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Taiwan, one of the unresolved issues in East Asia...


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On 4/30/2022 at 7:45 AM, InBangkok said:

So now you are copying @Steve5380's manner of posting without bothering to place an emoji or LOL after such a reply!

 

Emojis and "ha ha" are only necessary for those klotz who don't have a sense of humor, or take things too seriously.

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On 4/30/2022 at 1:17 AM, InBangkok said:

I have arrived at quite a few 4- and 5-star US hotel chain hotels late in the evening. Keen for a beer or a whisky to relax before bed, I have found the in-room refrigerators absolutely empty! Is this because US travellers have a habit of stealing from them? I certainly heard from one hotel manager that the small vodka and whisky bottles had several times been opened, the alcohol consumed and then replaced with water and weak tea before the cap was replaced! I have never had an empty in-room refrigerator empty in either mainland China.

 

I imagine that when a snide guest leaves the mini-fridge completely empty and then checks out, when the cleaning lady makes the room and discovers the empty fridge, the establishment will charge the guest with the credit card they have on file.

 

But this is only an assumption.  I like the establishments, not 5-star, where the mini-fridge comes empty, and I can put in my own stuff.  I don't drink booze nor sugary drinks,  don't eat cheap candy,  so I often not even open these fridges.

 

BTW,  I disagree that Americans are more dishonest than people in other countries.

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On 4/30/2022 at 9:39 PM, Steve5380 said:

BTW,  I disagree that Americans are more dishonest than people in other countries.

I wonder did the earth just stood still.  A moment ago, we send you to bed and now you are here almost instantly.  I suspect, you didn't sleep well because I spoke the truth.

 

Dishonesty could mean you are a liar, you are a thief, you are corrupt, you cheat or spread fake news. America leader needs the help of any of those to become a president.   I didn't say without proof, almost every president criticised their opponents on being "dishonest" during campaigning. 

 

 

 

Edited by Why?
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On 4/30/2022 at 8:45 PM, InBangkok said:

So now you are copying @Steve5380's manner of posting without bothering to place an emoji or LOL after such a reply!

 

not exactly. Because Steve would only mention this as a step out of the backlash defence, after he insulted someone rudely... in trying his luck that such strategy would save him... 

 

My post already lacked any insult!

 

See the difference?

 

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On 4/30/2022 at 9:30 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

Emojis and "ha ha" are only necessary for those klotz who don't have a sense of humor, or take things too seriously.

 

Klotz?

what schnukkelik Kitsch is that?

 

Did you listen too long to Kletzchmer music?

 

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On 4/30/2022 at 12:58 AM, sgmaven said:

I think you rate the likes of Intel too highly... TSMC is about the only company at the moment who can comfortably manufacture semiconductors at the 5 nanometre node. Intel has been struggling for years to shrink their node-size, but failing. That is why the earlier advances in the i-Core chips have stalled, and they have been relying on adding more cores to their systems to get a bit of a speed boost. You may also say that TSMC is building a 5 nm FAB in the US, but by the time the first chips roll off the production in the US, TSMC will probably be manufacturing at the 3 nm node in Taiwan. Don't underestimate the impact of a war involving Taiwan will mean to how we live today. Semiconductors are literally in everything, not just our household goods. All it takes is for a few of the major FABs in Taiwan to be damaged or destroyed in a war, and we will probably have to kiss goodbye to any new iPhone, car, fridge, TV for the next 5-10 years. Not only that, it will hit commerce, as so much of banking and commerce now relies on a computing backbone. All those Cloud services may have to cut back on services, so even social media will be impacted. We are not talking about a simple belt-tightening, since all out war could result in all of the Taiwanese FABs to be destroyed/damaged. That would really set all our computing systems back, with no replacement parts or new systems.

 

Me rating Intel too highly?  I rate it poorly for having lost their leadership position.  But I rate their technology very highly.   I remember the days when "electronics" meant vacuum tubes, ha ha.

 

I have not updated my desktop computer in many years.  The reason is that...  I don't need more functionality.  It has all the power I need, even when I was working as a software development engineer.  It runs with an Intel Core i5 661,  a noble antique made with 2 cores and a 32 nm lithography.  The newer Intel's, their 11th generation, have 8 cores and 10 nm geometry.  This more, more than satisfies consumer needs and most business needs. 

 

The benefits of ever smaller geometries is:  1) higher speed 2) smaller size 3) lower power consumption.  Very few applications need improvements in these factors,  and cellular phones, car, fridge, TV are not among them.  Even the sophisticated cars of today and near future don't need much processing speed, small size, low power.  And a fridge?  where in heavens is the need of a fridge to have microelectronics?? 

 

TSMC  has about half or the world semiconductor market.  If it disappears overnight, it won't have a catastrophic effect like 50% of oil or food disappearing.  New semiconductors are needed ONLY for new products.  Contrary to vacuum tubes, the life of semiconductors is practically unlimited.

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On 4/30/2022 at 9:09 AM, singalion said:

 

Klotz?

what schnukkelik Kitsch is that?

 

Did you listen too long to Kletzchmer music?

 

Schnukkelik?  Are you inventing new words?  Not even a klotz would use this one!

 

Kletzchmer?  Another invention?  You seem to be creative today.  Or did you mean "klezmer"?

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Posted (edited)
On 4/30/2022 at 10:24 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

Schnukkelik?  Are you inventing new words?  Not even a klotz would use this one!

 

Kletzchmer?  Another invention?  You seem to be creative today.  Or did you mean "klezmer"?

 

not sure what mishpoke you're from... 

 

Any real spelling for that language?

 

You must be a schlimazel person... 

 

Edited by singalion
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On 4/30/2022 at 9:39 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

I imagine that when a snide guest leaves the mini-fridge completely empty and then checks out, when the cleaning lady makes the room and discovers the empty fridge, the establishment will charge the guest with the credit card they have on file.

 

But this is only an assumption.  I like the establishments, not 5-star, where the mini-fridge comes empty, and I can put in my own stuff.  I don't drink booze nor sugary drinks,  don't eat cheap candy,  so I often not even open these fridges.

 

BTW,  I disagree that Americans are more dishonest than people in other countries.

 

Can your packages of lentils and peanuts fit?

 

😂

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On 4/30/2022 at 9:47 PM, Why? said:

I wonder did the earth just stood still.  A moment ago, we send you to bed and now you are here almost instantly.  I suspect, you didn't sleep well because I spoke the truth.

