appropriate to amend the title as “All News about Covid-19 in Singapore”, remove ‘discussion’ & concentrate on ‘news’. ‘Since u r here’ had done a good job on reporting news highlights from Ministry of Health, Lianhe Zaoboa, CNA & etc.

Anyhow, since circuit breaker is currently a hot subject, we must disallow relevant discussions, on why social distancing, why work from home & etc.

For the future, the golden rule would be whenever a new policy is in place, take specific attention, bar such discussions

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On point #2, this is newly added by me, i.e. to ban any & every discussion on our governing political leaders.

What trigger me to have the new thought? Well, it boiled down to my participation about poor performance by one female political leader, taken place in that hateful topic, despite the issue is non-political, more on individual IQ & EQ. The result was we didn't see eye to eye with a moderator, the topic is now relocated to Members’ Lounge.

I did a self-deliberation & have now changed my mind, recommending following changes to be in place for the forum:

1. Disallow name mentioning to all governing political leaders, spouses & immediate family members.

2. Total banning of their news, in regardless is good, is bad or ugly. Examples such as misspoken during press conference or speech. News on promotion, reassignment, demotion & etc. are also included. After all you wouldn’t be rewarded in relaying their errors, you might even get into troubles.

3. Lastly, do not gossip on their personal life, what they shop, clothing, favorite food & etc., which has no concern on us. It isn’t important to us, don’t give two hoots on them.

Therefore, for the topic “All about Covid-19 Discussion in Singapore”, by deleting the arguments on minister conduct, plus improper inputs about staff salary (16th 546 pm), can you trust PAP (17th 330 pm) & maids running away during circuit breaker (18th 750 pm) (Sorry, no feel offended if yours are mentioned), the topic would be perfect, exemplary & safe.

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I strongly believe the two-points proposal would completely eradicate potential troubles against the authority, this must have been music to the moderator’s ears.

In this aspect, to revise & update the posting guidelines are necessary.

Action #2: Re-organizing The Forum

The most problematic issue currently facing this forum is trolling. Since there were not too many bickering being found, as such I will lump all unimportant quarrels together with trolling.

Let have a rehearse on the term trolling.

What is TROLLING? It is about posting of inflammatory or controversial messages, as to create discord, quarrels or upset in social media.

In the early years after joining the forum as member, I devoted my evening on penning my life story: Forbidden Attraction, spending little time over the forum.

Were there disturbances (known as trolling now) during the early years when posting my story? Oh yeah, I got no exception too. There were nasty remarks on my postings, complained about my poor English, wrong spelling, boring contents, incredibly long-winded etc.

Nevertheless, the situations then were tolerable, upon supports & rebuttals coming from readers & fans. Now I realize what I had encountered was a form of trolling, a new vocabulary to me. Wows, a social media’s term, now I know.

On severity, those I’d faced previously were nowhere comparable against what I am facing now since working from home & upon posting of this topic.

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I started my work from home on 23 March, two weeks ahead of April 7, the actual day when the Circuit Breaker commenced.

I have two laptops for my use. One taken from office & with virtual conferencing facility, solely on office works, talking to staff & overseas clients. The other one is my own, use mainly on stock trading, touring web page ‘Malaysiakini’ & this forum. Switching in-between the two laptops which gives tremendous time saving, the privilege & convenience I could never have prior to working from home.

I am telling you this, i.e. it is a real eye opener from the extra time spent in the forum so far. To quote a Chinese proverb: 五味杂陈 mixed feeling, however sadness overriding happiness.

No deny, there were good, healthy, joyous & constructive exchanges in-between guest & member, member to member & guest to guest. However, there are also postings can be classified as spams, trolling & bickering, the contents which I deemed to be shocking, unbelievable, threatening, illogical, childish & idealistic. The origins are mostly from guests & a limited few from members.

妖魔鬼怪 Demons & ghosts, just name it, we all have it. Not only these, there are also 'out of topic' or replies coming from outer space.

Personally, I received a real nasty troll, please read:

Larry, you need to seek a psychologist, your postings show you are in a deep psychological trauma in need of a fix. You need to get out of this rut. Go seek help.

Posted Wednesday at 1131 am by Guest you need to seek help

I waited till 308 pm same day to make an indirect response via quoting Steve5380 post. Because prior to that, I’d already promised not to participate & response to all guests (with exception). Thankyou Steve, otherwise, I will have to wait for any other member making a reply to him. Following is my indirect reply:

(Addressing to Steve

Thank you on your rebuttal as I had promised not to response.

"Psychological Trauma"???? Goodness, where he got this terminology & how clear he understanding it? How could he justify I need a fix based on my postings?

This is the kind of 江湖医生 quack (mountebank) we hate to talk about, damn... Ha-ha-ha... purely talk cock & sing song.

* A suggestion to him: please standby a dictionary by his side if he happen to read my reply to you.

There is another example targeting on member ‘Since y o u r here’, you can find on topic ‘About CB’.

@Since u r here, can you please keep all your garbage in the cold palace Members' Lounge COVID-19 Singapore thread instead of spilling them all over the place here in the Main Forum? You have that thread all for yourself over there now, what more do you want here?? Posted Thursday 814 am by Guest Guest

And a seconder ‘Guest sick of surah’ post echoed him, dated Thursday 630 pm.

totally totally tired of his postings!

hard to comprehend his nonsense English, and pathetic quotes and links

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I start to realize by now the wide spread of trolling in this forum, its severity & impacts to some members.

But who are these trollers you may ask?

All fingers would point towards the guests. Apparently correct, but not necessary 100% is true. There are complexity facing the question.

· member own another guest nick - for any purpose & reason you are to imagine,

· guest owns more than one nickname,

· no legal liability so long as not to conflict with the law,

· painless penalty from the moderator.

But till now, I fail to understand how one same IP address can be used by multiple nicknames?

