Confession #2

[BlinkOnce]

"I’m married. I love my wife and kids. But there is this part of me that have sexual desires with man. I control my urges as much as possible, but I’m weak. Sometime I give in to my inner demons, I had fun.

In my defense (if it matters), I made sure it’s clean safe and non anal. That’s the bit of consolation I give to myself.

This is not right, I know. But I can’t help it. I hate myself for it. I want to be just like any other straight married man, but I know i can’t, and I plan to keep this a secret until I die.

There’s too much at stake if this secret is out. I can’t even imagine.

There’s nothing wrong being gay, but it’s wrong when you live your life under the pretense of something."

 

- I can't really offer any advice for this matter, because it seems like you are fully aware of the situation with its pros and cons yet are still stuck. I just hope writing out your struggle of keeping a secret helps alleviate it a little. Please treat your family members extra well, for you have been keeping a secret from them. Cheers.

_BlinkOnce

[Steve5380]

I lived in the situation of this man for 13 years.   In this time I only gave in to my "demons" twice.  If I could control my sexual desires as a teenager, even more so as an adult.  There is so much riding in a marriage with children that some sexual urges are far down the list. And there is always self-satisfaction.   After the marriage ended in divorce and the children left, freedom returned to join the gay scene and I could catch up with what I had eventually missed.  Today I give thanks to destiny for giving me some force of will and only moderate urges for sex.  Moderation is the key.

[InBangkok]

4 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

Today I give thanks to destiny for giving me some force of will and only moderate urges for sex.  Moderation is the key.

Thank goodness for moderation! Although sometimes waxing lyrical about it can sometimes conflict with earlier comments. This, for example written on 17 November last year -

 

"Once vaccinated against the Covid, I will rush to Singapore and take a 10 entries pass to Keybox and Hook Club.  Then I travel to KL to frequent several times Mandi Manda, Otot Otot, Kakiku,  before flying to Bangkok and making my rounds of Babylon, Chakran, Sauna Mania, Farose II, Dejavu, Male Box,  all without risk of getting infected with Covid."

 

No funny emoji, no "LOL". But no doubt a touch of humour somewhere hidden there.

[Steve5380]

On 7/15/2021 at 1:51 AM, InBangkok said:

Thank goodness for moderation! Although sometimes waxing lyrical about it can sometimes conflict with earlier comments. This, for example written on 17 November last year -

 

"Once vaccinated against the Covid, I will rush to Singapore and take a 10 entries pass to Keybox and Hook Club.  Then I travel to KL to frequent several times Mandi Manda, Otot Otot, Kakiku,  before flying to Bangkok and making my rounds of Babylon, Chakran, Sauna Mania, Farose II, Dejavu, Male Box,  all without risk of getting infected with Covid."

 

No funny emoji, no "LOL". But no doubt a touch of humour somewhere hidden there.

 

How nice for me to have a proofreader who checks everything I write for correctness.  But it would be even nicer if this proofreader has common sense,  and don't put so much malice in trying to find me at fault!  

[InBangkok]

3 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

How nice for me to have a proofreader who checks everything I write for correctness. 

The value of posts is dinished when a poster says one thing in one post and then totally contradicts himself in another. It then throws doubts of all of a poster's contributions. And by the way that is nothing to do with proof reading.

[Steve5380]

9 hours ago, InBangkok said:

The value of posts is dinished when a poster says one thing in one post and then totally contradicts himself in another. It then throws doubts of all of a poster's contributions. And by the way that is nothing to do with proof reading.

 

It is ugly when a person tries to find contradictions in a person he is after to bash.  You knew perfectly well, like those who know me, that my boasting of a sauna spree after being vaccinated was a joke.  And you confirmed your knowledge at the end:

 

On 7/15/2021 at 1:51 AM, InBangkok said:

No funny emoji, no "LOL". But no doubt a touch of humour somewhere hidden there.

 

So you need a "LOL" or some emoji to recognize a joke?  But you recognized it: "but no doubt a touch of humor".  And you could not resist to comment! 

Thank God I have more than "a touch" of humor...  and I can laugh over your comments   

[InBangkok]

18 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

It is ugly when a person tries to find contradictions in a person he is after to bash.  You knew perfectly well, like those who know me, that my boasting of a sauna spree after being vaccinated was a joke.  And you confirmed your knowledge at the end:

 

So you need a "LOL" or some emoji to recognize a joke?  But you recognized it: "but no doubt a touch of humor".  And you could not resist to comment! 

Thank God I have more than "a touch" of humor...  and I can laugh over your comments   

So you expect everyone who reads your posts to consider them jokes? Your suggestion in the Why I No Longer Want To Be Gay thread that the OP actually consider undergoing chemical castration was a joke? That was a very dangerous joke, if it was! Please don't be so silly! And give posters here more intelligence.

 

And please be accurate. I did not have the remotest idea any of your posts were supposed to be humorous for many weeks of your posting until you later happened to mention it. I also don't believe it. When you are called out by other posters on what you call a "joke", you just double down on it in post after post after post. Want me to quote you? Of course not. You never want me to quote your previous posts for that only shows up your obvious contradictions.

Edited July 28, 2021 by InBangkok

[Steve5380]

7 hours ago, InBangkok said:

 

So you expect everyone who reads your posts to consider them jokes? Your suggestion in the Why I No Longer Want To Be Gay thread that the OP actually consider undergoing chemical castration was a joke? That was a very dangerous joke, if it was! Please don't be so silly! And give posters here more intelligence.

 

 

Nobody will engage in chemical castration as the result of a joke.  It takes the action of a physician to get such treatment,  and no doctor will agree to prescribe the drugs because someone fancies them. 

 

And I give posters here more intelligence than what you reveal in your lack of understanding of humor.  Are you so bitter that you lost all sense of humor?  And it does not reveal much intelligence your obsession in finding faults and contradictions in what another poster writes.  Don't you have better things to do?  At least you could have posted here something positive to the author of Confession #2.