 

Dishonesty could mean you are a liar, you are a thief, you are corrupt, you cheat or spread fake news. America leader needs the help of any of those to become a president.   I didn't say without proof, almost every president criticised their opponents on being "dishonest" during campaigning. 

 

 

 

 

Funny that one of your posts is totally in weird Singlish and the other in more or less halfway serious English... 

 

Actually you should just post under your usual Guest profile... 

 

🤣

 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/30/2022 at 10:17 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

Me rating Intel too highly?  I rate it poorly for having lost their leadership position.  But I rate their technology very highly.   I remember the days when "electronics" meant vacuum tubes, ha ha.

 

I have not updated my desktop computer in many years.  The reason is that...  I don't need more functionality.  It has all the power I need, even when I was working as a software development engineer.  It runs with an Intel Core i5 661,  a noble antique made with 2 cores and a 32 nm lithography.  The newer Intel's, their 11th generation, have 8 cores and 10 nm geometry.  This more, more than satisfies consumer needs and most business needs. 

 

The benefits of ever smaller geometries is:  1) higher speed 2) smaller size 3) lower power consumption.  Very few applications need improvements in these factors,  and cellular phones, car, fridge, TV are not among them.  Even the sophisticated cars of today and near future don't need much processing speed, small size, low power.  And a fridge?  where in heavens is the need of a fridge to have microelectronics?? 

 

TSMC  has about half or the world semiconductor market.  If it disappears overnight, it won't have a catastrophic effect like 50% of oil or food disappearing.  New semiconductors are needed ONLY for new products.  Contrary to vacuum tubes, the life of semiconductors is practically unlimited.

 

Quite off topic.. 

 

 

But the instrumental music youtubes should be hanging often then...

 

Edited by singalion
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On 4/30/2022 at 9:52 AM, singalion said:

 

Quite off topic.. 

 

 

But the instrumental music youtubes should be hanging often then...

 

 

What is off topic are your rants with @Why?  Here we are commenting on the impact of a war on Taiwan's TSMC.

 

LOL!  I first thought of "instrumental music youtubes hanging" as exotic organs where the tubes hang from something!

 

No.  The Internet and YouTube work fine today.  They don't need semiconductors from TSMC with 5 or 3 nm geometry to keep running fine.

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On 4/30/2022 at 1:44 PM, sgmaven said:

Unfortunately, being well-educated and exposed to the West doesn't guarantee that the person becomes more "liberal" in thought. I know a guy from China, who is currently working in Singapore, has a PhD (well-educated) and even post-doc-ed in Norway (the West). He is usually a well-mannered and mild-mannered person. Yet, he feels so strongly against the Japanese that he refuses to visit Japan. No doubt, due to years of indoctrination in China.

Sadly, there are also highly educated Singaporeans who are bought into Chinese propaganda. 

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There is a view that the punitive sanctions levelled against Russia will make China less emboldened to take over Taiwan now. But can the same case be made against China, when there is strictly no violation of territorial integrity if China attacks Taiwan, since the latter is recognised by almost every country in the world to be a part of China. What legitimate grounds could be assembled to punish China? If America does not come to the aid (militarily) of Taiwan, can Taiwan withstand the onslaught of a full-scale attack? And if it falls quickly with minimal casualties, will the international community still want to 'punish' China?

 

I do not wish for China to take over Taiwan by force. I believe in the right to self-determination so long as the entity which wishes to secede can be economically viable and the separation does not harm the prospects of the country to which it originally belongs. Hopefully the uncertainty of what the international community (or at least Taiwan's allies) will do is sufficient to deter China. 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/30/2022 at 11:23 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

What is off topic are your rants with .Here we are commenting on the impact of a war on Taiwan's TSMC.

 

LOL!  I first thought of "instrumental music youtubes hanging" as exotic organs where the tubes hang from something!

 

No.  The Internet and YouTube work fine today.  They don't need semiconductors from TSMC with 5 or 3 nm geometry to keep running fine.

 

But can the browsers manage the required updates on such old versions of Desktops?

 

I don't see where I went off topic with "Why". 

 

I thought I even gave him plenty of chances to detail his views or standpoints... 

 

 

Edited by singalion
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On 5/1/2022 at 1:02 AM, Kenichi said:

There is a view that the punitive sanctions levelled against Russia will make China less emboldened to take over Taiwan now. But can the same case be made against China, when there is strictly no violation of territorial integrity if China attacks Taiwan, since the latter is recognised by almost every country in the world to be a part of China. What legitimate grounds could be assembled to punish China? If America does not come to the aid (militarily) of Taiwan, can Taiwan withstand the onslaught of a full-scale attack? And if it falls quickly with minimal casualties, will the international community still want to 'punish' China?

 

I do not wish for China to take over Taiwan by force. I believe in the right to self-determination so long as the entity which wishes to secede can be economically viable and the separation does not harm the prospects of the country to which it originally belongs. Hopefully the uncertainty of what the international community (or at least Taiwan's allies) will do is sufficient to deter China. 

 

If China doesn't need to fear any negative backlash hadn't it already invaded Taiwan?

 

If I m correct, the US said that it would assist Taiwan in defending from any attack by China.

 

=> The Taiwan Relations Act does not guarantee the U.S. will intervene militarily if the PRC attacks or invades Taiwan nor does it relinquish it, as its primary purpose is to ensure the US's Taiwan policy will not be changed unilaterally by the president and ensure any decision to defend Taiwan will be made with the consent of Congress. The act states that "the United States will make available to Taiwan such defense articles and defense services in such quantity as may be necessary to enable Taiwan to maintain a sufficient self-defense capabilities". However, the decision about the nature and quantity of defense services that America will provide to Taiwan is to be determined by the President and Congress

 

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On 5/1/2022 at 1:02 AM, Kenichi said:

There is a view that the punitive sanctions levelled against Russia will make China less emboldened to take over Taiwan now. But can the same case be made against China, when there is strictly no violation of territorial integrity if China attacks Taiwan, since the latter is recognised by almost every country in the world to be a part of China. What legitimate grounds could be assembled to punish China? If America does not come to the aid (militarily) of Taiwan, can Taiwan withstand the onslaught of a full-scale attack? And if it falls quickly with minimal casualties, will the international community still want to 'punish' China?

BBC = Biden says US will defend Taiwan if China attacks

 

Well, Biden has already made public that the US will come to Taiwan's aid, if China attacks.

