What is the difference between Automatic and Kinetic watch?

[heman]

Not all watch company are using silicon technology. That is why i am now focusing on these independent watch makers. They still use metals that are rust proof. I love my Kari Voutillinen watch together with my Gruebel Forsey. They are world apart from the norm.

I think IWC too is not into silicon , they still use metals components and they developed special alloys to counteract rusts and magnetism. Rolex too shy away from silicon as far as i know. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by heman

[Guest dumbdumb]

14 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

This is a good question to ask Guest tomato.    But if you get confused over so little, ...  you have a problem!

you started the tomato analogy and dare to push this to an anonymous poster, grow a pair and take responsibility for your words la.... oh i forgot he tend to weasel out of arguments.

[Steve5380]

3 minutes ago, heman said:

Not all watch company are using silicon technology. That is why i am now focusing on these independent watch makers. They still use metals that are rust proof. I love my Kari Voutillinen watch together with my Dubois Forsey. They are world apart from the norm.

I think IWC too is not into silicon , they still use metals components and they developed special alloys to counteract rusts and magnetism. Rolex too shy away from silicon. 

 

It makes sense.  Ask a geologist, and he will tell that silicon is a very abundant element and quartz is a very abundant mineral on the planet.  So its wise to stay away from these ordinary things. (when will I be serious ??)

[heman]

28 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

isn't it a fantastic attention seeker?

 

There's nothing wrong to be an attention seeker otherwise high horology will become stale and stagnant. In my post on classical music, i am not only into the Baroque and the Classical-Romantic music but also venture into serialism or twelve tone music. Perhaps am  i an attention seeker because few are into atonal music ????

Edited May 8, 2021 by heman

[Steve5380]

1 minute ago, heman said:

There's nothing wrong to be an attention seeker otherwise high horology will become stale and stagnant. In my post on classical music, i am not only into the Baroque and the Classical-Romantic music but also venture into serialism or twelve tone music. 

 

I know, I know.  You are nicely avant-garde, and horology is a smart way to be so.  

But while the view of a spectacular watch is limited to the eye focusing on it,  the hearing of some avant-garde music is inescapable unless one wears sound suppressing headphones.  Ears trained with Mozart become somewhat delicate. 

 

13 minutes ago, Guest dumbdumb said:

you started the tomato analogy and dare to push this to an anonymous poster, grow a pair and take responsibility for your words la.... oh i forgot he tend to weasel out of arguments.

 

Who need to take responsibility are those who post as 'tomato', 'confused', 'dumbdumb'.  Isn't this demeaning?

To weasel out of attacks with perfectly civil arguments can be a harmless humorous sport. 

[Steve5380]

14 hours ago, durianking said:

so sorry if my post become a heated argument here. But I am grateful to see some of you who really passionate about watch and willingness to share a bit of what you know esp @Steve5380 and @heman and some other BWs also ....

 

 

Please don't feel sorry!   Your thread opened up an opportunity for a very rich discussion about wristwatches,  in which I learned very much about new mechanical watches.  And heated arguments are nothing negative when we can take them with civility and humor.  After all, the heat which causes molecular movements is indispensable for life. 

 

Good luck with your nice new watch.  And... stay punctual, a very good personal quality.    

[Steve5380]

I would have never dreamed that a mechanical watch based on a celebrated mechanism like the Valjoux 7750 chronograph could RUST the way it is shown in this video.  And I find it fascinating to see the work of restoring it.  No wonder it can cost thousands of dollars!

 

 

 

Did the owner kept the watch in a constant refreshing and cleaning bath of water,  or did the manufacturer provide 'ventilation' for its inside?   Wouldn't this make me nervous wearing it daily, maybe exposed to high humidity or even rain?  I am confident that my inexpensive Timex quartz if it would get rusted like that, it would keep ticking... ha ha.  And one does not need to lubricate the thousands of transistors inside.

 

On the other hand, it must be fun to do a repairing work like this (especially if one is nearsighted). It looks like an excellent exercise in developing a steady pulse.  No smoking, no drugs, no hiccups.  Maybe comparable in complexity to restoring an automatic transmission of a car, but minus all that oil.   

.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Steve5380

[heman]

3 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

Valjoux 7750 chronograph could RUS

The above movement is one of the very good calibre used in 1970 or 80s if i recalled for chronograph movements. It was used by few other companies like IWC mainly , Breitlings and even Omega if i am not wrong. It is very robust and accurate. Being a chronograph , it is very prone to water seepage as well as to dust.

