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Taiwan, one of the unresolved issues in East Asia...


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Guest Self serving
On 8/5/2022 at 12:48 PM, singalion said:

 

You could also post this in the US thread.

 

The topic of homeless people in the US has nothing to do with the Taiwan topic.

 

Please post such issues inside the US thread instead of derailing the topic here.

 

 


Yes it does. It shows that Nancy Pelosi instead of fixing homelessness issue in her own district went half way around the world to Taiwan to cook up a geo-political firestorm with China. She can appease the situation by inviting China property developers to solve the homelessness issue in her district. 

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China's recent military drills encircling Taiwan's sea have paralyzed Taiwan's military power.
It is comparable to Taiwan being seized while America stood by and did nothing out of guilt.

 

We are grateful to Pelosi for providing a solid platform for China to "enter" Taiwan under notice. America game in this region is OVER!

 

I am going to sleep soundly with smile on my face.

 

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Posted (edited)
On 8/5/2022 at 6:01 PM, Why? said:

China's recent military drills encircling Taiwan's sea have paralyzed Taiwan's military power.
It is comparable to Taiwan being seized while America stood by and did nothing out of guilt.

 

We are grateful to Pelosi for providing a solid platform for China to "enter" Taiwan under notice. America game in this region is OVER!

 

I am going to sleep soundly with smile on my face.

 

 

Your excessive exaggerations really make people laugh on your posts.

 

Where did China enter Taiwan.... the 50m away islands 金門縣 near to Xiamen province is still part of Taiwan...

 

Taiwan paralysed? where? Only because 3 flights from Scoot and 1 from SQ were cancelled?

 

The issue with Japan on the intrusion into Japan's economic zone will be more damaging to China.

 

Edited by singalion
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Knowing that Taiwan is now in good hands once Pelosi has left allowed me to sleep soundly and have beautiful dreams last night.  China has largely addressed the Taiwan issue without the need for additional international intervention.
Zelenskky is presently on the phone with President Xi to discuss how China might assist Ukraine in reestablishing peace after being used as a pawn by the West.

 

I am very pleased with the current situation. 

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On 8/5/2022 at 8:21 PM, Why? said:

 

I am very pleased with the current situation. 

 

 

 I am so glad for you that you are pleased with the current situation.  :) 

 

You being pleased or upset  has no cosmic repercussion. 

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On 8/6/2022 at 10:30 AM, Steve5380 said:

You being pleased or upset  has no cosmic repercussion. 

Pelosi has done a better job with that consequences, and I am delighted with the end result that made America's balls disappear completely. Even as I write this, I am still feeling quite happy and could use a dance.

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On 8/5/2022 at 10:03 PM, Why? said:

Pelosi has done a better job with that consequences, and I am delighted with the end result that made America's balls disappear completely. Even as I write this, I am still feeling quite happy and could use a dance.

 

I am pleased that the action by Pelosi has shown to the world without any doubt the aggressive nature of the PRC regime, and how primitively they act like a spoiled brat.   Now, every country close to the PRC or far away will increase their defense budget to make it harder for the PRC to attack them.

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Guest U must be Crazzzzzy@@
On 8/6/2022 at 8:23 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

I am pleased that the action by Pelosi has shown to the world without any doubt the aggressive nature of the PRC regime, and how primitively they act like a spoiled brat.

It's untrue. An extremely stubborn elderly woman from America defied numerous warnings to prod a peaceful hornet's nest. Now, everyone is being stung while the stupid woman ran away.  Do you blame the hornet still?

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Posted (edited)

The hornets were a reminder that the Taiwan issue is unresolved...

 

Strangely, the PRC doesn't use peaceful means to resolve the issue. What happened to their usual rhetoric and propagation on peaceful means and talks??? Were it empty phrases?

 

 

Edited by singalion
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Guest Pipagrip
On 8/6/2022 at 11:02 PM, Guest U must be Crazzzzzy@@ said:

It's untrue. An extremely stubborn elderly woman from America defied numerous warnings to prod a peaceful hornet's nest. Now, everyone is being stung while the stupid woman ran away.  Do you blame the hornet still?


Nancy Pelosi is retiring at the end of the year. This trip to Taiwan is merely her attempt to write herself into the history books and exit with a bang at the expense of regional peace and stability.

 

Xi is up for re-election this year and he has to show himself to be the leader who will bring glory to China and legitimatise his unprecedented third term in office. The Taiwan issue is just what he needs to convince his people he has the courage to unify China. 

