Pope Endorses Same-sex Civil Unions

[Steve5380]

“Homosexual people have the right to be in a family. They are children of God,” Pope Francis said in a sit-down interview for the film “Francesco.”

 

 

 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/pope-endorses-same-sex-civil-unions-in-new-documentary-film_n_5f904704c5b6b005f5f1ac35

 

ROME (AP) — Pope Francis endorsed same-sex civil unions for the first time as pope while being interviewed for the feature-length documentary “Francesco,” which had its premiere at the Rome Film Festival on Wednesday.

The papal thumbs up came midway through the film that delves into issues Francis cares about most, including the environment, poverty, migration, racial and income inequality, and the people most affected by discrimination.

“Homosexual people have the right to be in a family. They are children of God,” Francis said in one of his sit-down interviews for the film. “What we have to have is a civil union law; that way they are legally covered.”

 

While serving as archbishop of Buenos Aires, Francis endorsed civil unions for gay couples as an alternative to same-sex marriages. However, he had never come out publicly in favor of civil unions as pope.

 

One of the main characters in the documentary is Juan Carlos Cruz, the Chilean survivor of clergy sexual abuse whom Francis initially discredited during a 2018 visit to Chile.

Cruz, who is gay, said that during his first meetings with the pope in May 2018, Francis assured him that God made Cruz gay. Cruz tells his own story in snippets throughout the film, chronicling both Francis’ evolution on understanding sexual abuse as well as to document the pope’s views on gay people.

 

This news hit me this morning and it made my day.   WE ARE CHILDREN OF GOD he said, without any reservations added. 

Also Francis assured Cruz that God made him gay!   Isn't this a recognition that homosexuality is GENETIC, not an act of will ??

The Pope is the religious leader of 1.2 billion Catholics.  There are nearly 6% of Singaporeans who are Catholic, or about 300,000 people.  Will the government of SG be able to hang onto 377A  when Catholics support same-sex unions?

 

Progress seems to be moving fast.  Still what needs to come is the religious decriminalization of homosexual sex.  But Catholicism is already against sex outside a valid marriage or is not for procreation.

 

I feel so proud of Pope Francis,  who was born and officiated in the same city I was born and raised, Buenos Aires.  We Argentinians have a reputation of being arrogant,  but we are also good people.  

[wilfgene]

What is his attitude and measures towards those against him?  Excommunication or crusade?  Inquisition?

[Dart]

Great News!

[Steve5380]

2 hours ago, wilfgene said:

What is his attitude and measures towards those against him?  Excommunication or crusade?  Inquisition?

 

There is surely much politics in the Vatican.  Francis does not go against insignificant heretic Catholics like me,  this is something of the past.  But he has demoted some high ranking prelates, "princes of the Church",  who strongly opposed his reforms.  Something like a CEO demoting one of his department heads.   Nothing bloody  

[Guest Guest]

The problem that Christian and Catholics have against gays never came from the God that they were praying to. The problem has always been coming from their own church leaders and individuals who were using religion against the PLUs. So what even if God, and much less the Pope, doesn't condemn gays? You think the homophobes in the church will change their stance overnight? 

 

Dream on.... Dream away... 

[Steve5380]

9 minutes ago, Guest Guest said:

The problem that Christian and Catholics have against gays never came from the God that they were praying to. The problem has always been coming from their own church leaders and individuals who were using religion against the PLUs. So what even if God, and much less the Pope, doesn't condemn gays? You think the homophobes in the church will change their stance overnight? 

 

Dream on.... Dream away... 

 

Of course the problem comes from the leaders of the organized religions and the people within the organizations who create their doctrines.  Any agnostic will tell you that God does not care if you fuck a woman or a man. 

 

But BECAUSE it comes from the church leaders and other religious professionals  IT IS SO IMPORTANT when leaders become more accepting of homosexuality.   When THEY say that we gays are children of God, and God has made us gay.  If you don't recognize the significance of this, your brain is not working.

 

The Catholic Church is a rigid hierarchical organization.  If the Pope says that same-sex unions are acceptable, up to the last priest will have to say the same.  (BTW, there is nothing in the Bible and Catechism that says that same-sex unions are NOT acceptable,  since no one thought about this unions until very recently. and this opinion was derived from some interpretation of the writings of apostle Paul who said in Romans that the people he described were deserving of death.  "Gays" and "homosexuals" did not exist in biblical times,  they were instead "sinners".)

[InBangkok]

I am neither Catholic nor religious. Perhaps not quite an agnostic but very close to it. But I have been impressed by Pope Francis ever since his election to the Papacy. He seems genuinely to be a man of the common people whereas many of his predecessors. perhaps with the exception of John XXIII and the month-long reign of John Paul 1, have seen themselves as Princes of the Church.