.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Steve5380

[InBangkok]

1 hour ago, Steve5380 said:

Nobody will engage in chemical castration as the result of a joke.

So you still maintain that your reference to chemical castration was a joke? If that is the case, it is the sickest joke I have heard in years. About as sick as comparing attendance at a live opera performance to going to a sauna which, you will recall, was another of your so-called jokes in another thread.

 

Chemical castration is a perfectly awful procedure with extensive long-term medical consequences. If you were making a joke, then any reference to chemical castration should only have been mentioned preceded by "I am going to tell you a joke." Yet you gave it as advice! Shame on you! The more so when you then follow up with the statement that you "give posters more intelligence that my lack of understanding of humour." That's intelligence? Shame on you again!

[BlinkOnce]

@InBangkok guniang please kindly F off from my wholesome post. If you have no advice to offer to the confessant, you can remain silent. You can pick a fight with Steve elsewhere.

[doncoin]

One thing I have posted recently is this. Being in the closet is like being in a coffin. A typical closet is made of wood on 4 sides, very much like a coffin. So being in the closet is like live burial I supposed. Not a way to live. 

 

One of the things I am very glad I did was coming out in my early 20s. It allowed me to control the narrative of my life, and be who I am. I admit I am privileged and thankfully my family and friends accepted me for who I am. There was never the pressure for me to conform to the social norm of settling down, get married, and have children, even as the only son. I supposed in a way, my family saw that there is not going to be a possibility when I came out, and hence end of discussion.  

 

At some point, it is a decision one has to make in coming out. I have met enough men who struggled in their younger days due to religious beliefs, societal pressure, family expectations, or any of the combinations. Once you are out, you control the narrative of your life. Not them. However, do so only when you ready to face the challenges ahead, and have a support system that you know will hold you up. Living a closeted life will only be a cycle of guilt and shame, and those emotions can manifest itself in ways that you don't even realised are impacting other areas of your life. I.e. being depressed, snapping at your wife/kids, drinking/smoking or some other addictive behavior, etc. 

 

Children are pretty resilient, and there are many children who grew up pretty ok with one parent being gay. It is not unusual. Children won't think of you less as a parent based on your sexuality. They think of you based on your ability to make them feel safe and loved. For kids who are old enough to understand, they will know that it is more important to have both parents happy, and living separately lives, than being together in misery, because it impacts them directly. 

 

 

[Steve5380]

6 hours ago, doncoin said:

 

One thing I have posted recently is this. Being in the closet is like being in a coffin. A typical closet is made of wood on 4 sides, very much like a coffin. So being in the closet is like live burial I supposed. Not a way to live. 

 

One of the things I am very glad I did was coming out in my early 20s. It allowed me to control the narrative of my life, and be who I am. end of discussion.  

 

Living a closeted life will only be a cycle of guilt and shame, and those emotions can manifest itself in ways that you don't even realised are impacting other areas of your life. I.e. being depressed, snapping at your wife/kids, drinking/smoking or some other addictive behavior, etc. 

 

 

Good for you to come out early in life.  We are all different, and some of us have placed other priorities over satisfying our sexual desires. 

 

I lived "in the closet" most of my life, practically until I divorced my wife at 49 y.o.  And even then I didn't  "came out" but simply joined the gay scene. No public declarations, not even till today.  And my "closet" was never a coffin.  I enjoyed much freedom doing what I considered important: my studies, my career, my music vocation.  Later it was my marriage, my children, my position of head of household. I simply kept my orientation, once I was certain of it,  to myself.  No cycles of guilt and shame, no snapping at wife/kids, drinking/smoking. or some other addictive behavior.

.

 

 

Edited July 29, 2021 by Steve5380

[BlinkOnce]

3 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

Perhaps the trauma of "closeted" is more exacerbated today as homosexual life is more tolerated and even celebrated. Then, to not being able to participate can cause much unhappiness.  In my earlier days I didn't hear of gay scenes, gay saunas, gay partnerships, gay marriages.   So the lack of all this didn't make me unhappy.

I would like to request you to take this comment off. It is in many ways problematic. People handle being in the closet differently. You should have stopped at saying that personally you didn't find being in a closet much of a burden due to different priorities in life.

 

Also, saying all depression and unhappiness are all in our head is also wrong in many ways. Having good mental health does not give you the rights to make such statement to those who are suffering. It's 2021, educate yourself on the topics of mental health. You might think you don't need it, but your family might need the support of informed close ones without you knowing.

[Steve5380]

47 minutes ago, BlinkOnce said:

I would like to request you to take this comment off. It is in many ways problematic. People handle being in the closet differently. You should have stopped at saying that personally you didn't find being in a closet much of a burden due to different priorities in life.

 

Also, saying all depression and unhappiness are all in our head is also wrong in many ways. Having good mental health does not give you the rights to make such statement to those who are suffering. It's 2021, educate yourself on the topics of mental health. You might think you don't need it, but your family might need the support of informed close ones without you knowing.

 

I have removed my problematic statements.

 

In this case, I failed to take into account the cases where mental illness is not purely spiritual but involves the biochemistry of the brain, a very physical issue that is beyond the reach of rational thought. 

[InBangkok]

9 hours ago, BlinkOnce said:

If you have no advice to offer to the confessant, you can remain silent. 

With respect, I did offer the advice that chemical castration can be very dangerous and should not be considered due to its extensive side and longer lasting effects.  I stand by that and it is my last comment on this issue.

[BlinkOnce]

6 minutes ago, InBangkok said:

With respect, I did offer the advice that chemical castration can be very dangerous and should not be considered due to its extensive side and longer lasting effects.  I stand by that and it is my last comment on this issue.

I saw that you made your case in that relevant topic. I have no issues with that. Just don't anyhow bicker off-topic on my post.

[doncoin]

14 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

Good for you to come out early in life.  We are all different, and some of us have placed other priorities over satisfying our sexual desires. 