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If the DPP wins the next election, Xi Jing Ping has my full support in his plans to reunify Taiwan.
The  justification is that it can do so militarily, it is legal to do so, America and the rest of the world won't interfere, sanctioning China is difficult for all of its major trading partners, Russia and North Korea will support it with their major nuclear weapons, and only then will Taiwan return to China wonderland. Peace restored, like an uncomfortable bone finally extracted from  everyone's throat in this region of the world.   Just by thinking about it, brought tremendous fresh air and joy into this very difficult world long polluted by America.

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On 8/7/2022 at 8:26 AM, Why? said:

If the DPP wins the next election, Xi Jing Ping has my full support in his plans to reunify Taiwan.
The  justification is that it can do so militarily, it is legal to do so, America and the rest of the world won't interfere, sanctioning China is difficult for all of its major trading partners, Russia and North Korea will support it with their major nuclear weapons, and only then will Taiwan return to China wonderland. Peace restored, like an uncomfortable bone finally extracted from  everyone's throat in this region of the world.   Just by thinking about it, brought tremendous fresh air and joy into this very difficult world long polluted by America.

 

Thanks for making my day start with a huge laughter...

 

I assume most readers here think you are polluting this forum with your infantile posts...

 

 

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Guest Tired of Peaceful means
On 8/6/2022 at 11:50 PM, singalion said:

Strangely, the PRC doesn't use peaceful means to resolve the issue. 

PRC made numerous attempts through peaceful methods but was defeated by America's gangster behavior. Action was required when all peaceful means became exhausted. 

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On 8/6/2022 at 9:17 PM, Guest Tired of Peaceful means said:

PRC made numerous attempts through peaceful methods but was defeated by America's gangster behavior. Action was required when all peaceful means became exhausted. 

 

The actions of America and the PRC towards Taiwan show such an interesting contrast:

 

A high ranking American official makes a peaceful visit to Taiwan and is received with cordiality and appreciation by the Taiwanese people. 

 

The PRC launches a MILITARY THREAT towards Taiwan in the form of an "exercise", raising fears that it might invade the island. In addition it makes other threats, including their withdrawal from actions to reduce global warming like this climate change is not a threat to them.  Childish, provocative, aggressive! 

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Taiwanese should know that the minute they return to a mainland-controlled government, that they will just be considered a backwater, much like it was treated during the Qing dynasty. They also do know that even with the rather racist views of the Imperial Japanese government back then, more was done on the island in terms of developing infrastructure and industry than while under Qing rule.

 

Taiwanese also can see what is happening in Hong Kong. So much for the "one country-two systems" promise for 50 years! It is only just past halfway the 50 years, and the PRC is clamping down on the democratic systems in Hong Kong. Meanwhile, the Chinese government has made a lot of effort to reduce the dominance of Hong Kong's economy in the region, developing other cities in the Pearl River Delta to compete with it.

 

So, why should Taiwan ever trust PRC to treat it equally? No doubt, that they would rather take a gamble with the US, who still may play them out in the end. But as long as there is wine and music, I guess they will still dance?

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On 8/7/2022 at 8:57 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

The actions of America and the PRC towards Taiwan show such an interesting contrast:

 

A high ranking American official makes a peaceful visit to Taiwan and is received with cordiality and appreciation by the Taiwanese people.

 

Peaceful visit with violent intent is not the same as military exercise with peaceful intent. 

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On 8/8/2022 at 10:06 AM, Why? said:

Peaceful visit with violent intent is not the same as military exercise with peaceful intent. 

 

None of us here can know if Nancy's peaceful visit had any violent intent.  You need to ask her, to be sure...

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On 8/7/2022 at 8:16 AM, sgmaven said:

 

So, why should Taiwan ever trust PRC to treat it equally? No doubt, that they would rather take a gamble with the US, who still may play them out in the end. But as long as there is wine and music, I guess they will still dance?

 

 

It has been many years since the Korea war.  Has the US "played out" S. Korea?

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On 8/9/2022 at 1:37 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

It has been many years since the Korea war.  Has the US "played out" S. Korea?

You and I know that there may come another President like Trump, who will throw everything out of the window...

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On 8/8/2022 at 12:47 PM, sgmaven said:

You and I know that there may come another President like Trump, who will throw everything out of the window...