 

I hate to think of the burdens he faces in his office, the more so when he is surrounded by a large bunch of ultra conservatives who clearly loathe the direction he is trying to forge for the Roman Catholic Church. We know he has made statements about change in the past only to be reigned back by the stifling Vatican  bureaucracy. As a man of 83 years, one wonders how many of his pronouncements will in fact become Church teaching. His own views on civil unions for gays are not new. Will they be adopted by his Church? Sadly, I think not because time is no longer on his side. The excellent movie "The Two Popes" suggests that   Francis could have been elected in place of the ultra conservative dogmatic Cardinal Ratzinger who became Benedict XVI in 2005. Had that happened I think Francis would have swept out most of the Vatican old guard and achieved almost all of his goals.

 

I believe Karl Marx was essentially correct when he said, "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulesss conditions. It is the opium of the people." No, I am far from a communist. But when you look at the monotheistic religions, all were formed during times of great trial and misery for most of the population. For many hundreds of years, life on earth for all but the princely and landowning classes was just that - outright misery. The idea of a heaven and hell was a great way of ensuring a relatively peaceful existence and keeping the masses in order. I believe in neither.

 

To misquote Descrates, I exist, therefore I am. When I cease to exist, I am no more, merely a memory for some that will fade and die over time.

[TT2880]

Hello.

 

Congratulations. Especially to those waiting for this moment. Some almost his whole life for this. Finally, his/her liberation is endorsed and confirmed. 

 

Thank you. 

 

 

[Guest Guest]

So what's going to change tomorrow? Answer: Nothing. As a matter of fact, this Pope himself predicted a short "tenure" of 5 years even though he is into his 7th year now. 

So what's going to happen when he "retires"? Answer: The Catholic and Christian world starts going all homophobic again. 

https://time.com/3743995/pope-francis-anniversary-five-years/#:~:text=The papal post is traditionally,has not ruled out retiring.

[Steve5380]

1 hour ago, TT2880 said:

Hello.

 

Congratulations. Especially to those waiting for this moment. Some almost his whole life for this. Finally, his/her liberation is endorsed and confirmed. 

 

Thank you. 

 

 

Thank you, TT2880.  You are a good man!

 

1 hour ago, InBangkok said:

I am neither Catholic nor religious. Perhaps not quite an agnostic but very close to it. But I have been impressed by Pope Francis ever since his election to the Papacy. He seems genuinely to be a man of the common people whereas many of his predecessors. perhaps with the exception of John XXIII and the month-long reign of John Paul 1, have seen themselves as Princes of the Church.

 

I hate to think of the burdens he faces in his office, the more so when he is surrounded by a large bunch of ultra conservatives who clearly loathe the direction he is trying to forge for the Roman Catholic Church. We know he has made statements about change in the past only to be reigned back by the stifling Vatican  bureaucracy. As a man of 83 years, one wonders how many of his pronouncements will in fact become Church teaching. His own views on civil unions for gays are not new. Will they be adopted by his Church? Sadly, I think not because time is no longer on his side. The excellent movie "The Two Popes" suggests that   Francis could have been elected in place of the ultra conservative dogmatic Cardinal Ratzinger who became Benedict XVI in 2005. Had that happened I think Francis would have swept out most of the Vatican old guard and achieved almost all of his goals.

 

 

Pope Francis is nothing short of extraordinary.  I had no knowledge of him during the many years I lived in Buenos Aires,  but I heard of him when he opposed same-sex marriage in Argentine in favor of same-sex unions.  Once he became Pope, of course I followed his path very closely.  My admiration for him surged after watching the following video about his life.  It is a long video, but if you have the patience to see it you will find that your likeness for him is not a coincidence:

 

 

 

 

I doubt that when Francis passes away all his progressive achievements in the church will be reversed.  The genie of goodness may be out of the box.   But what is very probable is that he will be a prime candidate for sainthood.

[lean n mean]

instead of (even for a split second) thinking how many doubts, obstacles and challenges he has to go through to say this in public, these negative bitches just dismiss it like that. If you cannot see the world has changed, please keep your negativity to yourself. If you cannot contribute anything, don't put other's efforts down. That's the very least you can do. If everyone thinks like you, slaves will still be slaves, women will not be voting, u get the drift. If u are a tad more self-aware, you wud realise you are the one that don't or refuses to change. And you think everything has to be all or nothing, like everyone has to accept LGBTQ or else what is the point. Everything is doomed for you. And so, you end up doomed. 

 

 

[Guest Guest]

7 minutes ago, lean n mean said:

instead of (even for a split second) thinking how many doubts, obstacles and challenges he has to go through to say this in public, these negative bitches just dismiss it like that. If you cannot see the world has changed, please keep your negativity to yourself. If you cannot contribute anything, don't put other's efforts down. That's the very least you can do. If everyone thinks like you, slaves will still be slaves, women will not be voting, u get the drift. If u are a tad more self-aware, you wud realise you are the one that don't or refuses to change. And you think everything has to be all or nothing, like everyone has to accept LGBTQ or else what is the point. Everything is doomed for you. And so, you end up doomed. 