The above chronograph from what i observed was made in the mid 1970s. I have four pocket stopwatches and three are having the Valjoux and one from inhouse calibre. Oh yes the degree of mechanical oxidation is alarming probably it was not serviced at all. 

Now you can see how much effort to dismantle, cleansed, reassembly and then fine tune the parts. 

Edited May 18, 2021 by heman

[Steve5380]

On 5/17/2021 at 10:13 PM, heman said:

 

Now you can see how much effort to dismantle, cleansed, reassembly and then fine tune the parts. 

 

 

Yes, it is impressive.  If I ever own a watch like the one in the following video and it need service,  I would not see it as a "do it yourself" job:

 

 

[heman]

38 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

"do it yourself" jo

Vacheron Constantin if i vividly recalled produced the most complicated wrist watch somewhere in 2015 . It has more than 55 complications and almost 3000 parts ! That watch was produced to mark its 260 yrs of estabishment. Oh yes VC is the oldest watch company which produces watches continously till this very day. It is one of the so called Holy Trinity in Haute Horology. The others being AP and PP.

[durianking]

but now I feel the automatic watch is abit troublesome ya....

when I didnt wear it (less than 24 hours), the watch will stop. then I have to start adjusting the time and the most iritating .... The date and day. 🤦🏻‍♂️😂

is there any ways to solve this? thanks

 

[heman]

1 hour ago, durianking said:

automatic watch is abit troublesome

Most automatic watches have a power reserve of about 40 hours on the average though some are from five to ten days. What i suggest is to wind it up about fifty to sixty times each morning if you are not wearing it. it takes less than 30 secs in most cases. You need to wear it for at least 7 to 8 hours daily to have the power reserve wind up automatically. Your 5-Sport Seiko is based on the old 4R series which has a power reserve of 40 hrs. The latest calibre from that brand has about 70 hrs but it costs much more.

Never regret about that automatic watch you bought. In the long term it will give you joy.

I take about 40 minutes each day to wind up all my watches except for four of them which has a power reserve of more than five days to ten days. I enjoy giving them "heart beats" everyday !

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by heman

[heman]

I dont think you need to buy a watch winder unless you have a few watches especially those with complications. I dislike them for certain specific reasons. Furthermore they are costly and can be noisy.

[durianking]

5 hours ago, heman said:

Most automatic watches have a power reserve of about 40 hours on the average though some are from five to ten days. What i suggest is to wind it up about fifty to sixty times each morning if you are not wearing it. it takes less than 30 secs in most cases. You need to wear it for at least 7 to 8 hours daily to have the power reserve wind up automatically. Your 5-Sport Seiko is based on the old 4R series which has a power reserve of 40 hrs. The latest calibre from that brand has about 70 hrs but it costs much more.

Never regret about that automatic watch you bought. In the long term it will give you joy.

I take about 40 minutes each day to wind up all my watches except for four of them which has a power reserve of more than five days to ten days. I enjoy giving them "heart beats" everyday !

 

thanks for the advice. now I know where the mistake is ....

I only wind it about 15 rounds as the shop advise me. Dont over wind and it will break. so makes me cautious about it. 

But u advise to round 50-60x ... wow. 

will there any indication that the winding is enough? I mean u can feel it more tight when you wind it? I just worried it will break hahaha

[durianking]

5 hours ago, heman said:

I dont think you need to buy a watch winder unless you have a few watches especially those with complications. I dislike them for certain specific reasons. Furthermore they are costly and can be noisy.

yeah I dont need to buy a winder. actually quite enjoy when i m not busy

[Steve5380]

10 hours ago, durianking said:

thanks for the advice. now I know where the mistake is ....

I only wind it about 15 rounds as the shop advise me. Dont over wind and it will break. so makes me cautious about it. 

But u advise to round 50-60x ... wow. 

will there any indication that the winding is enough? I mean u can feel it more tight when you wind it? I just worried it will break hahaha

 

You will never overwind a mechanical watch if you keep aware of the force it takes to wind it up.  This force may increase somewhat as the winding proceeds but when the spring is fully coiled on the inner drum it cannot go beyond,  and then the force goes up immediately and one stops the wind up.  Maybe winding up a little too much, while not breaking anything,  may wear out the crown and inner gears faster?  But this may not happen, or 'faster' may mean in 30 years instead of 100 years?  Also, it may be advisable to never wind up a watch while it is on the arm, because of the odd position of the fingers putting more force on the crown.

.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Steve5380

[heman]

12 hours ago, durianking said:

advise to round 50-60x ... wow

Not  to worry of over winding for automatic watches has a safety release mechanism that prevents over winding. However for non automatic watches you need to be careful. Once there is resistance , you should go slow and stop otherwise the spring will break.