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I am proposing the following changes to the forum:

#1. The Main Forum is only for members,

#2. Rename Members’ Lounge to Public Lounge, for both guests & members,

#3. Relocate all existing postings created by guests in Main Forum to Public Lounge,

#4. All current topics in Members’ Lounge stay put in the renamed Public Lounge,

#5. Moderators have absolute authority to hide undesirable posts regardless coming from guest or member as a form of painless penalty,

#6. The purpose of hiding an undesirable post is not to affect the whole topic which will be demoted to Flaming Room under current practice,

#7. Any individual is permitted to make appeal on the hide post, through private conversation with the moderator.

#8. Making an appeal in the forum is not allowed, such action warrants an outright rejection.

End.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Larry

Steve5380 · May 25, 2020

On 5/23/2020 at 3:00 AM, Guest Overdosed Yourself said:

First of all, the proposal by Guest Caught Telling Lies is not my proposal, as I was simply agreeing with the proposal made by another guest.

You have both missed my point and also taken sentence fragments out of context. Some members have been demanding that the moderators get rid of all guest posting access for more than 10 years. The moderators have repeatedly posted that they want to keep allowing guest access. So the next step is a discussion of how to allow guest access while also protecting the members from ridiculous trolls.

Those need to be the parameters of this conversation. Any other "pie in the sky" or "green cheese from the moon" will not happen. The moderators have made that clear. So please focus on what is realistic and actually possible. Otherwise you are wasting time becase the moderators don't want to completely get rid of guests. That is how you need to be thinking to convince the moderators to change anything.

With those limits in mind, that is why I agreed with Guest Loquacious Larry Laminator, in regard to his support for Guest Caught Telling Lies.

Guest Overdosed Yourself

Guest Loquacious Larry Laminator

Guest Caught Telling Lies

.....

LOL! LOL! I get a kick out of guest's names. Is there a limit in the length of guest names? If not, you have so much possibilities for creativity :lol:

17 hours ago, Guest Caught Telling Lies said:

Thank you so much to those members and guests who expressed support for my proposal. As some of you posted above, I followed the idea of keeping it simple, and also compromising between the current situation, and finding ways to make things better, while still keeping BW available to guests. The main point of allowing guests, however, should be to encourage them to register as members. The website should not welcome guests who only visit to spread negativity and incite arguments. Let's try to be kind.

I am not giving preference to someone who is caught telling lies. I give your idea the same standing as other proposals. I see it no more and no less simple than other proposals.

What is common in your and other proposals is the idea that the Main Forum should be limited to members. A second forum may exist accepting also guests' posts.

And, what is very easy to agree on, things should be set up in such a way that we will prefer to hang out in the Main Forum, paying less attention to the guest's forum.

May 25, 2020

Auntie Larry, as a "Guest" I also have a fair share of trolling from members. It is also common to read post like " you need to seek a psychologist,. Go seek help, Go get a life, Stop wasting your time here, hideous freak behind the keyboard, ....etc", and various unflattering sarcasm from very self-righteous individual (Guest or member) who think they have all the act together in their real life and want none of others who took time to voice their own feelings.

You suggested that convit-19 news should go without any discussion, there is no point (no point at all), to even start a topic mainly on news alone. Convit-19 news are already all over the social media and you can even read it on Youtube or on TV/paper news. The fact that it was brought into a "forum", is to create discussions and sharing of thoughts and there is no other reason to start a topic than that.

Politics discussions is not always a bad thing either. It affects everyone in our everyday life, not only just gay people. There is no need to further suppress our feelings & voices and then fall prey to silence injustice, not that such discussion are more "regular" than sex and porn topics here.

The bottom line is, we should live with clear conscience to voice our views (not for the sake of postings of course, nor simply bitching around). We should avoid being "politically correct", static, motherhood, self-righteous, too one dimensional, zombie-lite, elitist, smack of arrogance...etc, which this country has almost no lack of such characters (highlighted in bold blue) and we do not need them in this forum . If trying to toe the line as with main-stream's etiquette of doing thing, it kills every sense of our well-beings as a thinking human. Not that I am saying main steam media cannot be trusted, but it certainly can never be objective. This forum should not head into that direction. Be thankful that we still have this forum to fall back on, in an imperfect and chaotic world.

Parting Shot: your suggestions are akin to re-arranging all your 10 fingers, and still look like a pair of hand. Spare moderators the trauma of carrying out such "surgery" which I can still live without, even when I shared similar sentiments with you.

Steve5380 · May 25, 2020

Hi Larry,

I want to thank you for your dedication to improve the forum, as manifested by your creation of this "Open Letter".

We agree on many issues, and we have a good rapport due to our common interests and points of view.

I want to take the opportunity to comment on your latest "Actions":

Action #1: Total Shut Down on Politics

Why? It is true that there is a sedition law in Singapore that restricts the degree of criticism of the government. But a TOTAL SHUTDOWN?

Has BW received notifications from the government that it is in violation of the law due to some subversive posting?

What about freedom of expression on social issues? For example, allowing "virtual marriage solemnization" during the pandemic, isn't this issue more "social" than "politics"?

I didn't know anything of this new law, but... why should any comment about it be silenced?

Are you a supporter of a totalitarian government, with suppression of free press and freedom of expression?

Should a GAY FORUM remain silent on opinions about 377A? Should members be silenced in their arguments in favor of repealing this law?

Action #2: Re-organizing The Forum

We agree about improving the Forum. But should it go as far as deep re-organizing?

Your list of changes is VERY LONG. (only two less than the Ten Commandments)

It reflects that you have a very jovial spirit: " let's fix this world once and for all. It is already overdue. Let's start from scratch NOW. "

There are some sayings that help contain the positive exuberance of youth:

"we should not fix that what is not broken"

"the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Well... these may be a little strong. But one reality is that this forum is working today like a well lubricated machine, thanks to the group of people who designed and maintain the site.

"chi va piano va sano e va lontano" or "piano piano sa va lontano"

.