 

I lived "in the closet" most of my life, practically until I divorced my wife at 49 y.o.  And even then I didn't  "came out" but simply joined the gay scene. No public declarations, not even till today.  And my "closet" was never a coffin.  I enjoyed much freedom doing what I considered important: my studies, my career, my music vocation.  Later it was my marriage, my children, my position of head of household. I simply kept my orientation, once I was certain of it,  to myself.  No cycles of guilt and shame, no snapping at wife/kids, drinking/smoking. or some other addictive behavior.

 

 

I admit that the dynamics of a marriage will vary from couple to couple. For you,  I assume you were faithful to your wife and never had the sexual affairs with men during your marriage, nor did you have to struggle much with your sexuality, or if you did, you handled it well and maintained the marriage till the divorce.

 

The difference is the guy is not. As confessed, he did had sexual encounters with other men during the course of his marriage and it was a struggle for him. I'm not saying that he needs to throw a come out in a big way with glitter and pompoms. Coming out as a way of being honest with himself, embracing who he is, and put an end to this cycle of shame and guilt. Think about it, if he is openly gay, or at least being honest about it, him engaging in sex with another man would just be that. It is expected and fits into the definition of being a homosexual. There is no secret about it. He is what we all think a gay man is: A man who has sex with another man. 

 

[lightsmith32]

17 hours ago, doncoin said:

One thing I have posted recently is this. Being in the closet is like being in a coffin. A typical closet is made of wood on 4 sides, very much like a coffin. So being in the closet is like live burial I supposed. Not a way to live. 

 

One of the things I am very glad I did was coming out in my early 20s. It allowed me to control the narrative of my life, and be who I am. I admit I am privileged and thankfully my family and friends accepted me for who I am. There was never the pressure for me to conform to the social norm of settling down, get married, and have children, even as the only son. I supposed in a way, my family saw that there is not going to be a possibility when I came out, and hence end of discussion.  

 

At some point, it is a decision one has to make in coming out. I have met enough men who struggled in their younger days due to religious beliefs, societal pressure, family expectations, or any of the combinations. Once you are out, you control the narrative of your life. Not them. However, do so only when you ready to face the challenges ahead, and have a support system that you know will hold you up. Living a closeted life will only be a cycle of guilt and shame, and those emotions can manifest itself in ways that you don't even realised are impacting other areas of your life. I.e. being depressed, snapping at your wife/kids, drinking/smoking or some other addictive behavior, etc. 

 

Children are pretty resilient, and there are many children who grew up pretty ok with one parent being gay. It is not unusual. Children won't think of you less as a parent based on your sexuality. They think of you based on your ability to make them feel safe and loved. For kids who are old enough to understand, they will know that it is more important to have both parents happy, and living separately lives, than being together in misery, because it impacts them directly. 

 

 

As always this man nails it .. even a coffin is not enuff to confine his spirit me thinks ..

[Steve5380]

1 hour ago, lightsmith32 said:

As always this man nails it .. even a coffin is not enuff to confine his spirit me thinks ..

 

Well... gangsters use confinement in the cement of some pillars of high-rises.  This can work for very long time, unless the pillar fails and the building collapses.

 

 

2 hours ago, doncoin said:

 

I admit that the dynamics of a marriage will vary from couple to couple. For you,  I assume you were faithful to your wife and never had the sexual affairs with men during your marriage, nor did you have to struggle much with your sexuality, or if you did, you handled it well and maintained the marriage till the divorce.

 

The difference is the guy is not. As confessed, he did had sexual encounters with other men during the course of his marriage and it was a struggle for him. I'm not saying that he needs to throw a come out in a big way with glitter and pompoms. Coming out as a way of being honest with himself, embracing who he is, and put an end to this cycle of shame and guilt. Think about it, if he is openly gay, or at least being honest about it, him engaging in sex with another man would just be that. It is expected and fits into the definition of being a homosexual. There is no secret about it. He is what we all think a gay man is: A man who has sex with another man. 

 

 

I agree much more with this your second post.  Although I was not a saint, and I had affair with a man twice during business trips.  My point has been for married gays to avoid a coming out unless it is necessary.  This is to protect the family members we love.  Such coming out often leads to the destruction of a marriage. 

 

We all have confidential information that we want to protect, and which we should seriously consider the pros and cons of revealing.  My wife never asked me if I am gay, and I never lied to her.  To people who find that I still have so much hair I won't reveal that I had hair transplants.  As a child I never told my sister that she was fat and ugly (she was), and she recovered from it all by herself and today she is a good looking senior.  We should not feel bad having sex with another man, unless this hurts someone we love.

[doncoin]

1 hour ago, Steve5380 said:

We should not feel bad having sex with another man, unless this hurts someone we love.

 

You are right. In the context of being single/unmarried, there is absolutely nothing wrong having sex with another man. I supposed that is the justification we need to tell ourselves when having an affair. I understand the whole what they don't know doesn't hurt them . 

[InBangkok]

12 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

My point has been for married gays to avoid a coming out unless it is necessary.  This is to protect the family members we love.  Such coming out often leads to the destruction of a marriage. 

As the OP points out there are surely pros and cons, although mostly cons.

 

I once had a boss who was married with 4 children. I know he loved his family and was devoted to them. I only discovered much later after he had died quite early from cancer that he knew he was gay or possibly bisexual before he married. His widow told me this. So she knew. They had discussed it before they married and decided they still wished to be married. Once a week he would visit a gay friend for sex. She was a strong-willed lady and never once asked him to stop.

 

Then there was a friend I knew some years ago. He had a very fulfilling career and was married with two young daughters. When they married he knew he had had feelings for other men but never had any idea of sex with a man. After moving from Europe to New York for a new, exciting job, he came into contact with more men who were gay. That side of him gradually came to the fore. He did start to have occasional sex which he enjoyed but which made him feel extremely guilty when he returned home. Over a year or two the conflicting feelings in his mind made him increasingly depressed. He saw no way out. One evening he drank a little too much. He sat by the window of their flat thinking how easy it would be to end everything. He fell asleep. The next morning he decided he had no choice. He had to tell his wife. 