 

Everything is possible.  But there is also a chance that the American electorate is waking up to the kind of presidency Trump created,  and the electorate feels that it is still worth to preserve what they have.

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On 8/9/2022 at 1:34 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

None of us here can know if Nancy's peaceful visit had any violent intent.  You need to ask her, to be sure...

Did you read the most recent news?  There are numerous indications that Pelosi's family has substantial commercial ties to Hong Kong and China. Some of those companies engage in dubious, unlawful, and even exploitative behavior in order to benefit Pelosi's spouse.  The Pelosi family has made billions of dollars in profits in China.
Her visit, along with that of her son, is intended to further illicit commerce under the pretense of "safeguarding" Taiwan democracy. Western media blacks you out, and you learn nothing.  It would be wise for you to spend time researching and understanding for the better good of your knowledge, rather than relying your blind trust of Western media.  Gosh!!

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On 8/8/2022 at 8:54 PM, Why? said:

Did you read the most recent news?  There are numerous indications that Pelosi's family has substantial commercial ties to Hong Kong and China. Some of those companies engage in dubious, unlawful, and even exploitative behavior in order to benefit Pelosi's spouse.  The Pelosi family has made billions of dollars in profits in China.
Her visit, along with that of her son, is intended to further illicit commerce under the pretense of "safeguarding" Taiwan democracy. Western media blacks you out, and you learn nothing.  It would be wise for you to spend time researching and understanding for the better good of your knowledge, rather than relying your blind trust of Western media.  Gosh!!

 

Hmmm...  if Pelosi's family has such interests in China as you mentioned,  wouldn't Nancy be on the side of China?

 

Have you been reading some lunacies?   Can you quote some of these lunacies?

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@Steve5380, don't bother with the troll... He is obviously consuming information from dubious sources. How does the Pelosi family make "billions" from profits in China, and yet their net worth is far from that? And like you said, if she and her family have so much investment in China, surely she would be supportive of the PRC.

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I'm no fan of China, and no fan of US, one is worse than the other, or vice versa, or equally bad, depending on which aspects you look at. Gun control? Transparency? Political Division? Political control? Treatment of minorities / other races.

 

Taiwan is a part of China, can't help the fact anymore. This is recognized by most countries in the world now. But in order to be as independent of China Mainland as possible administratively, Taiwan can still distinguish itself by its political organisation, its openness and the quality of its people over time, while maintaining status quo. China and Taiwan both have strengths, and weaknesses. Ethnic Chinese wise, it's indisputable both have the same roots, but growing culturally different now.

 

Can they stay peacefully different, while staying fuzzily united/independent? Yes. Can either one side force the issue so that it is resolved by military means? Yes. Xi is not subtle about his direction or aims.

 

Edited by PlayersGroup
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On 8/9/2022 at 10:08 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

Hmmm...  if Pelosi's family has such interests in China as you mentioned,  wouldn't Nancy be on the side of China?

 

Have you been reading some lunacies?   Can you quote some of these lunacies?

On 8/9/2022 at 10:18 AM, sgmaven said:

@Steve5380, don't bother with the troll... He is obviously consuming information from dubious sources. How does the Pelosi family make "billions" from profits in China, and yet their net worth is far from that? And like you said, if she and her family have so much investment in China, surely she would be supportive of the PRC.

To educate you two lunatic goons is extremely challenging.   Haven't you guys heard, if your friend is capable of stealing from you,  your enemy steals even more.  If this is new to you, I am speechless.

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On 8/9/2022 at 3:18 AM, Why? said:

To educate you two lunatic goons is extremely challenging.   Haven't you guys heard, if your friend is capable of stealing from you,  your enemy steals even more.  If this is new to you, I am speechless.

 

LOL!   Hopefully you stay speechless  ( or write-less ) for a long time,  because I have never heard that nonsense before. 

 

Friends usually don't steal from each other,  but if they do,  WHAT they steal is very different.   The best friend I ever had, my late bf,  stole something extremely valuable from me.  HE STOLE MY HEART!

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On 8/8/2022 at 10:07 PM, PlayersGroup said:

I'm no fan of China, and no fan of US, one is worse than the other, or vice versa, or equally bad, depending on which aspects you look at. Gun control? Transparency? Political Division? Political control? Treatment of minorities / other races.