 

And I wonder just how many slaves has been killed and how many women has been abused thinking that the world has changed, just because someone says so. As much as you want to be optimistic, reality's still a bitch. 

 

[InBangkok]

32 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

I doubt that when Francis passes away all his progressive achievements in the church will be reversed.  The genie of goodness may be out of the box.   But what is very probable is that he will be a prime candidate for sainthood.

Perhaps not all. But the Catholic Church is a mighty conservative organisation. Look at history. Deeply conservative Popes are often followed by more liberal ones and vice versa. After Pius XII passed (often called "Hitler's Pope"), he was followed by the progressive liberal John XXIII. What happened after he died? The arch conservative Cardinal Montini was appointed and became Paul VI overturning a considerable amount of what John XXIII had achieved. Some decisions of the Second Vatican Council called by John XXIII remained but many were not. Absolute adherence to the Pope's teachings (especially on birth control) was made mandatory. 

 

After his passing, the liberal, joyful John Paul I ascended the Papal Throne. He was like a bright ray of sunshine. But he died aged 65 only 33 days in to his Pontificate. Even today there are some who believe that he was murdered even though it was likely as a result of a heart attack. What then happened? Another arch conservative wrapped in the clothes of a moderate was elected as John Paul II. Benedict XVI who had been John Paul's rottweiler became Pope only because there happened to be a power vacuum amongst the cardinals. Many wanted Bergoglio (later Pope Francis). Others were concerned that his activities during military rule in Argentina would taint him. 

 

I agree Francis will become a quick candidate for sainthood (whatever that really means). But will history repeat itself and his successor be another of the arch conservatives? In that case, it's goodbye to promotion of civil unions for gays. It is simply not supported by anything like a majority of the College of Cardinals.

[wilfgene]

2 hours ago, lean n mean said:

instead of (even for a split second) thinking how many doubts, obstacles and challenges he has to go through to say this in public, these negative bitches just dismiss it like that. If you cannot see the world has changed, please keep your negativity to yourself. If you cannot contribute anything, don't put other's efforts down. That's the very least you can do. If everyone thinks like you, slaves will still be slaves, women will not be voting, u get the drift. If u are a tad more self-aware, you wud realise you are the one that don't or refuses to change. And you think everything has to be all or nothing, like everyone has to accept LGBTQ or else what is the point. Everything is doomed for you. And so, you end up doomed. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, InBangkok said:

Perhaps not all. But the Catholic Church is a mighty conservative organisation. Look at history. Deeply conservative Popes are often followed by more liberal ones and vice versa. After Pius XII passed (often called "Hitler's Pope"), he was followed by the progressive liberal John XXIII. What happened after he died? The arch conservative Cardinal Montini was appointed and became Paul VI overturning a considerable amount of what John XXIII had achieved. Some decisions of the Second Vatican Council called by John XXIII remained but many were not. Absolute adherence to the Pope's teachings (especially on birth control) was made mandatory. 

 

After his passing, the liberal, joyful John Paul I ascended the Papal Throne. He was like a bright ray of sunshine. But he died aged 65 only 33 days in to his Pontificate. Even today there are some who believe that he was murdered even though it was likely as a result of a heart attack. What then happened? Another arch conservative wrapped in the clothes of a moderate was elected as John Paul II. Benedict XVI who had been John Paul's rottweiler became Pope only because there happened to be a power vacuum amongst the cardinals. Many wanted Bergoglio (later Pope Francis). Others were concerned that his activities during military rule in Argentina would taint him. 

 

I agree Francis will become a quick candidate for sainthood (whatever that really means). But will history repeat itself and his successor be another of the arch conservatives? In that case, it's goodbye to promotion of civil unions for gays. It is simply not supported by anything like a majority of the College of Cardinals.

 

[jlone]

This guy is hot !

[JyT]

The truth is alot people misconceptions about being homosexual as a Christian or Catholic the reason why we catholic n Christians are scared of coming out because we broke the 7 commandments. I do hope that remove honestly speaking.

[auscent]

Pope Francis leads the way in showing there is love and acceptance.

[Steve5380]

7 hours ago, Nightingale said:

 

 

I empathize very much with the story in this video.  I was able to make decisions on the medical treatment of my bf until the end, because I had a "power of attorney", but I lost all legal power after his death.  Fortunately his family loved them, loved us,  and there was no homophobia.  Nonetheless, I think we could have been better prepared, having mutual powers of attorney for medical care, and disposition after death. 