 

When she had sympathetically heard his story. she surprised him by saying she knew. There was no anger, no sense that he had betrayed her or let the family down. Merely an understanding of the mental torment he had been going through. Eventually they had an amicable divorce and he moved to Thailand. It was here that I met him. One evening he invited me to dinner to meet his then grown up daughters. He, his boyfriend and the daughters interacted so naturally. It was a lovely evening.

 

In both those cases, the man chose to reveal the truth. They elected not to live with a lie. I suspect it must be one of the most difficult choices any basically gay or bisexual man must make when a wife and kids are involved.

[BlinkOnce]

2 hours ago, InBangkok said:

As the OP points out there are surely pros and cons, although mostly cons.

 

I once had a boss who was married with 4 children. I know he loved his family and was devoted to them. I only discovered much later after he had died quite early from cancer that he knew he was gay or possibly bisexual before he married. His widow told me this. So she knew. They had discussed it before they married and decided they still wished to be married. Once a week he would visit a gay friend for sex. She was a strong-willed lady and never once asked him to stop.

 

Then there was a friend I knew some years ago. He had a very fulfilling career and was married with two young daughters. When they married he knew he had had feelings for other men but never had any idea of sex with a man. After moving from Europe to New York for a new, exciting job, he came into contact with more men who were gay. That side of him gradually came to the fore. He did start to have occasional sex which he enjoyed but which made him feel extremely guilty when he returned home. Over a year or two the conflicting feelings in his mind made him increasingly depressed. He saw no way out. One evening he drank a little too much. He sat by the window of their flat thinking how easy it would be to end everything. He fell asleep. The next morning he decided he had no choice. He had to tell his wife. 

 

When she had sympathetically heard his story. she surprised him by saying she knew. There was no anger, no sense that he had betrayed her or let the family down. Merely an understanding of the mental torment he had been going through. Eventually they had an amicable divorce and he moved to Thailand. It was here that I met him. One evening he invited me to dinner to meet his then grown up daughters. He, his boyfriend and the daughters interacted so naturally. It was a lovely evening.

 

In both those cases, the man chose to reveal the truth. They elected not to live with a lie. I suspect it must be one of the most difficult choices any basically gay or bisexual man must make when a wife and kids are involved.

Actually I can also attest to this. I know a few bi guys who have amazing gfs who encourage, or at least agree to let them explore the other side of their sexuality as a way to spice up their wilting sex life. You may never know how wild your female partner's limits could be.

 

In addition, (just my guess), if let's say a man is to tell his secret sex life to his wife, I would say the wife would react much less negatively if the third person is another man. It's like "bo bian lo, he's gay, what can I do" kind of mentality, and it might be easier to digest the fact her husband likes to have sex with man but doesn't necessarily love men. If the third person is a woman, I think she would feel betrayed, as she will compare herself to the xiaosan. 

 

But again, just a disclaimer, I'm already out and I planned to come out after college the moment I knew I was gay. I have never quite understood the fear of those closeted gays. I always believe that internal struggles will only end up ruining your relationships with everyone around you, because to sustain your "closet", lies must entail. And as a matter of facts, no matter how much hardship one might unfortunately have to endure as the result of coming out, I have never heard anyone saying that they regret it. It's like, you might struggle for awhile, but eventually life will get better - compared to those who stay in the closet with their struggles and life just never get any better, if not worse.

 

 

[Steve5380]

6 hours ago, BlinkOnce said:

Actually I can also attest to this. I know a few bi guys who have amazing gfs who encourage, or at least agree to let them explore the other side of their sexuality as a way to spice up their wilting sex life. You may never know how wild your female partner's limits could be.

 

In addition, (just my guess), if let's say a man is to tell his secret sex life to his wife, I would say the wife would react much less negatively if the third person is another man. It's like "bo bian lo, he's gay, what can I do" kind of mentality, and it might be easier to digest the fact her husband likes to have sex with man but doesn't necessarily love men. If the third person is a woman, I think she would feel betrayed, as she will compare herself to the xiaosan. 

 

I have never quite understood the fear of those closeted gays. I always believe that internal struggles will only end up ruining your relationships with everyone around you, because to sustain your "closet", lies must entail. 

 

 

The fact is that we are all different, and marriages are also different.  In families with good culture there may not be a big problem with a spouse being gay or bi.  In other cases it may be a tragedy.  A wife may not only feel betrayed, which she can forgive, but she may be full of shame to be known as the wife of a gay man.  The same can happen with the children.  If a man marries in good faith, still not sure about his sexuality but in love with the woman,  he is not deceptive.  Then, along the marriage, he may miss the opportunities to have sex with men but he may accept his situation and relish his family life.  There is no fear, there is no trauma,  there is simply some unsatisfied desire like many others one may have.  There are many cases where a person sacrifices his inclinations, his desires, his nature to some noble causes.  Like the man who always wanted to be a doctor but he had to start working as a teenager to support his parents, and later his family, and never made it further than a clerk. He can become a very happy clerk.

 

In these our more liberal times, it is common for "the closet" to be equated with a prison cell from where one looks at the world through the bars of such cell.  Or it is a traumatic constant fear of being outed, found out by the world.   I and other persons I know have never felt this way, we were not locked up, we didn't have fear of being found out, because we didn't expose our orientation with the acts that could reveal it.   I was an agnostic throughout my 9 years of Catholic school.  Yet I never let out one word that would reveal my agnosticism, instead being a compliant boy like all the others.  This didn't make me feel "guilty, fearful, deceptive",  but I simply learned to keep my mouth shut. 

 

This is the reason for my advice to the Confessant:  hang in there, you have the strength to avoid deep and unsafe gay sex, you are careful to remain anonymous, and you have been doing it well.  Maybe later circumstances may change, like your children becoming adults and leaving the house, your wife becoming more open minded or you ending single again,  and then...  then you can join the gay scene and give in to your inclinations,  without any "come out" declaration, simply being yourself.    In the meantime, work on your mind rejecting these feelings of guilt and above all, never hate yourself.  From what you "confessed",  you are an honorable man who takes care of his family first, putting aside your desires for a noble cause.  It is not much different from you urging to own an airplane and fly around,  but you save the money for the education of your kids.   
 