You only wind it 20 times if you are wearing the watch immediately , otherwise 50 to 60 times. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by heman

[heman]

12 hours ago, durianking said:

indication that the winding is enough?

You might hear a series of clicking sounds when the watch is overwind for automatic watches but not non automatic mechanical calibres.

[durianking]

thanks for the expert advise here .... i will try it

[heman]

It is a real pity that past two years the world haute horology exhibitions annually held in Switzerland had to put on shelf. Hopefully 2022 will be year for it to be continued again. I heard the production of these fine watches have slowed down and of course will drive prices up. Basel world has lost its momentum when top brands like Grand Seiko, Rolex and Patek have left the scene (if i am not wrong ) and now putting their places in Watch and Wonders instead. 

[Steve5380]

On 11/21/2021 at 8:05 AM, heman said:

It is a real pity that past two years the world haute horology exhibitions annually held in Switzerland had to put on shelf. Hopefully 2022 will be year for it to be continued again. I heard the production of these fine watches have slowed down and of course will drive prices up. Basel world has lost its momentum when top brands like Grand Seiko, Rolex and Patek have left the scene (if i am not wrong ) and now putting their places in Watch and Wonders instead. 

 

This can be expected,  given that the intensifying of climate change and the spreading of Covid-19 have put the vaccine and availability of sufficient food and shelter in priorities ahead of the enjoyment of haute horology. 

 

But it will come back, if and when the economy recovers and the virus subsides.  Today the covid infections have resurged, and it is amazing that in this country with an alleged high level of education, only 67% of the population is vaccinated.  And street protests are happening in Bern against the introduction of "covid certificates".  So... better to stay away from there.

[heman]

At last Watch And Wonders is being held in Geneva replacing Basel and  SIHH. This year reveals unusual collections especially the very remarkable Grand Seiko Tourbillion and my favorite Ulysee Nardin S Freak. Those interested in high horology should view them in various Youtubes. 

[Steve5380]

On 4/3/2022 at 9:03 AM, heman said:

At last Watch And Wonders is being held in Geneva replacing Basel and  SIHH. This year reveals unusual collections especially the very remarkable Grand Seiko Tourbillion and my favorite Ulysee Nardin S Freak. Those interested in high horology should view them in various Youtubes. 

 

I saw these two watches in Youtube videos, and I am highly impressed by their sophistication. 

 

My idea of "high horology" are the experiments with atomic clocks and applications of the law of relativity.  I see tourbillions as jewelry more than technology,  since there is no new technology in these watches except the refinement in materials.  I think that High Horology appeared in wristwatches with the introduction of quartz crystal oscillators. 

 

I am so happy with my $50 Timex watch.  I bought it about 5 years ago, and during this time it has been highly precise, it never stopped and is still running on the original battery.  A technological wonder!  And it is very elegant.

[Steve5380]

A few weeks ago I had the battery of my TIMEX watch replaced for the first time in many years.  This watch, for which I paid about $50 if I remember correctly,  is precise like a chronometer, elegant, beautiful,  simple.  It's high precision comes from a technological reality:  a quartz oscillator movement.  No winding, no moving,  just running tireless by itself for many years!

 

Today I read about another watch,  the "Code 11.59 by Audemars Piguet Ultra-Complication Universelle" watch, a wonder of miniature mechanical technology.  

 

 

I think, but I'm not sure,  that this watch is as precise as my TIMEX or close to it.   And it's price is about US$ 1,800,000  compared to my US$ 50  TIMEX.

 

I should be devastated,  humiliated, miserable thinking that I would never pay 1.8 million dollars for an object that does the same as my 50 dollars watch.  But I am none of that!   I feel PROUD that I have no desire to own the Piguet watch

 

However, I feel admiration for the craftmanship that goes into this extreme mechanical toy.  I also feel admiration for the advanced technology that went into the James Webb space telescope that is changing the science of astronomy as we know it.    I won't say that one endeavor is more useful than the other,  just that I feel satisfaction in the way we humans strive for perfection.  

 

[durianking]

Last time I started this thread  And thanks to Steve who help a lot. 

After sometimes I feel that my manual watch is not so accurate. is this usual?

[Steve5380]

6 minutes ago, durianking said:

Last time I started this thread  And thanks to Steve who help a lot. 

After sometimes I feel that my manual watch is not so accurate. is this usual?

 

Unless they are highly sophisticated and expensive,  manual watches are not supposed to be so accurate.  Before the existence of quartz watches it was the norm to reset it every so often, like once a week, if one had the need for time accuracy.   And in normal, active life there is no need for accuracies to the minute or so.  