Edited May 25, 2020 by Steve5380

May 25, 2020

1 hour ago, Guest Aunty Lucy said:

Auntie Larry, as a "Guest" I also have a fair share of trolling from members. It is also common to read post like " you need to seek a psychologist,. Go seek help, Go get a life, Stop wasting your time here, hideous freak behind the keyboard, ....etc", and various unflattering sarcasm from very self-righteous individual (Guest or member) who think they have all the act together in their real life and want none of others who took time to voice their own feelings.

You suggested that convit-19 news should go without any discussion, there is no point (no point at all), to even start a topic mainly on news alone. Convit-19 news are already all over the social media and you can even read it on Youtube or on TV/paper news. The fact that it was brought into a "forum", is to create discussions and sharing of thoughts and there is no other reason to start a topic than that.

Politics discussions is not always a bad thing either. It affects everyone in our everyday life, not only just gay people. There is no need to further suppress our feelings & voices and then fall prey to silence injustice, not that such discussion are more "regular" than sex and porn topics here.

The bottom line is, we should live with clear conscience to voice our views (not for the sake of postings of course, nor simply bitching around). We should avoid being "politically correct", static, motherhood, self-righteous, too one dimensional, zombie-lite, elitist, smack of arrogance...etc, which this country has almost no lack of such characters (highlighted in bold blue) and we do not need them in this forum . If trying to toe the line as with main-stream's etiquette of doing thing, it kills every sense of our well-beings as a thinking human. Not that I am saying main steam media cannot be trusted, but it certainly can never be objective. This forum should not head into that direction. Be thankful that we still have this forum to fall back on, in an imperfect and chaotic world.

Parting Shot: your suggestions are akin to re-arranging all your 10 fingers, and still look like a pair of hand. Spare moderators the trauma of carrying out such "surgery" which I can still live without, even when I shared similar sentiments with you.

I love you, Aunty Lucy... LOL!

May 25, 2020

7 hours ago, Larry said:

I strongly believe the two-points proposal would completely eradicate potential troubles against the authority, this must have been music to the moderator’s ears.

In this aspect, to revise & update the posting guidelines are necessary.

Action #2: Re-organizing The Forum

The most problematic issue currently facing this forum is trolling. Since there were not too many bickering being found, as such I will lump all unimportant quarrels together with trolling.

Let have a rehearse on the term trolling.

What is TROLLING? It is about posting of inflammatory or controversial messages, as to create discord, quarrels or upset in social media.

In the early years after joining the forum as member, I devoted my evening on penning my life story: Forbidden Attraction, spending little time over the forum.

Were there disturbances (known as trolling now) during the early years when posting my story? Oh yeah, I got no exception too. There were nasty remarks on my postings, complained about my poor English, wrong spelling, boring contents, incredibly long-winded etc.

Nevertheless, the situations then were tolerable, upon supports & rebuttals coming from readers & fans. Now I realize what I had encountered was a form of trolling, a new vocabulary to me. Wows, a social media’s term, now I know.

On severity, those I’d faced previously were nowhere comparable against what I am facing now since working from home & upon posting of this topic.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I started my work from home on 23 March, two weeks ahead of April 7, the actual day when the Circuit Breaker commenced.

I have two laptops for my use. One taken from office & with virtual conferencing facility, solely on office works, talking to staff & overseas clients. The other one is my own, use mainly on stock trading, touring web page ‘Malaysiakini’ & this forum. Switching in-between the two laptops which gives tremendous time saving, the privilege & convenience I could never have prior to working from home.

I am telling you this, i.e. it is a real eye opener from the extra time spent in the forum so far. To quote a Chinese proverb: 五味杂陈 mixed feeling, however sadness overriding happiness.

No deny, there were good, healthy, joyous & constructive exchanges in-between guest & member, member to member & guest to guest. However, there are also postings can be classified as spams, trolling & bickering, the contents which I deemed to be shocking, unbelievable, threatening, illogical, childish & idealistic. The origins are mostly from guests & a limited few from members.

妖魔鬼怪 Demons & ghosts, just name it, we all have it. Not only these, there are also 'out of topic' or replies coming from outer space.

Personally, I received a real nasty troll, please read:

Larry, you need to seek a psychologist, your postings show you are in a deep psychological trauma in need of a fix. You need to get out of this rut. Go seek help.

       Posted Wednesday at 1131 am by Guest you need to seek help

I waited till 308 pm same day to make an indirect response via quoting Steve5380 post. Because prior to that, I’d already promised not to participate & response to all guests (with exception). Thankyou Steve, otherwise, I will have to wait for any other member making a reply to him. Following is my indirect reply:

(Addressing to Steve

Thank you on your rebuttal as I had promised not to response.

"Psychological Trauma"???? Goodness, where he got this terminology & how clear he understanding it? How could he justify I need a fix based on my postings?

This is the kind of 江湖医生 quack (mountebank) we hate to talk about, damn... Ha-ha-ha... purely talk cock & sing song.

* A suggestion to him: please standby a dictionary by his side if he happen to read my reply to you.

There is another example targeting on member ‘Since y o u r here’, you can find on topic ‘About CB’.

@Since u r here, can you please keep all your garbage in the cold palace Members' Lounge COVID-19 Singapore thread instead of spilling them all over the place here in the Main Forum? You have that thread all for yourself over there now, what more do you want here??                               Posted Thursday 814 am by Guest Guest

And a seconder ‘Guest sick of surah’ post echoed him, dated Thursday 630 pm.

totally totally tired of his postings!

hard to comprehend his nonsense English, and pathetic quotes and links

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I start to realize by now the wide spread of trolling in this forum, its severity & impacts to some members.

But who are these trollers you may ask?

All fingers would point towards the guests. Apparently correct, but not necessary 100% is true. There are complexity facing the question.

·         member own another guest nick - for any purpose & reason you are to imagine,

·         guest owns more than one nickname,

·         no legal liability so long as not to conflict with the law,

·         painless penalty from the moderator.