 

Frankly, a full-on assault on Taiwan by China is far more complicated than Russia's invasion of the Ukraine. The primary reason being that the border between Russia and the Ukraine is mostly flat land, easy to push your tanks and infantry through. An assault on Taiwan, would mean engaging in an amphibious landing with a scale never seen before in history (a few fold the size of the D-Day landings by the Allies in Normandy).

 

We all know that Russia had steadily built up its forces along the border with the Ukraine, months before the invasion. Something like that would likely have to happen on the coasts of China nearest Taiwan. Surely this would alert the international community, especially after what happened with the Ukraine.

 

Also, do note that Taiwan is not exactly easy to "attack", since the choice of amphibious landing sites are also limited. Considering the point earlier, it will provide the government in Taipei to start shoring up coastal defenses, like mining the coastal waters, and placing more obstacles on the beaches and likely landing sites.

 

While you may have a point about most countries recognising the PRC as the "legitimate" China, and an attack would equate to being at most a "civil war", do bear in mind that the UN has still stepped in in various "civil wars". Together with the potential economic impact of the loss of the Taiwanese semiconductor industry in a war, it would most certainly force some countries into action.

 

On 5/1/2022 at 1:02 AM, Kenichi said:

I do not wish for China to take over Taiwan by force. I believe in the right to self-determination so long as the entity which wishes to secede can be economically viable and the separation does not harm the prospects of the country to which it originally belongs. Hopefully the uncertainty of what the international community (or at least Taiwan's allies) will do is sufficient to deter China. 

I don't think anyone in the right mind would wish for PRC China to take Taiwan by force, and this has always been what had held the peace. The US would state that they would come to Taiwan's aid, if they were attacked; PRC China would say that they would only attack if Taiwan declared independence (trying to secede). That is why, even Tsai Ing-Wen, who is from the pro-independence DPP, does not even state anything about Taiwanese independence, despite the DPP being in power for some time.

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On 4/30/2022 at 10:17 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

Me rating Intel too highly?  I rate it poorly for having lost their leadership position.  But I rate their technology very highly.   I remember the days when "electronics" meant vacuum tubes, ha ha.

 

I have not updated my desktop computer in many years.  The reason is that...  I don't need more functionality.  It has all the power I need, even when I was working as a software development engineer.  It runs with an Intel Core i5 661,  a noble antique made with 2 cores and a 32 nm lithography.  The newer Intel's, their 11th generation, have 8 cores and 10 nm geometry.  This more, more than satisfies consumer needs and most business needs. 

 

The benefits of ever smaller geometries is:  1) higher speed 2) smaller size 3) lower power consumption.  Very few applications need improvements in these factors,  and cellular phones, car, fridge, TV are not among them.  Even the sophisticated cars of today and near future don't need much processing speed, small size, low power.  And a fridge?  where in heavens is the need of a fridge to have microelectronics?? 

 

TSMC  has about half or the world semiconductor market.  If it disappears overnight, it won't have a catastrophic effect like 50% of oil or food disappearing.  New semiconductors are needed ONLY for new products.  Contrary to vacuum tubes, the life of semiconductors is practically unlimited.

It is funny how people do not realise how much our lives depend on semiconductors. While your old CPU may continue to chug along, don't forget that many services that you are used to on that PC are dependent on the latest chips. From shopping on Amazon to doing a Google search, all these "simple and basic" tasks involve server farms that are heavily-reliant on the latest chips. With the heavy loads on these systems, their replacement cycles are far shorter than your home PC that you are so proud of.

 

Also, don't forget that semiconductors go beyond just CPUs, but also memory chips that sit in your PC and phones, modems and chips that drive your GPS in your car, etc. Just because TSMC only "owns" about 50% of the semiconductor market doesn't tell you the real picture, because of how many companies' entire chip lines are produced by TSMC. Destroying TSMC may mean that the world will lose its entire supply of a certain type of chip. Sure, you say that there are other FABs, but it will take months or even years to retool those FABs to even try manufacturing those chips (and presuming that the FABs are at the same technological node as the ones in Taiwan, which most FABs in the world are not).

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On 4/30/2022 at 1:38 PM, sgmaven said:

It is funny how people do not realise how much our lives depend on semiconductors. While your old CPU may continue to chug along, don't forget that many services that you are used to on that PC are dependent on the latest chips. From shopping on Amazon to doing a Google search, all these "simple and basic" tasks involve server farms that are heavily-reliant on the latest chips. With the heavy loads on these systems, their replacement cycles are far shorter than your home PC that you are so proud of.

 

Also, don't forget that semiconductors go beyond just CPUs, but also memory chips that sit in your PC and phones, modems and chips that drive your GPS in your car, etc. Just because TSMC only "owns" about 50% of the semiconductor market doesn't tell you the real picture, because of how many companies' entire chip lines are produced by TSMC. Destroying TSMC may mean that the world will lose its entire supply of a certain type of chip. Sure, you say that there are other FABs, but it will take months or even years to retool those FABs to even try manufacturing those chips (and presuming that the FABs are at the same technological node as the ones in Taiwan, which most FABs in the world are not).

 

It is funny how people believe that our lives depend on semiconductors in any significant way compared to our dependence on food and energy.   My perfectly well old CPU is an example of how logical chips don't need to use the latest technologies.  Memory chips like the flash NAND chips used in non-volatile memory don't benefit from the latest fine geometries used in logical chips.  Memory cells need a minimum area, electrons, to store the data, and 15nm geometry is about a minimum,  not 5 or 3 nm.  And a lot of advances in memory chips,  like the 3D NANDs, is made by other manufacturers besides Intel and TSMC.

 

Don't forget that the huge servers that sustain Google, Microsoft and many internet users like Amazon, Netflix,  etc. etc. ALREADY EXIST and are doing fine.  So they don't need many new semiconductors.  Internet users like Netflix are even shrinking, and,  and there is no urgency that others expand rapidly.  They are not consumables, like cars, cellphones.   Although there are advantages in replacing data centers every couple of years due to increased density of semiconductors,  this increase is slowing down.  Moore's law is running out of the capabilities given by physics. And like with everything else,  if there is a shortage of semiconductors, the servers will not be replaced, period!  The older ones will keep running,  and our lives will not be affected.

 

Given the horror of a war,  I think that the world can afford the loss of TSMC.  This, in case it is destroyed and not taken over intact by the PRC.  But... can we afford the loss of the Taipei Pride parade?   The PRC would surely destroy it!