[BlinkOnce]

2 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

 

The fact is that we are all different, and marriages are also different.  In families with good culture there may not be a big problem with a spouse being gay or bi.  In other cases it may be a tragedy.  A wife may not only feel betrayed, which she can forgive, but she may be full of shame to be known as the wife of a gay man.  The same can happen with the children.  If a man marries in good faith, still not sure about his sexuality but in love with the woman,  he is not deceptive.  Then, along the marriage, he may miss the opportunities to have sex with men but he may accept his situation and relish his family life.  There is no fear, there is no trauma,  there is simply some unsatisfied desire like many others one may have.  There are many cases where a person sacrifices his inclinations, his desires, his nature to some noble causes.  Like the man who always wanted to be a doctor but he had to start working as a teenager to support his parents, and later his family, and never made it further than a clerk. He can become a very happy clerk.

 

In these our more liberal times, it is common for "the closet" to be equated with a prison cell from where one looks at the world through the bars of such cell.  Or it is a traumatic constant fear of being outed, found out by the world.   I and other persons I know have never felt this way, we were not locked up, we didn't have fear of being found out, because we didn't expose our orientation with the acts that could reveal it.   I was an agnostic throughout my 9 years of Catholic school.  Yet I never let out one word that would reveal my agnosticism, instead being a compliant boy like all the others.  This didn't make me feel "guilty, fearful, deceptive",  but I simply learned to keep my mouth shut. 

 

This is the reason for my advice to the Confessant:  hang in there, you have the strength to avoid deep and unsafe gay sex, you are careful to remain anonymous, and you have been doing it well.  Maybe later circumstances may change, like your children becoming adults and leaving the house, your wife becoming more open minded or you ending single again,  and then...  then you can join the gay scene and give in to your inclinations,  without any "come out" declaration, simply being yourself.    In the meantime, work on your mind rejecting these feelings of guilt and above all, never hate yourself.  From what you "confessed",  you are an honorable man who takes care of his family first, putting aside your desires for a noble cause.  It is not much different from you urging to own an airplane and fly around,  but you save the money for the education of your kids.   
 

I don't really agree with your mindset, but I think the difference in mindset lies in generation gap.

I would assume that the confessant is in his 30s and 40s, somewhere in between my generation and your generation, which "unfortunately" makes it harder for him to make a decision because the degrees of factors all lie in the middle?

[Steve5380]

2 hours ago, BlinkOnce said:

I don't really agree with your mindset, but I think the difference in mindset lies in generation gap.

I would assume that the confessant is in his 30s and 40s, somewhere in between my generation and your generation, which "unfortunately" makes it harder for him to make a decision because the degrees of factors all lie in the middle?

 

You like the idea of generation gap.  I see this more as changing fashions, since there have been hundreds of generation gaps through the years yet humanity does not seem to change much. You see it unfortunately hard for the Confessant to make a decision perhaps because he has not made the decision you favor, and instead continues to give priority to the well being of the family over his desires.  This can be a decision too, a decision to not change.

 

A  generation gap may keep you from agreeing with my mindset,  but I can agree with yours even at my 120 years of age  

[BlinkOnce]

17 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

 

You like the idea of generation gap.  I see this more as changing fashions, since there have been hundreds of generation gaps through the years yet humanity does not seem to change much. You see it unfortunately hard for the Confessant to make a decision perhaps because he has not made the decision you favor, and instead continues to give priority to the well being of the family over his desires.  This can be a decision too, a decision to not change.

 

A  generation gap may keep you from agreeing with my mindset,  but I can agree with yours even at my 120 years of age  

I don't get your point?

What do you mean by changing fashions and humanity have not changed much? If the changes to the LGBT community is not visible enough to you, eradication of slavery, shift in gender equality should very well be enough evidence to rebut your statement. Also, you not being able to see much change in the LGBT community is exactly because the changes are brought about by younger (aka MY) generations who are fighting for our rights and visibility - aka generation gap.

 

The confessant is struggling and ridden with guilt and stuff, is it not obvious enough that it is hard for him to make a decision? One does not need bias to realize that. 

 

I decided not to give my own advocacy towards coming out in my original "advice" to him because I understand that coming out is a lot of work and never an easy decision.

 

Anyway, this topic is a complex one, and I think we can all agree to disagree. Just give our perspectives and let the confessant decide for himself.

Anyway, I think 

[Steve5380]

3 hours ago, BlinkOnce said:

I don't get your point?

What do you mean by changing fashions and humanity have not changed much? If the changes to the LGBT community is not visible enough to you, eradication of slavery, shift in gender equality should very well be enough evidence to rebut your statement. Also, you not being able to see much change in the LGBT community is exactly because the changes are brought about by younger (aka MY) generations who are fighting for our rights and visibility - aka generation gap.

 

The confessant is struggling and ridden with guilt and stuff, is it not obvious enough that it is hard for him to make a decision? One does not need bias to realize that. 

 

I decided not to give my own advocacy towards coming out in my original "advice" to him because I understand that coming out is a lot of work and never an easy decision.

 

Anyway, this topic is a complex one, and I think we can all agree to disagree. Just give our perspectives and let the confessant decide for himself.

Anyway, I think 

 

I interpret this person's confession as his dissatisfaction for being so weak that he gives in to his desires for gay sex, which he think is not right and so he hates himself.  Nowhere I read about a struggle to come out.  Instead, he has stated that his plan is to keep "his secret" until he dies.   He realizes that there is too much at stake to come out.  So I responded to his particular case, which I can well understand because I was in a similar situation, by trying to reduce his dissatisfaction and the bad opinion he has of himself. I think that by protecting his marriage he is highly moral and he is not selfish by trying to find some satisfaction here and there.  He should quench any guilt and feel proud of being able to keep some of his inclinations private.  