 

In the story, "Shane" should have been more assertive when confronted with the ugliness of Tom's family.  First, not to pay anything and not allow the family to come into their common home and remove anything.  Second, to defy the threats of attack by the father and go with a strong friend to the funeral of his bf.  He had the choice to tell Tom's family that he would go and tell to the news media the threats they made against him to keep him away from his partner's funeral,  and also to file a report with the police about the threats.  After this, they would not have dared to touch him.

 

Why are there people who cannot "live and let live"?  It would be so nice if karma were real!

[Why?]

I find all these statements made by "big shot" are just so superficial.  It is not about who say what, at which period of time.  The bottom line is about some straight people still find gay people disgusting, religious or not, and they didn't want gay people in the backyward.   I don't see what magnificiant outcome is going to happen since the catholic and the protestants are never on good term and so are muslim who still live in their own bubble of ice age.  Life goes on, and gay will still be hated like before.  It doesn't take a genius to know that.  In fact, our existence should not be dictated by anyone approval. 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Why?

[Guest Santai]

In male dominated world and society, only women able to produce anything else is unnatural and should be suppressed or put under the radar.

[Guest Guest]

26 minutes ago, Why? said:

I find all these statements made by "big shot" are just so superficial.  It is not about who say what, at which period of time.  The bottom line is about some straight people still find gay people disgusting, religious or not, and they didn't want gay people in the backyward.   I don't see what magnificiant outcome is going to happen since the catholic and the protestants are never on good term and so are muslim who still live in their own bubble of ice age.  Life goes on, and gay will still be hated like before.  It doesn't take a genius to know that.  In fact, our existence should not be dictated by anyone approval. 

 

Exactly! And yet there are people here who thinks that these words are going to be done radical game-changers in any way! Lol! Let us sit down and wait for some homophobic pastors or preachers who changed their stance just because the Pope says so. 

[InBangkok]

56 minutes ago, Why? said:

I find all these statements made by "big shot" are just so superficial.  It is not about who say what, at which period of time.  The bottom line is about some straight people still find gay people disgusting, religious or not, and they didn't want gay people in the backyward.   I don't see what magnificiant outcome is going to happen since the catholic and the protestants are never on good term and so are muslim who still live in their own bubble of ice age.  Life goes on, and gay will still be hated like before.  It doesn't take a genius to know that.  In fact, our existence should not be dictated by anyone approval. 

I agree statements are basically meaningless without action. But the second part of your post does not ring true. Change does happen over time. For much of the last 500 years, Europe was wrapped up in religious wars between Catholic leaders and Protestant leaders. These have ceased. Protestant England has  ruled mainly Catholic Northern Ireland for centuries. Last century this led to decades of mindless violence based solely on religious hatred. The 1999 Good Friday Agreement brought these to an end.

 

A leader like Pope Francis has made a start on gay unions. But he rules a very conservative organisation. If - and it really is a very big if given his age - he can generate change within the Curia he may have started a process of change. We will have to wait until the next pope is elected to see if any real change actually happens. I also agree no one should dictate our existence. But if we are going to live in societies in our world, there have to be rules. The sad fact is that 21st century rules as they relate to gays are based on falsehoods.  

[Steve5380]

1 hour ago, Why? said:

 

Life goes on, and gay will still be hated like before.  It doesn't take a genius to know that.  In fact, our existence should not be dictated by anyone approval. 

 

 

It doesn't take a genius to question your statements.  Where have you been in these contemporary times?

 

You haven't heard of same-sex marriage in many countries where it didn't exist in the past?   Have you heard of the American Psychiatric Society that in 1973 ended the holding of homosexuality as a disease?   You haven't seen that in spite of having anti-gay laws in their books some countries like Singapore and Malaysia don't apply these laws anymore?  Haven't you heard of ever more established Christian denominations become accepting of gays?  Haven't you heard of increasing protection of LGBTQs in anti-discrimination laws? 

 

And in which world do you live that your existence is not dictated by someone's approval,  person or entity?

 

25 minutes ago, InBangkok said:

 

 I also agree no one should dictate our existence. But if we are going to live in societies in our world, there have to be rules. The sad fact is that 21st century rules as they relate to gays are based on falsehoods. 

 

 

You can choose to live free of anyone who could dictate your existence.  There are still some uninhabited islands in the world,  maybe in Indonesia, Philippines, or some spot in the Pacific?  

 

What rules based on falsehoods related to gays you find in the 21st century that didn't exist in the 20th century or earlier?  

[InBangkok]

7 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

What rules based on falsehoods related to gays you find in the 21st century that didn't exist in the 20th century or earlier?  

My reference to falsehoods had nothing to do with specific centuries. It refers to falsehoods perpetrated by religions down the ages virtually since their very existence millennia ago.

[Why?]

48 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

 

You can choose to live free of anyone who could dictate your existence.  There are still some uninhabited islands in the world,  maybe in Indonesia, Philippines, or some spot in the Pacific?  

 

What rules based on falsehoods related to gays you find in the 21st century that didn't exist in the 20th century or earlier?  