But till now, I fail to understand how one same IP address can be used by multiple nicknames?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I am proposing the following changes to the forum:

#1. The Main Forum is only for members,

#2. Rename Members’ Lounge to Public Lounge, for both guests & members,

#3. Relocate all existing postings created by guests in Main Forum to Public Lounge,

#4. All current topics in Members’ Lounge stay put in the renamed Public Lounge,

#5. Moderators have absolute authority to hide undesirable posts regardless coming from guest or member as a form of painless penalty,

#6. The purpose of hiding an undesirable post is not to affect the whole topic which will be demoted to Flaming Room under current practice,

#7. Any individual is permitted to make appeal on the hide post, through private conversation with the moderator.

#8. Making an appeal in the forum is not allowed, such action warrants an outright rejection.

End.

There's no need to re-invent the square wheel. There's already one at Trevy if that's what you're looking for.

The fact that it's not working there says that we should not do it here. No amount of debating here can decide the issues. Only time through evolution and survival of the fittest decides what works.

Larry · May 25, 2020

On 5/25/2020 at 10:16 AM, Steve5380 said:

Hi Larry,

I want to thank you for your dedication to improve the forum, as manifested by your creation of this "Open Letter".

We agree on many issues, and we have a good rapport due to our common interests and points of view.

I want to take the opportunity to comment on your latest "Actions":

Hi Steve, good afternoon to you, here in Singapore, real hot weather outside. Anyway, nice to interact with you over the forum.

You asked quite a few questions, I will try my best to answer though I’m not a lawyer.

Question: It is true that there is a sedition law in Singapore that restricts the degree of criticism of the government. But a TOTAL SHUTDOWN?

My proposal is to have a total shut down on politics in this forum only. Beyond this forum, I’m not in the capacity to answer.

'Yes', a total shutdown on politics in this forum, coinciding with a policy stated in a locked topic: Objective Of This Forum / Posting Guidelines... (at the top of Main Forum page one)

POSTING GUIDELINES June 1, 2005

1. Refrain from discussing about Singapore politics.

Group political discussions in Singapore are restricted to political parties. We are not one of them. So please refrain from posting anything concerning political parties, elections, political figures, the judiciary etc. in this forum. However, comments on social issues especially regarding gay life in Singapore is encouraged.

Question: Has BW received notifications from the government that it is in violation of the law due to some subversive posting?

Please check with the moderators. But it seemed to me they try to contain this problem all this while.

Question: What about freedom of expression on social issues? For example, allowing "virtual marriage solemnization" during the pandemic, isn't this issue more "social" than "politics"?

Virtual marriage solemnization is part of the politics. On Tuesday May 5, 2020, it was passed by parliament under COVID-19 (Temporary Measures for Solemnization and Registration of Marriages) Bill.

Yeah, marriage is a social activity, but when it is published in law on the procedures, the rules & regulations to be followed, it is one of the government activities comes under the definition of politics.

Question: I didn't know anything of this new law, but... why should any comment about it be silenced?

Already explained as above, it has become a new law now.

Remember the statement: politics is policies & activities approved by government, via official gazette or passing into law.

Question: Are you a supporter of a totalitarian government, with suppression of free press and freedom of expression?

Ha-ha-ha, a definite ‘NO’.

Question: Should a GAY FORUM remain silent on opinions about 377A? Should members be silenced in their arguments in favor of repealing this law?

On 377A, the penal code states this: Any male person who, in public or private, commits, or abets the commission of, or procures or attempts to procure the commission by any male person of, any act of gross indecency with another male person, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years.

Fortunately, I had not observed any discussion or endorsement in this forum.

All court challenges against Section 377A had failed. Anyway, so long as you are not caught publicly, the Government's official policy position is non-enforcement in respect of consensual homosexual acts in private between men.

Question: We agree about improving the Forum. But should it go as far as deep re-organizing?

I don’t like to play with word, should it be improving or reorganizing? So long as current chaotic situation is resolved.

Let’s give it a shot.

Last, last Question: Your list of changes is VERY LONG. (only two less than the Ten Commandments)

No, one more commandment, i.e. one IP address is for one person / nickname only. Any violation found warrants a permanent suspension.

Finally, please allow me to do a rephrase,

"we should fix what is going to break, the road to prosperity is paved with tough decisions".

and

a big thank to the moderators who designed & maintain the site.

Yeah, "slow and steady wins the race", love you, big brother.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Larry

Larry · May 25, 2020

11 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

Guest Overdosed Yourself

Guest Loquacious Larry Laminator

Guest Caught Telling Lies

.....

,

LOL! LOL! I get a kick out of guest's names. Is there a limit in the length of guest names? If not, you have so much possibilities for creativity

If I were you, I would not communicate with them, they are just moving targets / goal-posts, today he can be A, tomorrow B & the next day C.

That's the reason I am ignoring / not responding to the top three guests.

Edited May 25, 2020 by Larry

Steve5380 · May 25, 2020

3 hours ago, Larry said:

Last, last Question: Your list of changes is VERY LONG. (only two less than the Ten Commandments)

No, one more commandment, i.e. one IP address is for one person / nickname only. Any violation found warrants a permanent suspension.

Finally, please allow me to do a rephrase,

"we should fix what is going to break, the road to prosperity is paved with tough decisions".

and

a big thank to the moderators who designed & maintain the site.

Yeah, "slow and steady wins the race", love you, grandpa.

Hi Larry,

About your ninth commandment: there are so many IP addresses! A cyber savvy person with a proxy server can be anywhere in the world...

Love you too, grandson. Shall Nature keep giving you a long, long life and plenty, plenty of experience!

I also like this video with Doris Day.... Que Sera, Sera...

.