 

Is my point old fashioned and being an older man I am unable to understand how young people like you think?  I want to dispel this by letting you see that I also think the way you do, under the right circumstances.  I am not against coming out, but this is not the same for everyone.  I have started a thread in BW about Pete Buttigieg, former mayor of South Bend and now the US minister of transportation.  Pete didn't come out until he was 33 y.o.  Until then, he stayed in the closet without suffering big guilt or trauma,  because he would pay a high price doing so.  What prompted him to come out was the realization that he could be killed in Afghanistan without having ever experienced love.  I have been always supportive of his decision to stay in the closet when it was smart to do so, and to come out when he had a big reason to do so. 

 

The confessant here finds that there is too high a price to pay with coming out.  So he should be right by not doing so, but this should not disturb him.  I advocate that we gays should never be ashamed of being gay, and should never feel guilt by keeping this confidential.  I find no dishonesty in this.  

 

We don't know the confessant personally.  Maybe your advice is the right one for him,  maybe mine is.  But let's not judge them as old fashioned or new fashioned.  Hopefully we give him something new to think about and ease his mind.

.

Edited July 31, 2021 by Steve5380

[InBangkok]

18 hours ago, BlinkOnce said:

But again, just a disclaimer, I'm already out and I planned to come out after college the moment I knew I was gay. I have never quite understood the fear of those closeted gays. I always believe that internal struggles will only end up ruining your relationships with everyone around you, because to sustain your "closet", lies must entail. And as a matter of facts, no matter how much hardship one might unfortunately have to endure as the result of coming out, I have never heard anyone saying that they regret it. It's like, you might struggle for awhile, but eventually life will get better - compared to those who stay in the closet with their struggles and life just never get any better, if not worse.

As you have suggested in another post, isn't part of the issue here one of age and change - perhaps change in how gay men are perceived by the straight world? For older men, perhaps of @Steve5380's generation and even a little earlier, at the time they became sexually active it was the norm virtually worldwide for gay men to be referred to as not normal - queers, faggots etc. In the USA President Eisenhower's Executive Order #10450 enacted around 1953 banned gay men and women from working for the Federal government. The irony here is that the former army general Eisenhower brough in to oversee implementation of that Order was himself a closet gay! It took many years before many states had repealed anti-gay lows. In Texas and 13 other states this did not happen until as late as 2003.

 

In the UK, in the 1950s and most of the 1960s the 1880s Offences Against The Person Act made homosexuality illegal. Many people, famous and just ordinary guys, were caught and convicted. One was one of the UK's most famous actors of the day, Sir John Gielgud. Another was Alan Turing whose breaking of the Nazi enigma codes is acknowledged as having shortened the War in Europe by two years. When Britain left its colonies, all had that British law on their statue books. It was not repealed in Australia until 1994 and it has never been repealed in many British colonies like Singapore and Malaysia. In England it was repealed in 1967.

 

So anyone brought up in the 1950s, 1960s and even the 1970s (given that attitudes to moral issues like sexuality do not change overnight) faced immense hurdles in being known to be gay. The came HIV and AIDS which was originally thought to be just a gay plague known as GRID - gay related immune deficiency. So those who were openly gay faced even more hurdles. 

 

Thanks to the Stonewall Riots and the work of activists since then, there has been a slow but gradual change in the public's perception and understanding of homosexuality. Now it is no longer the law the prevents most gay men from coming out; it is cultural and historical norms. But these too are gradually breaking down. So being out of the closet over the last couple of decades or so has become much more accepted by societies, even though some remain anti-gay.

 

And it is surely these historical societal norms that make it difficult for some guys, like the OP, to acknowledge the other part of their sexuality. Being married , as he writes, "there is too much at stake if the secret is out." But perhaps he should think a little more about it. Does he have any friends he can discuss his situation with? How certain is he that his wife does not already know? Is a life always hating yourself and keeping such a major secret really a life? I wish I could offer advice but I have always been gay and have never married or had sex with a woman. I just wish him well.

[Steve5380]

44 minutes ago, InBangkok said:

 

And it is surely these historical societal norms that make it difficult for some guys, like the OP, to acknowledge the other part of their sexuality. Being married , as he writes, "there is too much at stake if the secret is out." But perhaps he should think a little more about it. Does he have any friends he can discuss his situation with? How certain is he that his wife does not already know? Is a life always hating yourself and keeping such a major secret really a life? I wish I could offer advice but I have always been gay and have never married or had sex with a woman. I just wish him well.

 

 

The confessant is living in today's world, not in historic times.  Whichever societal norms that makes it difficult for him to come out today may not be different from the historical ones.  All your speculations that people old like me or older are having problems due to generational gap are nothing but speculations.  So many Singaporean gays don't come out today because such societal norms.   And your speculations are nothing but that, because we don't know why the confessant got married and had children.  You would never do this, so you don't have any experience with this.  But I have such experience, and I can assume that he got married in good faith, thinking that he could be perfectly happy as a normal head of a family.  But now he finds out that his homosexual inclination is stronger than he may have anticipated, and gives in to some sex with men.  As a result, he feels guilty of doing something wrong.  It may be this issue of fidelity that poisons so many relationships.  This may be the same guilt straight men feel when they have some sex outside the marriage, and we can assume that they don't hate themselves for being straight, which "they have difficulty to acknowledge".  

 

[InBangkok]

55 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

The confessant is living in today's world, not in historic times.  Whichever societal norms that makes it difficult for him to come out today may not be different from the historical ones.  All your speculations that people old like me or older are having problems due to generational gap are nothing but speculations.  So many Singaporean gays don't come out today because such societal norms.   And your speculations are nothing but that, because we don't know why the confessant got married and had children.  You would never do this, so you don't have any experience with this.  But I have such experience, and I can assume that he got married in good faith, thinking that he could be perfectly happy as a normal head of a family. 