.

 

 

Edited by Steve5380
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I really find it amusing when a person assumes that high-end servers in Data Centres run like their PCs at home, with the same sporadic work load. Unfortunately, these are high-stress, high-load environments that demand device replacements not because of obsolescence, but due to device failure,

 

Memory chips I am referring to are not your solid-state storage SSDs, but RAM chips, that do demand the latest technology to manufacture. Thankfully, the South Koreans have good market share of the market, and not the Taiwanese. However, you can be sure that any invasion of Taiwan is going to affect the supply chain of these chips.

 

Also, there are numerous controllers in modern electronic gadget that make use of silicon chips. Don't be surprised that one FAB in the world may be producing most of just one chipset. Talking about older technologies, that's where global economics comes into play. Most FABs will not retool unless there is a commercial need to, being such an expensive endeavour, so don't be surprised if the loss of just one FAB in Taiwan may lead into a crippling shortage of a particular chip, which may be a crucial component into things ranging from your GPS chip to a chip that helps one of the US' guided missiles find their target.

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On 4/30/2022 at 10:49 PM, singalion said:

 

Funny that one of your posts is totally in weird Singlish and the other in more or less halfway serious English... 

 

Actually you should just post under your usual Guest profile... 

 

🤣

 

What are you talking about.  Are you questioning my versatility?

 

Now back to the topic of Taiwan.  Its president has more wisdom than Ukraine president. The two are completely different animal. Taiwan politics are divided into two camps, one pro to China, one anti to china. The anti-china politicians are afraid of antagonising China, in case the pro-China politicans get inroad into power.  It is a balancing politics because Taiwanese love peace, not war. Thus America trying to influence Taiwan is a waste of time, resources and energy. 

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On 4/30/2022 at 9:24 PM, sgmaven said:

I really find it amusing when a person assumes that high-end servers in Data Centres run like their PCs at home, with the same sporadic work load. Unfortunately, these are high-stress, high-load environments that demand device replacements not because of obsolescence, but due to device failure,

 

Memory chips I am referring to are not your solid-state storage SSDs, but RAM chips, that do demand the latest technology to manufacture. Thankfully, the South Koreans have good market share of the market, and not the Taiwanese. However, you can be sure that any invasion of Taiwan is going to affect the supply chain of these chips.

 

Also, there are numerous controllers in modern electronic gadget that make use of silicon chips. Don't be surprised that one FAB in the world may be producing most of just one chipset. Talking about older technologies, that's where global economics comes into play. Most FABs will not retool unless there is a commercial need to, being such an expensive endeavour, so don't be surprised if the loss of just one FAB in Taiwan may lead into a crippling shortage of a particular chip, which may be a crucial component into things ranging from your GPS chip to a chip that helps one of the US' guided missiles find their target.

 

I really find it amusing when a person wants to argue about semiconductors with a person who as an electrical engineer spent his whole career around semiconductors,  designing hardware and software for computers, embedded systems, programmable gate arrays, etc.  Semiconductor theory and technology is part of my professional training.

 

Data centers don't require the most sophisticated semiconductors.  They don't need so much processing power as much  as they must provide throughput of high data volumes at high data rates, maybe with an exception for complex algorithms of search engines.  A good designed data center does not need to impose "high stress, high load environment" to its semiconductors.  As long as these run at the correct voltage and adequate speed for their adequate cooling, they can run 100% of the time without "wearing out". Device failure may happen not because of stress but because of the huge number of semiconductors. My old PC is on all day long, 16 hours a day, now for about 10 years.  It still uses DDR3 RAM, and surely the data servers don't need to go beyond DDR4 RAM. The latest DDR5 should go to uses of advanced graphics,  advanced computer games, ha, ha,  and supercomputers. Plus many other uses that demand high processing power at high speeds,  not so much the data centers.

.

Edited by Steve5380
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On 5/1/2022 at 12:00 PM, Steve5380 said:

They don't need so much processing power as much  as they must provide throughput of high data volumes at high data rates, maybe with an exception for complex algorithms of search engines.

And don't tell me that the likes of Google and Amazon do not run complex algorithms for their search engines. And also the services that more and more enterprises are relying on, that use a base-layer of AI/algorithms to excute.

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On 5/1/2022 at 2:01 AM, sgmaven said:

And don't tell me that the likes of Google and Amazon do not run complex algorithms for their search engines. And also the services that more and more enterprises are relying on, that use a base-layer of AI/algorithms to excute.

 

I won't tell you that.  I recognize that these data centers also do complex computations that require good CPUs and RAMs, and...  THEY HAVE THEM TODAY.  If TSMC disappears today, they should have enough spare parts to keep running for many years, and even if not, they won't completely disappear from the market.

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On 5/1/2022 at 8:33 PM, Steve5380 said:

If TSMC disappears today, they should have enough spare parts to keep running for many years, and even if not, they won't completely disappear from the market.

I appreciate your optimism and your faith in those data centres...

 

COVID didn't shut down TSMC, and neither is the Ukraine a semiconductor player, yet both these brought major upheaval to the supply chain of numerous industries that have reliance on chips. I don't even want to imagine how even a limited war in Taiwan would impact these industries.

 

Don't forget, South Korea, the largest manufacturer of volatile memory chips, is not far off from Taiwan, and will most certainly get pulled into the conflict too.

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On 5/1/2022 at 2:27 AM, sgmaven said:

BBC = Biden says US will defend Taiwan if China attacks

 

Well, Biden has already made public that the US will come to Taiwan's aid, if China attacks.

 

Frankly, a full-on assault on Taiwan by China is far more complicated than Russia's invasion of the Ukraine. The primary reason being that the border between Russia and the Ukraine is mostly flat land, easy to push your tanks and infantry through. An assault on Taiwan, would mean engaging in an amphibious landing with a scale never seen before in history (a few fold the size of the D-Day landings by the Allies in Normandy).

 

We all know that Russia had steadily built up its forces along the border with the Ukraine, months before the invasion. Something like that would likely have to happen on the coasts of China nearest Taiwan. Surely this would alert the international community, especially after what happened with the Ukraine.

 

Also, do note that Taiwan is not exactly easy to "attack", since the choice of amphibious landing sites are also limited. Considering the point earlier, it will provide the government in Taipei to start shoring up coastal defenses, like mining the coastal waters, and placing more obstacles on the beaches and likely landing sites.