You need to differentiate between true acceptance and tokenism.  "Acceptance" or tokenism could be a pawn to buy vote and gain popularity and then return to the old habbit of hating the gay, depending on political situation of the day.  We are not a chess on other people play board, we are the master of our life.  Gay existence, is nature creation, not based on human definition and approval to determine whether you should be changed or existed by some elderly states man words.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Why?

[Guest Popeye]

May I ask why only civil union not marriage? Pope is pooping on us, still or doing tango?

[jlone]

 

[Guest Guest]

9 minutes ago, Nightingale said:

Pope’s  Documentary  Comments  Endorsing  Same-sex  Civil  Unions  'Not  Considered' Official  Teaching:  Singapore  Catholic  Church

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/pope-francis-documentary-same-sex-marriage-catholic-church-13341922

 

The above news link by Singapore's side is nothing surprising at all.  (This kind of reaction is to be expected from the conservatives)  But let's view the Pope's message as a kind of talk of glasnost and perestroika (which irked the Soviet bureaucrats) by the more liberal-minded Gorbachev in the 1980s -  a small step for the gays but a radical step in church history.

 

[Steve5380]

7 hours ago, Guest Popeye said:

May I ask why only civil union not marriage? Pope is pooping on us, still or doing tango?

 

The Catholic Church has seven sacraments,  ceremonies that impart divine grace.  Marriage is one of them,  and one of its central parts is procreation.  For Catholicism, the only purpose of sex is procreation.  Therefore the Catholic church cannot officiate religious marriage to a same-sex couple.  But there is nothing in the doctrine that is in the way of unions for companionship. Nothing that prevents a same-sex couple to have the same standing as a married couple under the secular law. 

[Steve5380]

2 hours ago, Nightingale said:

Pope’s  Documentary  Comments  Endorsing  Same-sex  Civil  Unions  'Not  Considered' Official  Teaching:  Singapore  Catholic  Church

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/pope-francis-documentary-same-sex-marriage-catholic-church-13341922

 

The above news link by Singapore's side is nothing surprising at all.  (This kind of reaction is to be expected from the conservatives)  But let's view the Pope's message as a kind of talk of glasnost and perestroika (which irked the Soviet bureaucrats) by the more liberal-minded Gorbachev in the 1980s -  a small step for the gays but a radical step in church history.

 

Exactly.  The Singapore Catholic Church has not received an "official" notice about same-sex unions.  But it does not say that same-sex unions are wrong and against Catholic doctrine. Francis supports same-sex unions but not same-sex marriage, which would conflict with the sacrament of marriage.  He is very conscious of his role as head of the Church to obey the doctrine of his Church. 

 

Francis has recently released a new Encyclical,  "Fratelli tutti" about fraternity and social friendship:

 

https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2020-10/fratelli-tutti-pope-fraternity-social-friendship-short-summary.html

 

This new encyclical already breaks out of the mold, and it is not hard to imagine that he will follow some day with a similar official directive about same-sex unions. What we got these days is just a GLIMPSE of what can and most probably will follow.  Francis is a pope of action!

 

Same-sex unions is in reality all what we need, an equality with marriage in all matters of law.  This takes care of the situation described in the video you posted earlier.  We gays may not receive some preaching and sprinkling with holy water but...  who cares ?  

 

 

[Steve5380]

8 hours ago, Why? said:

You need to differentiate between true acceptance and tokenism.  "Acceptance" or tokenism could be a pawn to buy vote and gain popularity and then return to the old habbit of hating the gay, depending on political situation of the day.  We are not a chess on other people play board, we are the master of our life.  Gay existence, is nature creation, not based on human definition and approval to determine whether you should be changed or existed by some elderly states man words.

 

Like black people cannot change the color of their skin,  we homosexuals cannot change our sexual orientation.  Like them, we should be the masters of our life.  But as soon as we are part of a society, we are pawns in the chess board of this society.  This is the case for any human creature on the planet.

 

Here in the US,  the movement "black lives matter" is not so much about lack of acceptance, but lack of social EQUALITY, something different.  The police force does not need to love blacks, but they should treat them the same as they treat whites. After all,  "black existence is nature's creation, not based on human definition and approval", as you wrote.   And this equality has to come from persons of authority, who write the laws and see them enforced.  It is exactly the same with gays.

[Dart]

On 10/22/2020 at 8:58 AM, Guest Guest said:

The problem that Christian and Catholics have against gays never came from the God that they were praying to. The problem has always been coming from their own church leaders and individuals who were using religion against the PLUs. So what even if God, and much less the Pope, doesn't condemn gays? You think the homophobes in the church will change their stance overnight? 

 

Dream on.... Dream away... 

 

On 10/22/2020 at 5:27 PM, JyT said:

The truth is alot people misconceptions about being homosexual as a Christian or Catholic the reason why we catholic n Christians are scared of coming out because we broke the 7 commandments. I do hope that remove honestly speaking.