Edited May 25, 2020 by Steve5380

May 25, 2020

I haven't done anything wrong, or caused any problems with anybody, but suit yourselves. Anyway good luck and hopefully the moderators adopt the Main Forum / Public Lounge idea, which is similar to what was proposed by Guest Caught Telling Lies, albeit with different room names. Be well and take care.

Larry · May 26, 2020

13 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

Hi Larry,

Love you too, grandson. Shall Nature keep giving you a long, long life and plenty, plenty of experience!

Sorry, my error. Should be big brother instead.

Larry · May 26, 2020

GUEST CTL’S PROPOSED SOLUTIONS

Convert the current Members Lounge into a Members Only Main Forum.
Convert the current Main Forum into a Newcomers & Guests Lounge.
Move the new Members Only Main Forum to first on the menu and the new Newcomers & Guests Lounge to second on the menu.
Move all currently existing threads which have reached at least two pages into the new Members Only Main Forum

Guest Proposal: Convert the current Members Lounge into a Members Only Main Forum.

My Proposal : Convert the current Members' Lounge into a Public Lounge, for all members & guests.

Guest Proposal: Convert the current Main Forum into a Newcomers & Guests Lounge.

My Proposal : No conversion, strictly to be used by Members only.

Guest Proposal: Move the new Members Only Main Forum to first on the menu and the new Newcomers & Guests Lounge to second on the menu.

My Proposal : No change to the revised Main Forum, to be first on the menu and the revised Public Lounge to second on the menu.

Guest Proposal: Move all currently existing threads which have reached at least two pages into the new Members Only Main Forum

My Proposal : Move all currently existing threads in the main forum if started by guests into Public Lounge.

Compare one by one & see the differences.

May 26, 2020

2 hours ago, Larry said:

Guest Proposal: Convert the current Members Lounge into a Members Only Main Forum.

My Proposal : Convert the current Members' Lounge into a Public Lounge, for all members & guests.

Guest Proposal: Convert the current Main Forum into a Newcomers & Guests Lounge.

My Proposal : No conversion, strictly to be used by Members only.

Guest Proposal: Move the new Members Only Main Forum to first on the menu and the new Newcomers & Guests Lounge to second on the menu.

My Proposal : No change to the revised Main Forum, to be first on the menu and the revised Public Lounge to second on the menu.

Guest Proposal: Move all currently existing threads which have reached at least two pages into the new Members Only Main Forum

My Proposal : Move all currently existing threads in the main forum if started by guests into Public Lounge.

It seems to me that you both end up with the same result either way. The members room ends up first on the list either way. The public (or guest) room ends up second on the list either way. Most threads end up being in the members room either way. The process doesn't matter in my opinion. Ending the disruptions from troll guests is what matters.

May 26, 2020

For the sake of everyone, let me bear a risk to open my futuristic eyes here:

Once changes are made, the number of postings will plunge, traffic became lesser, there is no driving force to comment and then, at each passing day, participation dies off, the mood became gloomier and eventually BW became 面目全非. Even an occassional slight tweak to its background color, would freak the daylight of the last remaining soul. Moderators began to panic and aggressively self postings to resuscitate the dying breath. There is no love without war it once was. Heavy price has already been paid. Undoing BW would take even greater risk and time to stop the tragic without accidentally wiping out all its good history. What could be worse, lost of revenue, lost of interest and eventually, lost of it old school Charm without the present of its livelier guests.

I was shakened by what I saw and struggled to shut my futuristic eyes to prevent my energy from being sucked into it. I woke up trying to regain my breath. Luckily, this forum remain unmolested. Suddently felt weak to stay a little longer in this topic. I need a rest ('scuse me I'm still getting a little choked up here).

Larry · May 26, 2020

Guest Hazily Instructor said,

It seems to me that you both end up with the same result either way. The members room ends up first on the list either way. The public (or guest) room ends up second on the list either way. Most threads end up being in the members room either way. The process doesn't matter in my opinion. Ending the disruptions from troll guests is what matters.

Please don't be too sure.

My Public Lounge is for both guests & members, whereas his Newcomers & Guests Lounge is not for members. As such, his proposal have no interaction in-between members & guests.

His last proposal of retaining the existing threads which have reached at least 2 pages stay put in Main Forum is extremely illogical,

Question #1: What about those threads fell below 2 pages? What is their disposal, to delete from the forum entirely?

Question #2: What about those threads meeting the 2 pages criteria, but with less than 50% or nil participation from the members?

It makes no sense to keep them in Main Forum with little interest from the members.

Pardon my use of a bad proverb: 放屁脱裤 (pull down your trouser to fart), ha-ha, 1 page, 2 pages, damn... what's a smart alec!

Isn't it much easier to do a clean cut, by moving all existing threads which started by guests into Public Forum?

Edited May 26, 2020 by Larry

singalion · May 26, 2020

At this thread I am happy for people coming together and discussing, debating different concepts.

On 5/23/2020 at 4:21 PM, singalion said:

If you speak out why Guests should be able to post on BW, then you should inform us on your reasons and justification permitting Guests to post. But so far you just want guests to post without elaborating the "why" and proposing on how to settle any trolling issues combined with that option.

It is like saying: I m for Magnum ice cream but without saying why you prefer this brand.

On 5/23/2020 at 12:10 PM, Guest Overdosed Yourself said:

Continually making posts pushing to get rid of all guests is not adding POSITIVITY to this conversation, because the moderators already said they won't do it.

While understanding why you dislike guests, you will be better off if you join the CURRENT CONVERSATION, rather than repeatedly bringing up old arguments.

If you want to be constructive, you need to advocate for the BEST COMPROMISE that allows access to guests, but also prevents trolls from hurting members.

I agree with Guest Loquacious Larry Laminator above that the BEST + SIMPLEST PROPOSAL to do exactly that was created by Guest Caught Telling Lies.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #

GUEST CTL’S PROPOSED SOLUTIONS

Convert the current Members Lounge into a Members Only Main Forum.

Convert the current Main Forum into a Newcomers & Guests Lounge.