 

While you may have a point about most countries recognising the PRC as the "legitimate" China, and an attack would equate to being at most a "civil war", do bear in mind that the UN has still stepped in in various "civil wars". Together with the potential economic impact of the loss of the Taiwanese semiconductor industry in a war, it would most certainly force some countries into action.

 

I don't think anyone in the right mind would wish for PRC China to take Taiwan by force, and this has always been what had held the peace. The US would state that they would come to Taiwan's aid, if they were attacked; PRC China would say that they would only attack if Taiwan declared independence (trying to secede). That is why, even Tsai Ing-Wen, who is from the pro-independence DPP, does not even state anything about Taiwanese independence, despite the DPP being in power for some time.

It’s good to know that the hurdles are high. Let’s hope there are no crazy people in power who think differently and ignore hard logic calculations. 

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On 5/1/2022 at 7:54 AM, sgmaven said:

I appreciate your optimism and your faith in those data centres...

 

COVID didn't shut down TSMC, and neither is the Ukraine a semiconductor player, yet both these brought major upheaval to the supply chain of numerous industries that have reliance on chips. I don't even want to imagine how even a limited war in Taiwan would impact these industries.

 

Don't forget, South Korea, the largest manufacturer of volatile memory chips, is not far off from Taiwan, and will most certainly get pulled into the conflict too.

 

Good that you brought up South Korea, and of course, Samsung.   This fraction of an earlier bigger country is a good example of autonomy, and where thanks to the strong presence of the US military there, no one fools around with it.

 

Which makes me think that if America establishes diplomatic relations with Taiwan  (not  a republic of China), and is invited by the Taiwanese to establish a base there, China may think three times before invading it.

 

But I don't want to sound too naive, ha ha.

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On 5/1/2022 at 11:02 PM, Steve5380 said:

But I don't want to sound too naive, ha ha.

I think it is naïve to think that China would not do anything if America establishes a base in Taiwan... It is a sure-fire way to escalate the already tense situation.

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On 5/1/2022 at 1:54 PM, sgmaven said:

I think it is naïve to think that China would not do anything if America establishes a base in Taiwan... It is a sure-fire way to escalate the already tense situation.

 

If I sound naive, this does not mean that I am naive.   Naive was Putin thinking that he could take possession of Ukraine in a couple of days.  But I think that it is much more difficult to take possession of Taiwan.  Since it is an island, it cannot be invaded by land.  By sea it could be reached by amphibious vehicles released by battleships,  but modern torpedoes can travel longer distances than the amphibious, so the ships would have to be in reach of nice big torpedoes launched from the Taiwan shores.  And the invasion could be by air, with these forces becoming nice targets of anti air defense systems.  But still Taiwan could be exposed to ballistic missiles launched by China from the mainland, ships or airplanes.   Which means that if not invaded, the island could be at most destroyed,  which is what may end up happening in Ukraine.  Would the PRC be so stupid to just destroy Taiwan? 

 

The difficulty to protect against missile attacks is surely prompting a huge effort of research and development of anti missile defense systems.  Who knows what is in the works, the highest efforts would be the defense against hypersonic missiles, but if systems appear that are effective,  this could virtually end the possibilities of one country to attack and invade another one. 

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Don't forget that the East of Taiwan is very mountainous. I won't be surprised if there are secret installations in that part of Taiwan for the government to retreat to (from Taipei), so as to be able to function as a command centre to direct the troops.

 

You are quite right that an invasion of Taiwan would involve a huge amphibious landing, and probably parachuting legions down from the skies too. Both would be easy targets, unless the Chinese decimate the Taiwanese Air Force before that. And even then, the anti-ship and anti-aircraft missiles can still do a lot of damage.

 

There are many parallels with the Russian invasion of the Ukraine, with most Chinese seeing the Taiwanese as their "brothers". So, I do wonder what sort of stomach they have, when it comes to fighting them (even if the Beijing has ordered the attack)?

 

The same would also apply, when the body bags start returning to China.

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On 5/1/2022 at 10:02 PM, Steve5380 said:

Good that you brought up South Korea, and of course, Samsung.   This fraction of an earlier bigger country is a good example of autonomy, and where thanks to the strong presence of the US military there, no one fools around with it.

 

Which makes me think that if America establishes diplomatic relations with Taiwan  (not  a republic of China), and is invited by the Taiwanese to establish a base there, China may think three times before invading it.

 

But I don't want to sound too naive, ha ha.

Naive, certainly, for it shows how little you know about the facts of Asian history, particularly that of China and Korea. There is no similarity to the situations that Taiwan and South Korea face. There are American forces in South Korea for the simple reason that the Americans and the United Nations were involved in a horrible three-year war on the peninsula which almost involved the Chinese. There is still no peace treaty between the North and South.

 

At the start of that war Kim Il Sung had come very close to taking over the entire peninsula. That so horrified the Americans that they and UN forces escaped and the relanded in the peninsula at Incheon with a view to continuing the fight and restoring the repressive rule of their dreadful puppet Syngman Rhee in the South.

 

With no peace treaty in place - even today, America decided it had no choice but keep forces in the South to ensure the North did not again try to invade. Since then there has been a very close relationship between the two countries. South Korean forces have fought alongside Americans in every major military conflict from Vietnam to Iraq. Further south there has never been a war between Taiwan and China even during the Cold War, and never been any direct US involvement other than supplying Taiwan with arms.

 

In today's realpolitik, with China as the world's second largest economic power with the world's largest and extremely well equipped military, the thought that the US would even establish a military base in Taiwan is laughable. It will not happen. As others have noted, if there was an invasion, it would certainly end in a bloodbath. But there can be no doubt in such an event that troops from the mainland would obey their orders and China would quickly win.

 

Against that, surely no Chinese government has any interest in flattening Taipei and other cities. Hence my belief that despite the rhetoric, Beijing will eventually return to a softly-softly approach - always provided there is no attempt by Taiwan to proclaim independence,

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On the talk of war, we haven't seen two nations with real state-of-the-art weaponry have a go at each other recently. The wars have mainly been proxy wars (with no full-on engagement between major powers), or one where one side is much stronger than the other.

 

Yet, the conflict in the Ukraine has taught us a thing or two about modern warfare. While air-superiority means a lot, targets can be attacked using long/intermediate range missiles. So, even if a country fails to gain air-superiority, it can still rain down terror in the form of missiles and drones strikes.