 

The misconception of the Christian church concerning homosexuality is stemmed from the mistranslation of the biblical scriptures. The original sciptures were written in Ancient Hebrew, Latin & Greek and had been translated into English. Certain words in these languages remain ambiguous because they do not have the exact meaning to fit the English language. They were translated by translators who were already ingrained with negative impression towards homosexuality. Therefore, there is human intervention involved here. Moreover, conventional churches take these scriptures out of context to fit their contempt and hatred towards gays.

[Guest Try and see]

Don't get your hopes up.

 

Catholic stance on marriage remains unchanged, says S'pore Catholic Church in response to Pope Francis' remarks

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/catholic-stance-on-marriage-remains-unchanged-says-spore-catholic-church-in-response-to

[JyT]

Oh well that sadly in Sg.. There no Justice and Equality LOL

[Steve5380]

5 hours ago, Guest Try and see said:

Don't get your hopes up.

 

Catholic stance on marriage remains unchanged, says S'pore Catholic Church in response to Pope Francis' remarks

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/catholic-stance-on-marriage-remains-unchanged-says-spore-catholic-church-in-response-to

 

Don't get your hopes down.  All this commotion is about same-sex UNIONS,  not marriages.   Pope didn't say anything about marriage.

 

Wouldn't you like to have legal same-sex unions in Singapore?

 

 

5 hours ago, Dart said:

 

 

The misconception of the Christian church concerning homosexuality is stemmed from the mistranslation of the biblical scriptures. The original sciptures were written in Ancient Hebrew, Latin & Greek and had been translated into English. Certain words in these languages remain ambiguous because they do not have the exact meaning to fit the English language. They were translated by translators who were already ingrained with negative impression towards homosexuality. Therefore, there is human intervention involved here. Moreover, conventional churches take these scriptures out of context to fit their contempt and hatred towards gays.

 

I agree with you,  except that scriptures were written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.  It is said that Jesus spoke mostly in Aramaic,  and the Gospels were written  in common Greek.  IT's INCREDIBLE that a real divinity would trust His Word to translations of translations and copies of copies of copies....  go figure out!

 

But there are and have been so many intelligent people in the Catholic Church.  Like we can understand mistranslation and out of context,  should they not have reached the same conclusions and ended this gay bashing?   One can suspect that there was not only mistake but bad will, a need for SIN like the fish needs WATER 

[jlone]

4 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

Don't get your hopes down.  All this commotion is about same-sex UNIONS,  not marriages.   Pope didn't say anything about marriage.

 

Wouldn't you like to have legal same-sex unions in Singapore?

 

And yet a lot of religious are making a big hula balu against the pope on youtube, when the pope only mentioned all these gays are children of God n need to be protected n accepted. That's all ! 

He didn't mention anything about gay marriages in the Christian faith at all. 

Edited October 24, 2020 by jlone

[jlone]

[Guest Guest]

11 hours ago, Dart said:

 

 

The misconception of the Christian church concerning homosexuality is stemmed from the mistranslation of the biblical scriptures. The original sciptures were written in Ancient Hebrew, Latin & Greek and had been translated into English. Certain words in these languages remain ambiguous because they do not have the exact meaning to fit the English language. They were translated by translators who were already ingrained with negative impression towards homosexuality. Therefore, there is human intervention involved here. Moreover, conventional churches take these scriptures out of context to fit their contempt and hatred towards gays.

 

5 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

Don't get your hopes down.  All this commotion is about same-sex UNIONS,  not marriages.   Pope didn't say anything about marriage.

 

Wouldn't you like to have legal same-sex unions in Singapore?

 

 

 

I agree with you,  except that scriptures were written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.  It is said that Jesus spoke mostly in Aramaic,  and the Gospels were written  in common Greek.  IT's INCREDIBLE that a real divinity would trust His Word to translations of translations and copies of copies of copies....  go figure out!

 

But there are and have been so many intelligent people in the Catholic Church.  Like we can understand mistranslation and out of context,  should they not have reached the same conclusions and ended this gay bashing?   One can suspect that there was not only mistake but bad will, a need for SIN like the fish needs WATER 

 

You guys can justify the homophobic nature of Christian and Catholic churches to be mis-translation or whatever till the cows come home, but at the end of the day, nothing changes. Even if the argument here wants to be diverted into that of civil union-ship instead of gay marriages, is the Singapore Catholic Churches going to supportive of it? Answer: No. Anything more to argue about? Answer: Nothing.

 

This is just another vain attempt for gays to get equal rights, and another blatant show of how disunited the false religions of Christianity and Catholicism are. If people aren't even willing to listen to their own Pope, you don't need much of a stretched imagination to know that people won't believe in their own God even if he comes down and talk to them in real.  Period. 

[Why?]