You clearly do not accept how times for gay men changed massively between the 1950s and 1980s. It's perfectly obvious to virtually all gay other men.  Besides, you speculate on the basis, I expect, of being a considerably older man who lived through those very difficult years when being openly gay was all but impossible. The OP is married. The OP has kids. As you have informed us, you divorced your wife almost 30 or so years ago. You cannot know what the feelings are of someone who is still married today, has kids and has never had more than fleeting gay encounters. You cannot and neither can I. So your speculations are as relevant or otherwise as mine.

[singalion]

On 6/27/2021 at 1:55 AM, BlinkOnce said:

"I’m married. I love my wife and kids. But there is this part of me that have sexual desires with man. I control my urges as much as possible, but I’m weak. Sometime I give in to my inner demons, I had fun.

In my defense (if it matters), I made sure it’s clean safe and non anal. That’s the bit of consolation I give to myself.

This is not right, I know. But I can’t help it. I hate myself for it. I want to be just like any other straight married man, but I know i can’t, and I plan to keep this a secret until I die.

There’s too much at stake if this secret is out. I can’t even imagine.

There’s nothing wrong being gay, but it’s wrong when you live your life under the pretense of something."

 

- I can't really offer any advice for this matter, because it seems like you are fully aware of the situation with its pros and cons yet are still stuck. I just hope writing out your struggle of keeping a secret helps alleviate it a little. Please treat your family members extra well, for you have been keeping a secret from them. Cheers.

_BlinkOnce

 

As starting comment:

Be warned I am quite blunt in my responses.

 

a) You should not hate yourself for being gay or bisexual. It might be a genetic result and you should not blame yourself for something you most probably can't do anything about.

With negativity you won't achieve anything and looking down on yourself is not a good thing for your self-respect.

 

b) Many gay men out there want to live the life just like a normal straight married man, together with his partner (hubby or wife as the case may be). That is nothing special. In Singapore, society still doesn't allow us to live our life and love.

 

c) Refrain from developing guilt feelings. Many straight guys who try to deny their gay self start having terrible psychological issues from start or later, they can even turn to homophobic hate and acts against gays because of not accepting what they are (and worse if religious background come in to this issue also)

Start to accept what you are and who you are.

Stop feeling inferior and compare to 100% straight guys.

Nothing is wrong!

 

You are not wrong, society is wrong in not accepting how we are and what we sexually prefer.

 

d) You had a choice to marry a wife or not. You went the conventional way. You gave in to societal negative views on homosexuality and thought by marrying you live the normal straight guy's life as everyone else. You failed because you can't rid yourself of your sexual attraction to guys.

Damn just accept it! Nothing will change your feelings for guys and oppressing your feeling will render any sex with a guy less enjoyable.

 

e) If you prefer to live in the closet, it is your personal choice because you permit other people to perpetuate their negative connotations with homosexuality.

Not sure on your age, but above 40y and surely above 50y you should liberate yourself , in particular when sex life with your spouse is 0.

If you can't, then stop lamenting here, because it was your personal choice to marry and to put yourself into a strict closet.

I m aware, Singapore is not as open as maybe Europe, but you must decide what load is heavier: being free to practise your choice of sexual preference or living with the daily risk being caught one day "red handed". And with your life style hiding your true self you put yourself into danger for guys trying to extort you money.

 

f) Most spouses are aware on the potential homosexuality of their husbands. There are too many tools to read your phone, know your whereabouts or even hire a private investigator. Your spouse might know much more about you than you would realise.

 

g) I personally don't place much different value whether a gay guy is cheating on his bf or a married guy cheating his wife with another girl or guy.

In my experience cheats just happen in any relationship due to various reasons. People judge too much on such cheating things in my personal view but forgetting what love means.

 

h) I can't know whether you actually had a sexual interest into women and would call yourself bisexual or whether you are gay but out of convenience or traditional background married a woman, but this is something you have to decide for yourself. There is no body here who can answer this question to you.

 

 

Edited July 31, 2021 by singalion

[Steve5380]

8 hours ago, InBangkok said:

You clearly do not accept how times for gay men changed massively between the 1950s and 1980s. It's perfectly obvious to virtually all gay other men.  Besides, you speculate on the basis, I expect, of being a considerably older man who lived through those very difficult years when being openly gay was all but impossible. The OP is married. The OP has kids. As you have informed us, you divorced your wife almost 30 or so years ago. You cannot know what the feelings are of someone who is still married today, has kids and has never had more than fleeting gay encounters. You cannot and neither can I. So your speculations are as relevant or otherwise as mine.

 

You are keeping up your unfounded blabber of old age, generational gap and past tragedies of gays.  Unfounded because you cannot possibly know what I accept and not accept. Why should my feelings as married man then, be different from the feelings of the confessant today? Or at any time in history?  Why this effort to make this confession here into a gay tragedy?  It may not be such a thing.  And "generational gap or not",  if 5% of men have homosexual attractions, this is 250,000 Singaporeans. There are surely not so many in the Singapore gay scene today.  So the majority may still keep their homosexuality to themselves. 

 

This case may not be different from the case of millions of straight married men who are not "in the closet" and have no issues with their orientation.  After marriage, often the spouses don't care as much about their looks anymore, and she becomes less and less attractive, especially after having her babies. The man consequently develops urges to have sex with a  woman he feels attracted to, he goes to a whorehouse and fucks. If laden with guilt and hating himself he goes to confession, the priest will NOT tell him:  "go and "come out" to your wife about your infidelity". Instead he may say: "son, have remorse and try to not sin anymore".

 

Some spurious infidelity in married men is so common that we cannot be sure that our fathers didn't have these experiences themselves while not revealing them. 

I interpret the same in the confession here. And this has nothing of "old-fashioned thinking".  He loves his family but occasionally he must satisfy some urges for sex with another partner, in his case a man instead of a woman. And similarly, I would NOT urge him to confess this to his wife. Thanks to @BlinkOnce he has the opportunity to confess here anonymously and get it off his chest. And I am pleased to see that I'm not the only one to recommend him to put aside feelings of guilt and self-hate, accept this natural imperfection we human beings have and learn to live with it.  I can say from personal experience that even with his lack of total freedom, he can make a success out of his life. 