 

The use of drones and remotely-guided weapons can really tilt the balance. If the Moskva can be taken out by missiles, so can aircraft carriers. Just like how WWII saw the end of the dominance of Battleships as the powerhouse of naval warfare, the current state of technology could spell the end of aircraft carriers. The same can be said of tanks as the main offensive platform of land-based forces.

 

While I hope that the situation does not escalate any further, the conflict has revealed how technology has changed the playing field.

 

After all, how many aircraft carriers can the US afford to lose in war? The cost of the missile launched is in terms of thousands of USD, while each Ford-class carrier has a price-tag in the billions (not to mention the body-bags that would also have to be accounted for). And the US is the only world power with a fleet of many aircraft carriers, most others have only 1 carrier. Imagine the impact on morale, when a country loses its one and only carrier!

 

War is ugly, and brings out the worst in man. But war also tends to bring new technology. They may have their roots in warfare, but may have other benefits in the long run too.

 

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On 5/2/2022 at 5:43 AM, sgmaven said:

On the talk of war, we haven't seen two nations with real state-of-the-art weaponry have a go at each other recently. The wars have mainly been proxy wars (with no full-on engagement between major powers), or one where one side is much stronger than the other.

 

Yet, the conflict in the Ukraine has taught us a thing or two about modern warfare. While air-superiority means a lot, targets can be attacked using long/intermediate range missiles. So, even if a country fails to gain air-superiority, it can still rain down terror in the form of missiles and drones strikes.

 

The use of drones and remotely-guided weapons can really tilt the balance. If the Moskva can be taken out by missiles, so can aircraft carriers. Just like how WWII saw the end of the dominance of Battleships as the powerhouse of naval warfare, the current state of technology could spell the end of aircraft carriers. The same can be said of tanks as the main offensive platform of land-based forces.

 

While I hope that the situation does not escalate any further, the conflict has revealed how technology has changed the playing field.

 

After all, how many aircraft carriers can the US afford to lose in war? The cost of the missile launched is in terms of thousands of USD, while each Ford-class carrier has a price-tag in the billions (not to mention the body-bags that would also have to be accounted for). And the US is the only world power with a fleet of many aircraft carriers, most others have only 1 carrier. Imagine the impact on morale, when a country loses its one and only carrier!

 

War is ugly, and brings out the worst in man. But war also tends to bring new technology. They may have their roots in warfare, but may have other benefits in the long run too.

 

 

There might be a simple answer to why nations with state-of-the-art weaponry don't go at each other:  they would mutually destroy each other.

 

I also recognize that missiles are the most dreaded weapons today. They don't need to be piloted by humans, they can be fired very remotely, they are difficult to defend from,  especially the hypersonic ones,  and their cost is moderate for the destruction they can cause.

 

But aircraft carriers have still their place in combat today.  They are a "home away from home".  A Ford-class carrier is a 13 billion monster that has many capabilities, and its defenses are constantly improved:

 

https://navalpost.com/the-multilayer-ship-defense-of-gerald-r-ford/

 

The Last-Line of Ship Defense

The Navy‘s CIWS, another weapon that has seen significant modifications in recent years, was tested in the combat qualifications. Historically, the CIWS system, which fires hundreds of small metal bullets per minute at incoming threats like enemy drones, missiles, or helicopters, was primarily used as a counter-air weapon. However, the Navy has been developing a “1b” CIWS model to track and destroy incoming surface threats such as swarming small boats or even some approaching enemy missiles for six years. The modifications significantly increased the ship’s defensive mission envelope, allowing it to defend against newer types of attacks. CIWS is a last-line of defense, which means it is expected to be deployed only when other longer-range aspects of a ship’s layered systems have failed. 

On April 16, 2021, sailors on board the aircraft carrier USS Gerald R. Ford (CVN 78) completed Combat Systems Ship’s Qualification Trials (CSSQT), a critical step in validating the ship’s ability to defend itself and its crew. The trials, which began in February, were divided into five parts. The completion of the final phase, 2C, and the CSSQT as a whole is the result of years of planning, training, innovation, and thousands of work hours put in by the ship’s current and prior crews. Additionally, the CVN 78 Ship Self Defense System ICS has a dual-band radar (DBR), a cooperative engagement capability (CEC), a Ship Self Defense System; an evolved Sea Sparrow missile (ESSM), and a rolling airframe missile.

DBR scanned for, located, tracked the target, and then illuminated it with radar to assist the ESSM with missile guidance. The CEC analyzed the Ship Self Defense System data, which subsequently transmitted launch commands to the missile and arranged DBR support for the engagement. The ESSM engaged and defeated the target successfully in the final stage. Thus, while carriers are frequently covered by destroyers and other warships traveling as part of a carrier strike group, they are increasingly equipped as platforms capable of severe warfare on the open ocean using advanced technologies.

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On 5/1/2022 at 2:27 AM, sgmaven said:

 

Frankly, a full-on assault on Taiwan by China is far more complicated than Russia's invasion of the Ukraine. The primary reason being that the border between Russia and the Ukraine is mostly flat land, easy to push your tanks and infantry through. An assault on Taiwan, would mean engaging in an amphibious landing with a scale never seen before in history (a few fold the size o

 

Hm, China could close shipping lines to Taiwan, destroy airports etc. 

 

It is the medieval strategy of surounding the walls of a city and just look out how long they can sustain. 

 

China has been increasing maritime forces and building those artificial islands. 

 

...

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On 5/1/2022 at 11:26 PM, InBangkok said:

Naive, certainly, for it shows how little you know about the facts of Asian history, particularly that of China and Korea. There is no similarity to the situations that Taiwan and South Korea face. There are American forces in South Korea for the simple reason that the Americans and the United Nations were involved in a horrible three-year war on the peninsula which almost involved the Chinese. There is still no peace treaty between the North and South.

 

At the start of that war Kim Il Sung had come very close to taking over the entire peninsula. That so horrified the Americans that they and UN forces escaped and the relanded in the peninsula at Incheon with a view to continuing the fight and restoring the repressive rule of their dreadful puppet Syngman Rhee in the South.

 

With no peace treaty in place - even today, America decided it had no choice but keep forces in the South to ensure the North did not again try to invade. Since then there has been a very close relationship between the two countries. South Korean forces have fought alongside Americans in every major military conflict from Vietnam to Iraq. Further south there has never been a war between Taiwan and China even during the Cold War, and never been any direct US involvement other than supplying Taiwan with arms.