Move the new Members Only Main Forum to first on the menu and the new Newcomers & Guests Lounge to second on the menu.

Move all currently existing threads which have reached at least two pages into the new Members Only Main Forum.

The above as a refresher (and here my points) :

1) I fail to see from the posts any heavy reason to keep the Guest posting option. Nobody is coming up to say why it is required or why it is it is important for BW to permit Guests to post.

Besides the quite soft approach from Steve5380 on allowing Guest postings in future, I noted all other members here spoke out against allowing Guests to post. The only ones supporting Guest posts are coming from Guests itself. However, all these Guests failed to come up with any persuasive reason to further permit Guests on BW.

Just speculating the Forums at BW would start being boring and having little participation only seems a bit lame to me. Then why are members posting on the Member Forum and Personals all these years? Some of these threads had been more active, moving faster than the Main Forum (even in recent years).

I noted recently for more inappropriate posts being deleted out directly and more expeditiously Seems the Moderators have already taken a new approach towards this.

(Nothing was moved to the Flaming Room since Larry's ban or shortly afterwards but various posts disappeared because deleted away)

We can work for a compromise and have a testing phase for a year. But I personally see the current ills at BW will be just pushed to a new Forum. In my prediction it will end up like the current Main Forum.

2) The current proposal does not resolve the following issues:

- Introduce effective measures to reach out any punishment for violations to Guests similar to those to Members;

- Guests who repeatedly impersonate other Guest nicks;

- Guest who simply exploit the Guest status by posting inappropriate posts (racial, religious, political, trolling, insults etc etc).

Under Guest Caught Telling Lies proposal there is still nothing attending to the biggest existing current issues with BW.

I have not seen any proposal or idea to tackle the existing issues with further permitting Guest postings at BW.

3) In my view, we would not need any interim trial but could directly switch to a Member only Forum for all areas of BW.

It is the most suitable to respond to the known problem areas at BW.

Reason: The punishment measures by BW against violators would reach out to all posts and would not continue to favour Guests. (Reminder: Guest cannot be punished and existing punishment measures do not reach out to Guests as they cannot be banned temporarily or permanently.

Second: The switch is very easy and does not require much technical input or upgrading.

Summary:

No persuasive reasons have been brought up for permitting Guest posts in future.

A switch to Member posting seems the most promising in achieving the aim to tackle current issues with BW.

Edited May 26, 2020 by singalion

May 26, 2020

I don't think Guest Caught Telling Lies meant members can't go into a Newcomers & Guests Lounge. It seems like he assumes most members will not want to go in, but they would still be able to go in if they want, so that is the same situation as your Public Lounge. I guess he should explain it for himself though.

As for the question about threads that are below 2 pages, I assume they would stay in the Newcomers & Guests Lounge, as there would be no need to get rid of them. Also in your proposal, Larry, you forgot to mention also needing to move current Members Lounge threads into a future Main Forum for Members.

May 26, 2020

1 hour ago, singalion said:

Then why are members posting on the Member Forum and Personals all these years? Some of these threads had been more active, moving faster than the Main Forum (even in recent years).

Member forum active because it is all about sex and some self-interest dry topic for the horny. Whereas in the Main forum, you can talk about almost everything under the sun without feeling shy as a guest. The funny thing is, why did Larry not post such serious topic in the " "Member only" Forum"? The reason is crystal from the beginning, she knew her topic won't gain much traction in the "Members only" room and thus she would also forsee the topic will gain much discussion in the main forum with Guess chipping in. The irony seems to speak for itself.

Let's shift this topic back to the Members lounge and let members speak their voices without the inteference of guests. Otherwise , it goes to show that "Guests" contributions are still very much needed and formed an indispensible part of BW genes system.

Larry · May 26, 2020

2 hours ago, singalion said:

1) I fail to see from the posts any heavy reason to keep the Guest posting option. Nobody is coming up to say why it is required or why it is it is important for BW to permit Guests to post... I noted all other members here spoke out against allowing Guests to post.

You may have miss out the comparison I had produced & my proposal, Main Forum & Public Lounge.

Guest Proposal: Convert the current Members Lounge into a Members Only Main Forum.

My Proposal : Convert the current Members' Lounge into a Public Lounge, for all members & guests.

Guest Proposal: Convert the current Main Forum into a Newcomers & Guests Lounge.

My Proposal : No conversion, strictly to be used by Members only.

As a member forum, we have to keep the Main Forum for members, at least superficially. And to reach out wider, we need to have a Public Lounge for all other peoples from all walk of life, regardless they are GLBT or not.

2 hours ago, singalion said:

2) The current proposal does not resolve the following issues:

- Introduce effective measures to reach out any punishment for violations to Guests similar to those to Members;

- Guests who repeatedly impersonate other Guest nicks;

- Guest who simply exploit the Guest status by posting inappropriate posts (racial, religious, political, trolling, insults etc etc).

Yes, the forum needs help. The problems are member own another guest nick & guest owns more than one nickname. The problems can only be solved technically. Do we have IT professional from the forum?

Till now, I fail to understand how one same IP address can be used by multiple nicknames?

2 hours ago, singalion said:

3) In my view, we would not need any interim trial but could directly switch to a Member only Forum for all areas of BW.

It is the most suitable to respond to the known problem areas at BW.

Reason: The punishment measures by BW against violators would reach out to all posts and would not continue to favour Guests. (Reminder: Guest cannot be punished and existing punishment measures do not reach out to Guests as they cannot be banned temporarily or permanently.

Second: The switch is very easy and does not require much technical input or upgrading.

Summary:

No persuasive reasons have been brought up for permitting Guest posts in future.

A switch to Member posting seems the most promising in achieving the aim to tackle current issues with BW.