[singalion]

@BlinkOnce

 

Can we give the confessions some sort of title? 

 

And not just #2

 

thanks

[singalion]

Steve and InBangkok: 

 

Your fights are taking over at every thread... 🤣

[Steve5380]

.

Edited August 1, 2021 by Steve5380

[BlinkOnce]

11 hours ago, singalion said:

@BlinkOnce

 

Can we give the confessions some sort of title? 

 

And not just #2

 

thanks

I did consider whether I should put a descriptive title but I was a bit scared I unintentionally direct the readers' understanding in the direction different from that of the confessant. But I'll try my best then. Thanks for the advice.

[singalion]

20 hours ago, BlinkOnce said:

I did consider whether I should put a descriptive title but I was a bit scared I unintentionally direct the readers' understanding in the direction different from that of the confessant. But I'll try my best then. Thanks for the advice.

 

How about "Married but desire for men". The confessing person wrote it himself. so should be fine.

 

the other way would be to make the confessing person write a title himself/ herself.

 

 

[Steve5380]

On 8/2/2021 at 8:31 AM, singalion said:

 

How about "Married but desire for men". The confessing person wrote it himself. so should be fine.

 

the other way would be to make the confessing person write a title himself/ herself.

 

 

 

I confess that I prefer the way @BlinkOnce has set it up:  Confession-N ( N from 1 to infinite)

 

This identifies clearly what is a "confession"  someone turned into BW for comments,  as opposed to a regular thread.

[InBangkok]

On 8/1/2021 at 12:14 PM, singalion said:

Steve and InBangkok: 

 

Your fights are taking over at every thread... 🤣

Now that is a total exaggeration and you know it. How many threads? Please tell us. And how many threads are there on the BW forum? Please stick to facts. Oh, and I note the that you and @Steve5380have had your occasional disagreements and "fights", have you not?

[singalion]

10 hours ago, InBangkok said:

Now that is a total exaggeration and you know it. How many threads? Please tell us. And how many threads are there on the BW forum? Please stick to facts. Oh, and I note the that you and @Steve5380have had your occasional disagreements and "fights", have you not?

 

A bit of teasing boy!

 

But you seem to bump on each other (but not the sexual type) where one of you posts something and then it goes hence and forth...

 

Can't you both just dig your swords in the sand and leave them there and move on?

 

Maybe just ignore each other...

 

 

[InBangkok]

14 hours ago, singalion said:

 

A bit of teasing boy!

 

But you seem to bump on each other (but not the sexual type) where one of you posts something and then it goes hence and forth...

 

Can't you both just dig your swords in the sand and leave them there and move on?

 

Maybe just ignore each other...

I could have written the same about you and @Steve5380 earlier but I did not. The moderators decide how BW is run. Unless instructed by them I put no one on ignore! 

Edited August 6, 2021 by InBangkok

[30yochinese]

On 6/27/2021 at 1:55 AM, BlinkOnce said:

"I’m married. I love my wife and kids. But there is this part of me that have sexual desires with man. I control my urges as much as possible, but I’m weak. Sometime I give in to my inner demons, I had fun.

In my defense (if it matters), I made sure it’s clean safe and non anal. That’s the bit of consolation I give to myself.

This is not right, I know. But I can’t help it. I hate myself for it. I want to be just like any other straight married man, but I know i can’t, and I plan to keep this a secret until I die.

There’s too much at stake if this secret is out. I can’t even imagine.

There’s nothing wrong being gay, but it’s wrong when you live your life under the pretense of something."

 

- I can't really offer any advice for this matter, because it seems like you are fully aware of the situation with its pros and cons yet are still stuck. I just hope writing out your struggle of keeping a secret helps alleviate it a little. Please treat your family members extra well, for you have been keeping a secret from them. Cheers.

_BlinkOnce

Hi there 👋! didn't know this thread existed, my job here is to help u RID U OFF UR inner demons, & i hope u sleep better tonite🥰😍🤩. i am the opposite of U:

       

-came out in 2015,

-told my Parents:

i am attracted to men, i hate women, I'll never get married, so pls forgive me for not giving u GrdChildren.

   

   

right now, all my friends are married with 2 kids, i look at my peers & laugh, why? Coz i have seen the dirty side of Married Men... 1 Korean Guy asked me to host him, & another tried to get acquainted with me... can i use the example of these 2 married men as my assumption that when they are in their late 40s, something has happened to make their marriage stagnant, & that's why they are approaching me?

   

   

i am not here to tarnish the reputation of Married Men, i want to speak up for them... that their sexual needs are not being met like... their need for fun, their need for Power coz Men naturally feel Powerful when they sexually dominate a guy or girl, & Lastly, their need for Survival coz Having Sex is a survival need esp for Procreation... 

   

     

tbh,

i am scared of giving u a suggestion... coz many here will shoot arrows at me... but i will give u my PERSONAL OPINION on how to solve the problem:

  

let's say U tell ur wife,

that i am your new bff,

we don't need to get intimate to fulfil ur sexual need, we ALSO don't need to have oral sex, what would i do with a married man... if he was my bff? 

    

   

probably things which are safer that will excite him, within the boundaries of a Brotherly Love(i know u think this is silly), like Phone Sex, coz once i cross the boundary of going physical with him... i will leave him feeling displaced & it can be traumatic for some men...

   

     

So i hope u can find a safe avenue to meet ur need... & Also fulfil ur legal obligations, coz u WERE THE ONE AT THE ALTAR IN UR TUXEDO WHO WILLINGLY SAID: "For Better or For Worse, For Richer or Poorer", so U have to fulfil that Vow for the rest of ur life buddy, till then, pls sleep well tonite... 😘

   

    

Edited August 8, 2021 by 30yochinese
.