 

In today's realpolitik, with China as the world's second largest economic power with the world's largest and extremely well equipped military, the thought that the US would even establish a military base in Taiwan is laughable. It will not happen. As others have noted, if there was an invasion, it would certainly end in a bloodbath. But there can be no doubt in such an event that troops from the mainland would obey their orders and China would quickly win.

 

Against that, surely no Chinese government has any interest in flattening Taipei and other cities. Hence my belief that despite the rhetoric, Beijing will eventually return to a softly-softly approach - always provided there is no attempt by Taiwan to proclaim independence,

 

If I am naive, I am not the only one here.

 

You are as naive or even more so.  You think that you KNOW a thing!   You are as ignorant as I am,  except that I know that I don't know,  ha ha.   

 

You scan the Internet in search of something you can post here for a one-upmanship, finding and posting information that anybody can access and read as well as you do.  So you become an "expert" from a 30 minute Internet scanning.  The TRUE information about international politics is not in the public domain.  The same as history is not an experimentally based science. 

 

So your "knowledge" of WHY America keeps military forces in other countries can be questionable.  America is keeping 35,000 military in Germany for reasons that are different from their presence in S. Korea.  I don't know exactly the full reasons for both presences, and neither do you.

 

And the FACT of your knowledge of the facts of Asian history, particularly of China and Korea,  is simply that you might have read the book before I did. 

 

None of us is an expert of military science.  We are not soldiers or higher ranking specialists in the art of war.  My profession is (was) engineering and technology,  your profession is music.   So, enjoy your live music. 

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On 5/2/2022 at 10:11 PM, singalion said:

 

Hm, China could close shipping lines to Taiwan, destroy airports etc. 

 

It is the medieval strategy of surounding the walls of a city and just look out how long they can sustain. 

 

China has been increasing maritime forces and building those artificial islands. 

 

...

It is actually easier for the US and its allies to seal of the shipping lines of China, considering the fact that they are strategically positioned at the various choke points for Chinese shipping to exit into the Pacific.

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Overall for Taiwan only a serious, one country two systems approach will work. 

 

But China has destroyed a lot of credibility in their HK approach. 

 

Who could guarantee that same wouldn't happen again?

 

 

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On 5/2/2022 at 9:11 AM, singalion said:

 

Hm, China could close shipping lines to Taiwan, destroy airports etc. 

 

It is the medieval strategy of surounding the walls of a city and just look out how long they can sustain. 

 

China has been increasing maritime forces and building those artificial islands. 

 

...

 

Hmmm...  ships can be sunk.   And China's artificial islands...  can they survive some bombing?  are they perched on solid rock?

 

The US is already challenging Chinas pretention of sovereignty over the Sea of China.  It's name is just a name, it does not mean that it belongs to China.  And the Taiwan Strait can be considered international waters.

 

The Taiwan Strait is International Waters

* The Taiwan Strait is part of the South China Sea, and China has sometimes claimed the area as its territorial waters. However, the United States has consistently said that it considers the waterway to be international waters rather than Chinese territory.Jan 1, 2022 

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On 5/2/2022 at 10:22 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

The US is already challenging Chinas pretention of sovereignty over the Sea of China.  It's name is just a name, it does not mean that it belongs to China.  And the Taiwan Strait can be considered international waters.

 

Why do you hate China so  much?  Are you suggesting that America has every right to nuke China and also kill the last remaining Panda on earth?

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On 5/2/2022 at 10:22 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

Hmmm...  ships can be sunk.   And China's artificial islands...  can they survive some bombing?  are they perched on solid rock?

 

The US is already challenging Chinas pretention of sovereignty over the Sea of China.  It's name is just a name, it does not mean that it belongs to China.  And the Taiwan Strait can be considered international waters.

 

The Taiwan Strait is International Waters

* The Taiwan Strait is part of the South China Sea, and China has sometimes claimed the area as its territorial waters. However, the United States has consistently said that it considers the waterway to be international waters rather than Chinese territory.Jan 1, 2022 

 

The "navigations at sea"  seems more symbolic to me than being a deterrence. 

 

More problematic is the real lack of action by the Philippines, Vietnam and Indonesia in the South China sea. 

 

These countries are all scared to suffer same fate as Australia. 

And Duterte got too corrupt at the national level compared to his term at Davao. 

 

If these countries don't challenge the invasion by China on stricter terms they won't preserve the sovereignity over these parts. 

 

 

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On 5/2/2022 at 10:49 PM, Why? said:

Why do you hate China so  much?  Are you suggesting that America has every right to nuke China and also kill the last remaining Panda on earth?

 

The pandas will die by Chinas inaction to speed up measures against climate change which causes the Pandas preferred bamboo to die off...

 

It doesn't need any nukes...

 

Hopefully Xi will read in Mao's memoires what CCP propaganda song he can then play to distract the Chinese people from knowing the real source of the death of the pandas... 

 

 

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On 5/2/2022 at 9:49 AM, Why? said:

Why do you hate China so  much?  Are you suggesting that America has every right to nuke China and also kill the last remaining Panda on earth?

 

China has all the right to be a pacific country that doesn't make trouble to its neighbors nor keep alliances with evil regimes. 

 

China lost the opportunity to show some redeeming qualities by being solidary with the West in condemning (or at least dissuading) the criminal actions of Putin.  Now it is only one one step away from becoming a criminal partner with Russia if it sends weapons or other stuff to support Putin.

 

Pandas exist outside China, and should be raised and multiplied in zoos.  Or at least their DNA can be preserved to bring them to life later on, like they did with dinosaurs in Jurassic Park.

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On 5/2/2022 at 9:59 AM, singalion said:

 

The "navigations at sea"  seems more symbolic to me than being a deterrence. 

 

More problematic is the real lack of action by the Philippines, Vietnam and Indonesia in the South China sea. 

 

These countries are all scared to suffer same fate as Australia. 

And Duterte got too corrupt at the national level compared to his term at Davao. 

 

If these countries don't challenge the invasion by China on stricter terms they won't preserve the sovereignity over these parts. 

 

 

 

What is this "fate of Australia".   Trade restrictions from China?  Here the biggest loser is China, which will suffer a serious restriction in its availability of kangaroos. 