12 hours ago, Guest Try and see said:

Don't get your hopes up.

 

Catholic stance on marriage remains unchanged, says S'pore Catholic Church in response to Pope Francis' remarks

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/catholic-stance-on-marriage-remains-unchanged-says-spore-catholic-church-in-response-to

Really, who cares about what "stance" they harbour.  Marriage or no marriage is not their choice, but ours. Who the fuck these bigots think they are? The creator of mankind?

Edited October 24, 2020 by Why?

[Guest Danny]

12 hours ago, Guest Try and see said:

Don't get your hopes up.

 

Catholic stance on marriage remains unchanged, says S'pore Catholic Church in response to Pope Francis' remarks

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/catholic-stance-on-marriage-remains-unchanged-says-spore-catholic-church-in-response-to

 

That is correct. The religious marriage is very different from civil union. I really don't get it why most people don't understand that?

[jlone]

2 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

If people aren't even willing to listen to their own Pope, you don't need much of a stretched imagination to know that people won't believe in their own God even if he comes down and talk to them in real.  Period. 

The so called religious are appealing the pope to repent n save his own soul for what he said on the video !

[wilfgene]

1 hour ago, jlone said:

The so called religious are appealing the pope to repent n save his own soul for what he said on the video !

In case you have forgotten, the 'religious(?)' reveled in another pope's apology for 'misconducts' by the Church and challenged the Baptist to do the same for slave-trading.  And then, it turned out the so-called apology was to god, not the victims.

It's a mighty big bold step of him.  Nonetheless, there are jargons and protocols within such a big establishment that lots of lay Catholics probably are unaware of.

Have you heard on BBC the African branches splitting from Canterbury over stance on homosexuality?

Or the Russian one not recognising Constantinople over Ukraine?  The establishment of the Church of Ethiopia?  Even more jargons and politics.

[Guest Papal dun bitch]

The religious conservatives are always so riled up and restless whenever the world is waking up, opening up to more romantic and familiar choices and self determinism.

[Dart]

13 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

Don't get your hopes down.  All this commotion is about same-sex UNIONS,  not marriages.   Pope didn't say anything about marriage.

 

Wouldn't you like to have legal same-sex unions in Singapore?

 

 

 

I agree with you,  except that scriptures were written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.  It is said that Jesus spoke mostly in Aramaic,  and the Gospels were written  in common Greek.  IT's INCREDIBLE that a real divinity would trust His Word to translations of translations and copies of copies of copies....  go figure out!

 

But there are and have been so many intelligent people in the Catholic Church.  Like we can understand mistranslation and out of context,  should they not have reached the same conclusions and ended this gay bashing?   One can suspect that there was not only mistake but bad will, a need for SIN like the fish needs WATER 

 

The Bible were translated into Latin before it could be translated into English. Latin was the lingua franca in the Western Roman Empire, English wasn't used then. Aramaic was a spoken language during Jesus' time, that's why none of the New Testament epistles were written in Aramaic. Thanks for the background lesson. My point of concern is the process of translation into English and other common languages used today.

 

It doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to figure out the first account witnesses would write in the languages used there and then. As the command to pass on the good word to the rest of the world so the scriptures were translated into the respective languages.

 

[InBangkok]

10 minutes ago, Dart said:

It doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to figure out the first account witnesses would write in the languages used there and then. As the command to pass on the good word to the rest of the world so the scriptures were translated into the respective languages.

In the Christian, Jewish and Islamic religions, the first account witnesses did not write. What they told was passed down verbally through many generations until they could were finally put in writing. As with all stories, there can be no doubt that the narrative that was eventually written down varied considerably from that first spoken. So how are any of us to know what is the absolute truth of the earliest days of those religions and what details were added over the centuries?

[Dart]

12 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

 

 

You guys can justify the homophobic nature of Christian and Catholic churches to be mis-translation or whatever till the cows come home, but at the end of the day, nothing changes. Even if the argument here wants to be diverted into that of civil union-ship instead of gay marriages, is the Singapore Catholic Churches going to supportive of it? Answer: No. Anything more to argue about? Answer: Nothing.

 

This is just another vain attempt for gays to get equal rights, and another blatant show of how disunited the false religions of Christianity and Catholicism are. If people aren't even willing to listen to their own Pope, you don't need much of a stretched imagination to know that people won't believe in their own God even if he comes down and talk to them in real.  Period. 

 

I do not and will never justify homophobia under any circumstances. Just sharing the translation flaws and the contexts within the Bible which those hateful "Christians" use to bash us gays.

 

And what makes you so sure that Christanity is a false religion. Is this an assumption? What if it turns out otherwise?

[Dart]

3 hours ago, InBangkok said:

In the Christian, Jewish and Islamic religions, the first account witnesses did not write. What they told was passed down verbally through many generations until they could were finally put in writing. As with all stories, there can be no doubt that the narrative that was eventually written down varied considerably from that first spoken. So how are any of us to know what is the absolute truth of the earliest days of those religions and what details were added over the centuries?