 

Today, mechanical watches are the choice if one wants something more "special" than a cheap quartz watch.  And the mechanical watch you chose,  the SEIKO Automatic with phosphorescent hands and calendar is elegant and looks special, functional, like the Tag & Heuer that I have.

[NE-STR]

On 4/12/2023 at 11:05 AM, Steve5380 said:

A few weeks ago I had the battery of my TIMEX watch replaced for the first time in many years.  This watch, for which I paid about $50 if I remember correctly,  is precise like a chronometer, elegant, beautiful,  simple.  It's high precision comes from a technological reality:  a quartz oscillator movement.  No winding, no moving,  just running tireless by itself for many years!

 

Today I read about another watch,  the "Code 11.59 by Audemars Piguet Ultra-Complication Universelle" watch, a wonder of miniature mechanical technology.  

 

 

I think, but I'm not sure,  that this watch is as precise as my TIMEX or close to it.   And it's price is about US$ 1,800,000  compared to my US$ 50  TIMEX.

 

I should be devastated,  humiliated, miserable thinking that I would never pay 1.8 million dollars for an object that does the same as my 50 dollars watch.  But I am none of that!   I feel PROUD that I have no desire to own the Piguet watch

 

However, I feel admiration for the craftmanship that goes into this extreme mechanical toy.  I also feel admiration for the advanced technology that went into the James Webb space telescope that is changing the science of astronomy as we know it.    I won't say that one endeavor is more useful than the other,  just that I feel satisfaction in the way we humans strive for perfection.  

 

Omg thanks for sharing, I got all excited just by seeing the thumbnail picture.

 

Am sure this watch will be at least $100k SGD.

[NE-STR]

14 hours ago, durianking said:

Last time I started this thread  And thanks to Steve who help a lot. 

After sometimes I feel that my manual watch is not so accurate. is this usual?

Its normal for manual watches to be not so accurate over the years of used. parts wear and tear are the main factors.

 

But its just the Joy having having something mechanical on your wrist and mainly is to build memories with it.

 

Always enjoy the watch in good health!

 

[Steve5380]

 

On 4/12/2023 at 8:33 AM, durianking said:

Last time I started this thread  And thanks to Steve who help a lot. 

After sometimes I feel that my manual watch is not so accurate. is this usual?

 

The importance of watches being accurate should only be...  as they need to be.  Unless you are in a time-precise job, you should be able to afford a couple of seconds or even a minute inaccuracy a day. 

 

Your new SEIKO watch is VERY elegant.  And Seiko is a prestigious brand!   I didn't realize how prestigious it is until I saw today the following video about  "Grand Seiko".    Their technology in their new chronograph is impressive, probably second to none:

 

 

On a side note,  I am very impressed with one Seiko product:  an atomic clock with alarm,  a present from my son made 30 years ago (!!), still running like new on a little battery.  This is my time reference for the whole home. 

[radiusulnar]

i thought automatic and kinetic is the same because it is kinetic energy that powers the automatic watch.

[Steve5380]

16 hours ago, radiusulnar said:

i thought automatic and kinetic is the same because it is kinetic energy that powers the automatic watch.

 

Both automatic and kinetic watches receive their power by the shaking of the watch when it is in use on the wrist.  But the kinetic transforms this power into electricity that drives its electronic quartz timekeeping.  This timekeeping requires much, much less power than the mechanical flywheel of the automatic watches, therefore they can store energy for months. Quartz timekeeping is also much more accurate than the mechanical flywheel.

 

So the kinetic watch is simply a quartz watch where instead of a plain battery the energy comes from the mechanical weight that moves inside.  Advantage:  no need to periodically have the battery changed.  This "advantage"  is so small that it is idiotic to chose the kinetic over the plain much less expensive quartz watch.  In all my quartz watches, the battery lasts MANY YEARS before needing replacement.  Enough time to forget about them and enjoy their precise timekeeping.  

[heman]

Soon Watch and Wonders will surface again in mid April 2024. I hope this thread will be continue again. I expect much excitement then especially with JLC reverso. 

[durianking]

6 hours ago, heman said:

Soon Watch and Wonders will surface again in mid April 2024. I hope this thread will be continue again. I expect much excitement then especially with JLC reverso. 

wow this thread so long already ... resurface haha. 

Do u mean something "big" in April 2024?