Sorry, I cannot agree to your suggestion.

singalion · May 26, 2020

1 hour ago, Guest Huh? said:

Member forum active because it is all about sex and some self-interest dry topic for the horny. Whereas in the Main forum, you can talk about almost everything under the sun without feeling shy as a guest. The funny thing is, why did Larry not post such serious topic in the " "Member only" Forum"? The reason is crystal from the beginning, she knew her topic won't gain much traction in the "Members only" room and thus she would also forsee the topic will gain much discussion in the main forum with Guess chipping in. The irony seems to speak for itself.

Let's shift this topic back to the Members lounge and let members speak their voices without the inteference of guests. Otherwise , it goes to show that "Guests" contributions are still very much needed and formed an indispensible part of BW genes system.

Maybe you don't browse so much in the Members' Forum. Here a list of topics just from the first pages of the Members Forum:

- Favourite Underwear Brand?

- Sexual Experience with Uncles

- English Premier League Fans Gather Here!

- What Is Your Biggest / Deep Dark Fantasy /Secret?

- tops..we need to talk..

- Is circumcision needed?

- Large age gap s

- Do we have a healthy Gay Community in Singapore?

I don't see so many topics differing much from the Main Forum. I can probably spot similar topics and discussions at the BW Main Forum. There is a lot of duplicity.

The only difference might be some special topics on cruising spots (Delta Pool, Bedok Ritchie Reservoir, Toilet XYZ at Nex/Fancy Mall and Plaza Sin).

Members at the Member Forum don't have any hesitations to disclose their sexual adventures on this Forum.

Main Forum and Members Forum could have been merged a long time back (if BW had disallowed Guest posts much earlier).

You still did not note that you can register a quite near to anonymous Member Account without any pic, details and telling anything about you. The only thing not anynymous would be your member nick, but you don't need to take your name (Tan Ling Meng) as member nick. What would be the difference if such anonymous Member posts or as a Guest? Actually, there is no difference only this: The Member can be penalised by the Mods through ban, warnings, the Guest cannot.

1 hour ago, Guest Huh? said:

Let's shift this topic back to the Members lounge and let members speak their voices without the inteference of guests. Otherwise , it goes to show that "Guests" contributions are still very much needed and formed an indispensible part of BW genes system.

I find your second comment quite self-defeating. Sorry, if I m blunt, (but not in any attacking manner).

If Members would speak out about allowing Guests in BW, then probably 95% would have voted against Guest posts.

The reason from Larry could have been to give the existing Guests a chance to voice their air on the issue?

Many Guest here actually quoted as reason to be posting as a guest only because they did not want trolling Guests to haunt their Member profiles or repeatedly harass them later on. That's why they preferred to contribute as a Guest.

What does this alone show us again?

I still go back and say: BW does not need Guest posts at all. Anonymous Membership on BW is possible. The public does not know who you are. If BW cannot guarantee to bar or block any permanently irritating Guests for once and good, then it is unfair to the Members (who can suffer punishment if they do not behave well). Due all what is explained above permitting Guests does not make sense for BW.

Edited May 26, 2020 by singalion
t

singalion · May 26, 2020

On 5/25/2020 at 7:03 AM, Larry said:

Dear members & guests,

In view of relaxation on Circuit Breaker next coming week, I may have to return to my old usual life with little time available for the forum. And as the originator of this topic, I would like to make a brief summary & recommending two action plans for your consideration.

Regards,

Sorry, this is not a public listed company and we are having equal shares. You did not direct your proposals to the Moderators.

The Moderators are those who need to consider your proposals. Please don't confuse this.

We are just helpless Members with no voting rights at BW.

Any change must be considered and enacted by the Moderators.

We can just make proposals.

Don't exclude the Moderators.

Don't assume they read every post in details.

We can discuss here eventually until some of our grand grand cousins eventually are gay and these kidsters are still using BW if at that time the internet still exists...

May 26, 2020

2 hours ago, Guest Loquacious Larry Laminator said:

I don't think Guest Caught Telling Lies meant members can't go into a Newcomers & Guests Lounge. It seems like he assumes most members will not want to go in, but they would still be able to go in if they want, so that is the same situation as your Public Lounge. I guess he should explain it for himself though.

That is correct. Members can go into my proposed Guests & Newcomers Lounge (I suppose Public Lounge is a better name but my aim was to convey why the room actually exists). I believe Blowing Wind should be promoting guests who visit to register as members ... and I believe there should be more benefits to being a member ... not a guest.

4 hours ago, Larry said:

His last proposal of retaining the existing threads which have reached at least 2 pages stay put in Main Forum is extremely illogical,

Question #1: What about those threads fell below 2 pages? What is their disposal, to delete from the forum entirely?

Question #2: What about those threads meeting the 2 pages criteria, but with less than 50% or nil participation from the members?

It makes no sense to keep them in Main Forum with little interest from the members.

----------

Isn't it much easier to do a clean cut, by moving all existing threads which started by guests into Public Forum?

This is part of encouraging guests to become members. If you want to participate in the good threads, become a member, rather than an anonymous guest. My point is that the Members Only Main Forum should be the hub of activity. The Public Lounge, as you prefer to call it, would be a starting point. Guests should register after a few visits there.

Steve5380 · May 26, 2020

6 hours ago, singalion said:

At this thread I am happy for people coming together and discussing, debating different concepts.

Please notice that at this exemplary thread there is a happy mix of members AND GUESTS. No difference in the value of the posts.

6 hours ago, singalion said:

1) I fail to see from the posts any heavy reason to keep the Guest posting option. Nobody is coming up to say why it is required or why it is it is important for BW to permit Guests to post.

Besides the quite soft approach from Steve5380 on allowing Guest postings in future, I noted all other members here spoke out against allowing Guests to post. The only ones supporting Guest posts are coming from Guests itself. However, all these Guests failed to come up with any persuasive reason to further permit Guests on BW.

Just speculating the Forums at BW would start being boring and having little participation only seems a bit lame to me. Then why are members posting on the Member Forum and Personals all these years? Some of these threads had been more active, moving faster than the Main Forum (even in recent years).