 

Taiwan is a part of China, can't help the fact anymore. This is recognized by most countries in the world now. But in order to be as independent of China Mainland as possible administratively, Taiwan can still distinguish itself by its political organisation, its openness and the quality of its people over time, while maintaining status quo. China and Taiwan both have strengths, and weaknesses. Ethnic Chinese wise, it's indisputable both have the same roots, but growing culturally different now.

 

Can they stay peacefully different, while staying fuzzily united/independent? Yes. Can either one side force the issue so that it is resolved by military means? Yes. Xi is not subtle about his direction or aims.

 

 

How can you write things in your posts without first passing them through the rational center of your brain?

 

China and the US are not " one is worse than the other, equally bad ".  China is MUCH WORSE than the US.   The US has problems, like gun control, that are consequence of its wide set of individual rights.  While there are no individual rights in China.  One is a quasi-democracy,  while the other is a quasi-dictatorship, a totalitarian regime.

 

Taiwan is a part of China?  This is not so,  except in the imagination, wishes of Xi.  Any pragmatic person sees that Taiwan is independent, although not recognized so because of countries are pressured by China and afraid of it.

 

In South America,  Argentina and Uruguay are two adjacent countries whose ethnicity, traditions, population, language etc. are identical.  Argentina is the big one,  while Uruguay is like a small child in comparison.  YET... both countries are totally independent, both legally recognized as such by the world community.   Argentina does not claim that Uruguay is part of Argentina,  and the two countries exist in friendship and peace.    Why cannot China and Taiwan live in the same way?

 

And the territorial dealings of the US and China are also different.  In the 19th century the kingdom of Hawaii was overthrown and the US annexed Hawaii.  The reason was the military base the US wanted as protection against Asian aggression.  In 1959 the Hawaii "territory" became a state,  following a referendum of the population who approved it by 93%.  So it was the will of the Hawaiians to become part of the US.  Why cannot the issue between China and Taiwan be resolved by referendum too?

 

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On 8/9/2022 at 8:55 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

How can you write things in your posts without first passing them through the rational center of your brain?

 

China and the US are not " one is worse than the other, equally bad ".  China is MUCH WORSE than the US.   The US has problems, like gun control, that are consequence of its wide set of individual rights.  While there are no individual rights in China.  One is a quasi-democracy,  while the other is a quasi-dictatorship, a totalitarian regime.

 

Taiwan is a part of China?  This is not so,  except in the imagination, wishes of Xi.  Any pragmatic person sees that Taiwan is independent, although not recognized so because of countries are pressured by China and afraid of it.

 

In South America,  Argentina and Uruguay are two adjacent countries whose ethnicity, traditions, population, language etc. are identical.  Argentina is the big one,  while Uruguay is like a small child in comparison.  YET... both countries are totally independent, both legally recognized as such by the world community.   Argentina does not claim that Uruguay is part of Argentina,  and the two countries exist in friendship and peace.    Why cannot China and Taiwan live in the same way?

 

And the territorial dealings of the US and China are also different.  In the 19th century the kingdom of Hawaii was overthrown and the US annexed Hawaii.  The reason was the military base the US wanted as protection against Asian aggression.  In 1959 the Hawaii "territory" became a state,  following a referendum of the population who approved it by 93%.  So it was the will of the Hawaiians to become part of the US.  Why cannot the issue between China and Taiwan be resolved by referendum too?

 

 

I'm fine with your point of view, I don't think your rational centre of your brain is deficient and I'm sorry if you think mine is, but I disagree.

 

Maybe US is better, in some ways, i dont disagree. That is my opinion. The freedom and diversity comes at a cost, the polarization in society and inability to find consensus to act on important issues such as gun deaths for collective good is almost heart wrenching to watch, from am outsider's point of view. 

 

China is no heaven, it's beset with its own issues but it has made tremendous progress, unprecedented some say, lifting a lot of people out of poverty in a very short time. Some things (not everything) have definitely been done right. Totalitarian or not, it has 1.4 billion people living there, about 20% of the world population. Their choice of political organisation so far in their historical development fluctuates but is built on centralised control. It is different from other countries and there are issues with transparency and rights. But I think they too desire right progress and growth. US's model does not provide the one size fits all solution.

 

I've not been to China a lot, maybe about 6 7 times, I enjoyed my time there and people seem at ease, friendly and living regular lives there mostly (I haven't been to the restive areas and I haven't known any dissidents so I don't have the full picture, but, most ordinary citizens just go about their lives, whatever happens with the politics.