 

And Australia, instead of having to pay money to China for its goods,  can now spend more freely developing with help from the US,  the leader in submarine technology,  the nuclear submarines it needs to help sink the Chinese ships.

 

One day, Australia may be able to parade along the strait of Taiwan half a dozen of its nuclear submarines equipped with launchers of hypersonic ballistic nuclear missiles that can fly into the mainland.

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On 5/3/2022 at 1:45 AM, Steve5380 said:

Pandas exist outside China, and should be raised and multiplied in zoos.  Or at least their DNA can be preserved to bring them to life later on, like they did with dinosaurs in Jurassic Park.

Don't you know that any pandas that are in zoos outside China are actually "on loan" from China, and they reserve all rights to the animals and their potential offspring?

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On 5/3/2022 at 2:05 AM, Steve5380 said:

What is this "fate of Australia".   Trade restrictions from China?  Here the biggest loser is China, which will suffer a serious restriction in its availability of kangaroos. 

 

And Australia, instead of having to pay money to China for its goods,  can now spend more freely developing with help from the US,  the leader in submarine technology,  the nuclear submarines it needs to help sink the Chinese ships.

 

One day, Australia may be able to parade along the strait of Taiwan half a dozen of its nuclear submarines equipped with launchers of hypersonic ballistic nuclear missiles that can fly into the mainland.

Honestly, do you really think that Australia is better off with the trade sanctions imposed on them by China? They have lost billions in exports, due to it. As for China, don't forget it is still the No.2 economy in the world in terms of size. What it doesn't get from Australia, it can probably get from Africa, Asia or Latin America.

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On 5/2/2022 at 1:56 PM, sgmaven said:

Don't you know that any pandas that are in zoos outside China are actually "on loan" from China, and they reserve all rights to the animals and their potential offspring?

 

I didn't know that!  I thought that the only legal owner of complete species is God.   But I read about one exception, that is Mexico.  It owns two giant pandas.

 

Given that China is one of the most shameful stealers of intellectual, industrial, technological property,  it should be fine if zoos around the world harvest the reproductive material of their pandas on loan, and cooperatively start a program of artificial gestation of these animals.  And how about cloning?  It is expensive, but many animals are cloned.

 

 

On 5/2/2022 at 1:59 PM, sgmaven said:

Honestly, do you really think that Australia is better off with the trade sanctions imposed on them by China? They have lost billions in exports, due to it. As for China, don't forget it is still the No.2 economy in the world in terms of size. What it doesn't get from Australia, it can probably get from Africa, Asia or Latin America.

 

Even the No.1 economy in the world is only a fraction ( one fourth ) of world's economy.  The export of food products from Australia to China are surely very welcomed elsewhere, given the food shortage caused by the Ukraine war.

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On 5/2/2022 at 9:13 PM, Steve5380 said:

If I am naive, I am not the only one here.

 

You are as naive or even more so.  You think that you KNOW a thing!   You are as ignorant as I am,  except that I know that I don't know,  ha ha.   

 

You scan the Internet in search of something you can post here for a one-upmanship, finding and posting information that anybody can access and read as well as you do.  So you become an "expert" from a 30 minute Internet scanning.  The TRUE information about international politics is not in the public domain.  The same as history is not an experimentally based science. 

 

So your "knowledge" of WHY America keeps military forces in other countries can be questionable.  America is keeping 35,000 military in Germany for reasons that are different from their presence in S. Korea.  I don't know exactly the full reasons for both presences, and neither do you.

 

And the FACT of your knowledge of the facts of Asian history, particularly of China and Korea,  is simply that you might have read the book before I did. 

 

None of us is an expert of military science.  We are not soldiers or higher ranking specialists in the art of war.  My profession is (was) engineering and technology,  your profession is music.   So, enjoy your live music. 

I wonder how long you will be permitted to continue your made-up fantasies. We know that most of your knowledge about Asia comes from wikipedia. Mine come from having lived in Asia for more than 40 years working for three major international companies. During that time, I made well over 60 working visits both to Seoul and Taipei meeting all manner of officials. I was also for 5 years the Secretary General of a pan-Asian Federation which required additional visits for separate meetings in the capitals of most Asian countries each quarter. 

 

You are correct when you write that the TRUE information about international politics is not in the public domain. It is certainly not true of people who spend their lives living in Houston, Texas and have rarely visited Asia other than to spend time in gay saunas and have little interest in anything else. My first-hand information about the region, its history and its politics is massively greater than the nuggets you pick up on the internet. So, please in future stick to facts and not your usual childish fantasies.

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On 5/3/2022 at 12:45 AM, Steve5380 said:

Pandas exist outside China, and should be raised and multiplied in zoos.

Once again you show your total ignorance of something Asian. Pandas exist outside China only because China leases pandas to countries as a gesture of goodwill. The operative word is "leases" for all have to be paid for and then eventually to be returned to China.

 

Breeding pandas in captivity is enormously difficult and hugely expensive. They exist only in China for a reason.  I have been to Chengdu in Sichuan Province and spent an amazing morning at the Panda Reserve outside the city.. We saw almost 40 pandas including the rare brown panda - and the huge amount of bamboo they consume each day. The breeding programme is intended to raise pandas for eventual release back into the wild forests with their plentiful supply of bamboo. But so far the success has been extremely limited. The existing wild pandas have marked out their own territories and the generally weaker animals from the reserve cannot fight them sugccessfully as they seek to mark out territory of their own. That pandas should be confined to zoos is an horrific thought.

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On 5/3/2022 at 3:42 AM, Steve5380 said:

I didn't know that!  I thought that the only legal owner of complete species is God.   But I read about one exception, that is Mexico.  It owns two giant pandas.

Well, that is the ongoing arrangement for pandas in zoos outside China. Whether you think any legal owner should exist or should be the almighty, that is the standing arrangement. Yes, the Méxican pandas are an acception, but do note that both those female pandas are approaching the end of their lifespans (in fact, they have outlived the usual lifespan of pandas in captivity).

 

On 5/3/2022 at 3:42 AM, Steve5380 said:

Even the No.1 economy in the world is only a fraction ( one fourth ) of world's economy.  The export of food products from Australia to China are surely very welcomed elsewhere, given the food shortage caused by the Ukraine war.

If you thought that the Australian economy was all about food, then you are very much mistaken.

 

image.thumb.png.b4880883b1fb650c11e1f2742128377e.png

 

Meat and other foodstuff only account for less than 10% of their exports.

Edited by sgmaven

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