 

In a matter of fact, the apostles Matthew, Mark, Luke and John who walked with Jesus during his ministry. They were the first account witnesses who wrote the gosple within their lifespan.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Dart

[Steve5380]

2 hours ago, Nightingale said:

Never mind about the original or true versions.  Never mind how the Bible or the Koran were modified.  What matters is how the present generation of believers interpret them.  They believe their holy books are the truth, and the ONLY truth.  And if sufficient number of leaders / "experts" / "authorities" (majority) cast homosexuality in negative light, the sheep will follow what their shepherds preach.  To them, it's safer to cling to 377A "tradition" & conservatism to "please God & fellow worshippers" so as to feel religiously secure.  For non-religious homophobes, they will continue to feel morally superior.

 

The responsibility to convey the truth rests on the religious ORGANIZATIONS.  Thy educate (brain-wash) their followers.  And they claim that their doctrines extracted from their holy books are the ONLY truth. This by itself is the inescapable deception of the religious organizations,  to present as a real truth what can be a belief at best. 

 

Biblical literalism is an extreme, and it is amazing how extremisms attract so many people. Here is an article that discusses this literalism,  I like their comment that we homosexuals should all be put to death if the Bible should be taken literally:

 

https://bible.org/article/taking-bible-literally

 

Today we are fortunate to live in an era where science has prevailed over intellectualism.  We can discuss until the end of times what is the correct interpretation of the holy books.  But the pragmatic, scientific mind goes out to the world and OBSERVES the world.  This scientific approach is so simple!  We go to the gay scene and mingle with homosexuals and observe their nature, their traits, their actions.  And it takes no time to discover that gays are not the monsters apostle Paul described in his letter to the Romans!  Paul wrote about this "monsters" that they are "disobedient to their parents"...   My late bf was the only one among many straight siblings who respected and supported his old father and  the sister who cared for him,  and after his death his bf, another gay (me) keeps supporting them.  It takes no time to discover that gays in general are kinder and more compassionate than their straight counterparts.  Why these scientific experiments that can be verified by anyone anytime don't become the true evidence of what homosexuals are,  and all the holy books are returned to the bookshelves under "fiction"? 

 

Religious organizations are not after the truth but after the perpetuation of their organizations.  This is why it feels like a breath of fresh air when the head of the biggest such organization has the guts to proclaim the truth,  that homosexuals are children of God and deserve to have their same-sex unions legalized. 

[Dart]

8 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

 

The responsibility to convey the truth rests on the religious ORGANIZATIONS.  Thy educate (brain-wash) their followers.  And they claim that their doctrines extracted from their holy books are the ONLY truth. This by itself is the inescapable deception of the religious organizations,  to present as a real truth what can be a belief at best. 

 

Biblical literalism is an extreme, and it is amazing how extremisms attract so many people. Here is an article that discusses this literalism,  I like their comment that we homosexuals should all be put to death if the Bible should be taken literally:

 

https://bible.org/article/taking-bible-literally

 

Today we are fortunate to live in an era where science has prevailed over intellectualism.  We can discuss until the end of times what is the correct interpretation of the holy books.  But the pragmatic, scientific mind goes out to the world and OBSERVES the world.  This scientific approach is so simple!  We go to the gay scene and mingle with homosexuals and observe their nature, their traits, their actions.  And it takes no time to discover that gays are not the monsters apostle Paul described in his letter to the Romans!  Paul wrote about this "monsters" that they are "disobedient to their parents"...   My late bf was the only one among many straight siblings who respected and supported his old father and  the sister who cared for him,  and after his death his bf, another gay (me) keeps supporting them.  It takes no time to discover that gays in general are kinder and more compassionate than their straight counterparts.  Why these scientific experiments that can be verified by anyone anytime don't become the true evidence of what homosexuals are,  and all the holy books are returned to the bookshelves under "fiction"? 

 

Religious organizations are not after the truth but after the perpetuation of their organizations.  This is why it feels like a breath of fresh air when the head of the biggest such organization has the guts to proclaim the truth,  that homosexuals are children of God and deserve to have their same-sex unions legalized. 

 

O dear me. Steve, with due respect, don't mind sharing with me and the viewers the verses that call for our execution and also the apostle Paul who branded us as monster.

 

Did you find them from a third party or you found the verses yourself from the Bible?

[Steve5380]

16 minutes ago, Dart said:

 

O dear me. Steve, with due respect, don't mind sharing with me and the viewers the verses that call for our execution and also the apostle Paul who branded us as monster.

 

Did you find them from a third party or you found the verses yourself from the Bible?

 

Leviticus 20:13:   If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

 

Romans 1: 18-32:  But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness.... Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved. Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. They know God's justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too