 

[Steve5380]

On 4/23/2021 at 6:51 AM, heman said:

 

On 4/23/2021 at 6:51 AM, heman said:

 

Kinetic watches use hand movement to operate the battery which then run the watch. This is different from quartz watches .Grand  Seiko , which is different from Seiko , had developed a spring drive whose accuracy beats even those of Patek, Ulysee Nardin , V. Constantin, Chopard and other high end watches.

 

 

I am visiting again this thread and enjoying the discussions  (the intelligent ones, ha ha).

 

Recently I learned about the Spring Drive mechanism of the Grand Seiko, and I am impressed by its smartness.  Here is a description of it:

 

https://www.thewatchcompany.com/blog/watches-buying-guide/seiko-spring-drive-everything-you-need-to-know/

 

In a mechanical watch, the energy comes from its coiled spring, whose torque is scaled down by a train of gears until it reaches the escape wheel, with very little power.  This escape wheel is forced to turn at the time-precise rate by the oscillations of the spinning wheel, the time reference of the watch.

 

The Spring Drive is somewhat similar, its energy also comes from its coiled spring, whose torque is scaled down by gears until it reaches the last wheel.  This one becomes the rotor of an alternate-current generator which transforms the little power at this point into electricity.  A fraction of this power drives a precision quartz oscillator, the time-reference in place of the spinning wheel.  The frequency of the quartz, after scaled down, is compared with the frequency of the alternate-current, and this comparison causes an electric power to be dissipated to "brake" the rotator so that its spin creates exactly the alternate-frequency that matches the one from the quartz oscillator. 

 

The tiny electric power is much more than what the electronics needs, which is so minuscule that a normal quartz watch can run it for years on a small battery.  I SUSPECT that Seiko uses this excess power to improve the accuracy of the oscillator by heating the crystal to a temperature exceeding the temperature range of the watch, in this way keeping the crystal at a constant temperature, which is what the precision frequency generators do.  CLEVER, clever design!

 

BENEFITS:  there is no "tick-tack" and the seconds hand has a continuous movement, very appealing to the sight.  And, the watch attains an extreme stability,  with a time error within 10 seconds a year !!!

 

NEGATIVE: like an automatic, the watch has an energy reserve that lasts only for a few days.  So it must be used frequently or be wounded up.

 

I AM SOLD on HOROLOGY being a passion that pushes the start of the art.   If I would still wear a watch daily like I did while I worked,  I would not hesitate to spend 10K dollars to buy one of these Grand Seiko watches,  I saw a model that is super elegant and attractive.  However, being as frugal as I am,  I would not spend the money to have the watch in a box resting in some drawer.  This would be a waste of its impressive precision.

[heman]

Indeed Grand Seiko has developed a "hybrid mechanical-quartz" technology. It took several decades to perfect it. I have only one in my collection though i have two other Grand Seiko - the high beat Shosho automatic and the more recent Kishun which is manual winding  ( i was fortunate to meet the watch maker himself in a private function mid Oct last year). 

Perhaps Shosho has one of the best dial with the well known Zaratsho almost perfect mirror polishing.

Well i hope to land one CREDO Seiko in my colection. A very difficult piece to attain and it is at par with the finest Swiss (or even better ) watch makers.

If i recalled Seiko produces an award winning last year with its Tourbilon-Constant Force in Watch and Wonders 2023. It costs a cool $460,000 and only one came to Singapore and was immediately purchased by a collector locally.

[heman]

13 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

This would be a waste of its impressive precision.

Well you should wear your watch like an everyday attire. NEVER think of investment when purchasing one.

Currently i am into the "watch maker of watch maker" JLC . Managed to acquire three of their pieces last few months. Please do take note that JLC even supplied the movements to Patek, AP and few others high end horology.

Do need to wind your watches at least once in two weeks to prevent coagulation of the lubricant. 

 

[Steve5380]

12 hours ago, heman said:

 

Do need to wind your watches at least once in two weeks to prevent coagulation of the lubricant. 

 

 

What kind of lubricant is this that coagulates after two weeks of rest ???  Don't they use today synthetic lubricants that can be formulated to any specification?  

 

My "new" ( 15 years old ) car spends often more than two weeks sitting unused.  Never found any coagulation of its oil or other lubricants...

[heman]

13 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

What kind of lubricant is this that coagulates a

From my knowledge of watch movement lubrication ,it is the brand secret. Most high horological watches use organic oils as these are less corrosive when compared to synthetic ones. It can gel when subjected to very cold temperature and these companies advise to wind these pieces once every two to three weeks.

Two of my vintage Pateks were noted to have such problems during those 1980s and 1990s period when i send for complete servicing. This is from my personal experience  as well as advise given by t watch restorer-restorer..