Nobody? You want another "quite soft approach" from me? I am in favor of not deleting the posting by guests because:

- I see many interesting posts by guests, a little more provocative perhaps, more the expression of a freedom of speech. This should help Singaporeans because one notices that you are somewhat inhibited, maybe one consequence of a lifelong of "sedition law". The double anonymity of being "guest" seems to make posters a little more daring.

- I see BW as a very good site as it is. WE ALL are here TODAY in spite of "guests". This does not mean that improvements could not be made, like Larry's suggestion to just simply switch the guest posting restriction from a future public Lounge to the Main Forum. Period! (sorry Larry about all your other 9 Commandments). And such change could "grandfather" the existing threads (no changes in them) without problems.

- Sudden changes can have unexpected consequences. I lived through the demise of trevvy, and I have not found any SOLID explanation of why it happened. It begun by a sudden change in the look and feel of that forum, the way sections and topics were presented. The new portal was cold and unfriendly, while the previous was warm and inviting. Trevvy REVERSED this change after a while, but it may have been too late. I repeat the advice given to Larry: "don't fix what is not broken".

- I doubt that I am the only one who wants to keep guests here. In this thread we are only a small fraction of the membership, mostly the loud voices for change, while all the other members choose not to participate, either because they implicitly disagree with the "open letter" or they don't care because they are perfectly content the way the site is. To get a realistic idea of how the full membership thinks, this would take a big referendum.

- And finally, I have a personal situation in that I am not bothered by guests. Yes, some one or several frequently attack me directly. But a cyber attack needs two participants: the attacker and the one who suffers the attack. I don't "suffer" ! Maybe the presence of attacking guests can give those sensitive members the opportunity to cultivate a thicker skin and also lose the suffering.

P.D. However, one can see the positive in this "open letter" with the push to get the guests thrown out of BW: it may convince guests to behave better to avoid a potential blocking that would take away all their fun.

.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Steve5380

upshot · May 26, 2020

8 hours ago, Guest Huh? said:

Member forum active because it is all about sex and some self-interest dry topic for the horny. Whereas in the Main forum, you can talk about almost everything under the sun without feeling shy as a guest. The funny thing is, why did Larry not post such serious topic in the " "Member only" Forum"? The reason is crystal from the beginning, she knew her topic won't gain much traction in the "Members only" room and thus she would also forsee the topic will gain much discussion in the main forum with Guess chipping in. The irony seems to speak for itself.

Let's shift this topic back to the Members lounge and let members speak their voices without the inteference of guests. Otherwise , it goes to show that "Guests" contributions are still very much needed and formed an indispensible part of BW genes system.

Sorry to interject but I think you lost the plot.

He is being fair in his intention and by addressing this in a more freely accessed public thread, everyone gets to see his points of view and get everyone's feedback be they regulars or guest moders. I see his action is not about him but a sincere pursuit to improve the situation overall and give each one a voice to air their opinions. So why imply negatively by pouring cold water on what he is doing... or how did you read into his action as being less than sincere and favouring the regulars?

So far my take on this is... Give you something to get your view. Complain. Don't give you any chance to air your view. Complain. heh.

Edited May 26, 2020 by upshot
typo and clarity

Steve5380 · May 26, 2020

11 hours ago, Guest Huh? said:

Member forum active because it is all about sex and some self-interest dry topic for the horny. Whereas in the Main forum, you can talk about almost everything under the sun without feeling shy as a guest. The funny thing is, why did Larry not post such serious topic in the " "Member only" Forum"? The reason is crystal from the beginning, she knew her topic won't gain much traction in the "Members only" room and thus she would also forsee the topic will gain much discussion in the main forum with Guess chipping in. The irony seems to speak for itself.

Let's shift this topic back to the Members lounge and let members speak their voices without the inteference of guests. Otherwise , it goes to show that "Guests" contributions are still very much needed and formed an indispensible part of BW genes system.

Many ideas are exchanged in a good discussion, and you Guest Huh have come up with another welcomed point of view, although one that does not favor the abolitionists.

A view that THIS VERY THREAD benefits from the openness of the MAIN FORUM, and so, others do too.

If this important Open Letter should have been restricted to us serious Members with deep wisdom and jurisprudence, then Larry would have posted it in the Members Lounge. Larry is very intelligent and smart, and he chose the option that gave him maximum exposure and universal participation. And it turns out that it worked! It is a positive, progressive thread.

You realized, like many of us, that the Members' Lounge is a boring forum full of personal sex stuff that some members post there because, being "restricted", gives them more privacy. Other threads have landed there because they were very active in the Main Forum, so moderators decided to pass them to the Member's Lounge to calm them down by making them inaccessible to guests. I don't like to frequent this Lounge and I don't have visibility of any of it from the Main Forum, my first option.

Your post is a good contribution, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Larry · May 27, 2020

Public library, public toilet, public buses, public transport... so easy & so simple, young, old, male, female, anybody & everybody, all are welcome.

Newcomers & Guests Lounge, gosh, what's about old timer, old bird or ex-member, can he come in?

名不正言不顺 : if the names (titles) are incorrect, the words will not carry weight.

Just to admit, on negligence or thinking not thoroughly. It is pointless to make all kind of salvaging explanation. Think & review before posting out.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Larry

May 27, 2020

3 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

Larry is very intelligent and smart, and he chose the option that gave him maximum exposure and universal participation. And it turns out that it worked! It is a positive, progressive thread.

Obviously Larry is very intelligent, she felt entitled as a member and wanted to have all the cakes and eat it. As much as I still beleive BW can be improved slowly, I wouldn't want to boss around to impose on those unpaid, under apppreciated part-timers working relentlessly behind the scenes to maintain this forum.

May 27, 2020

Let's put BW on Circuit Breaker for 2 months, to disallow all Guests/Trolls from posting and see what happen. Short & Sweet Idea. Enough said.

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