 

I didn't draw it out of thin air, political pressure by China or not, when I say most countries recognize there is only one China and Taiwan is a part of it. Most countries do. I love Taiwan much more, but politically, im just stating the current realities. What the rest of us want to see though and hope is peaceful resolution.

 

Edited by PlayersGroup
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On 8/9/2022 at 8:30 PM, Steve5380 said:

   The best friend I ever had, my late bf,  stole something extremely valuable from me.  HE STOLE MY HEART!

That clarifies why you are heartless.
With that, your dream that I would write less and less and enter my winter hibernation period may just come true.
Don't worry; I have free gas from Russia, as well as a variety of other delights and treats, to keep me warm.  I will then leave all global political matters in China's good hands, whether you like it or not.

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On 8/9/2022 at 8:26 AM, Why? said:

 

That clarifies why you are heartless.
 

 

Oh no,  I could not live without a heart.

 

What happened was:  my bf found the key to my heart and took possession of it.  Now that his body is gone,  he stays inside my heart, and my heart of course, inside my body.  This is not a bad deal, since while my heat keeps beating, his presence there has spread into my spirit, and is changing it for the better.

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On 8/9/2022 at 8:55 PM, Steve5380 said:

Taiwan is a part of China?  This is not so,  except in the imagination, wishes of Xi.  Any pragmatic person sees that Taiwan is independent, although not recognized so because of countries are pressured by China and afraid of it.

 

In South America,  Argentina and Uruguay are two adjacent countries whose ethnicity, traditions, population, language etc. are identical.  Argentina is the big one,  while Uruguay is like a small child in comparison.  YET... both countries are totally independent, both legally recognized as such by the world community.   Argentina does not claim that Uruguay is part of Argentina,  and the two countries exist in friendship and peace.    Why cannot China and Taiwan live in the same way?

 

And the territorial dealings of the US and China are also different.  In the 19th century the kingdom of Hawaii was overthrown and the US annexed Hawaii.  The reason was the military base the US wanted as protection against Asian aggression.  In 1959 the Hawaii "territory" became a state,  following a referendum of the population who approved it by 93%.  So it was the will of the Hawaiians to become part of the US.  Why cannot the issue between China and Taiwan be resolved by referendum too?

 

Unfortunately, you have to look at Chinese history for that. Taiwan was a backwater, but no doubt, part of China in the past.

 

Quite different from Argentina and Uruguay. Other than their shared history of Spanish colonialism, the independence movement of Uruguay was quite separate under Artigas.

 

As for Hawaii, don't you think that how the US overthrew the Hawaiian monarchy was underhanded? What right did they have to do that, just because they wanted a military base against Asian expansion? Even if the Hawaiians eventually did vote to join the US as the 50th state, the original acquisition of the islands (a totally independent and sovereign country) has as wrong as what Russia is doing now to the Ukraine, and what the PRC is attempting with Taiwan.

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On 8/9/2022 at 8:25 AM, PlayersGroup said:

 

China is no heaven, it's beset with its own issues but it has made tremendous progress, unprecedented some say, lifting a lot of people out of poverty in a very short time. Some things (not everything) have definitely been done right. Totalitarian or not, it has 1.4 billion people living there, about 20% of the world population. Their choice of political organisation so far in their historical development fluctuates but is built on centralised control. It is different from other countries and there are issues with transparency and rights. But I think they too desire right progress and growth. US's model does not provide the one size fits all solution.

 

 

I understand your point of view. 

 

There is a precedent of the situation in China.  And this is Italy before the end of WWII.

 

Like Hitler imposed himself later in Germany,  Mussolini  "Il Duce" climbed to power in Italy by "nontraditional" ways at the end of WWI.  He established the Reign of Fascism,  an ideology that transferred the individuality of the population to the benefit of The State.  During his regime, great advances were made in infrastructure, organization, economy.  People ADORED him and thought of him as an Italian Emperor who would rebuild the glory of the Roman Empire.   Unfortunately, the wealth and power of the country grew in parallel with the totalitarianism of Mussolini's brutal regime.  Italy joined Germany in WWII and went down with it,  and Mussolini was overthrown by his own citizens and his body was hung upside down for public display.   A more colorful end than Hitler, who simply shot himself dead. 

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On 8/9/2022 at 9:25 PM, PlayersGroup said:

 

US's model does not provide the one size fits all solution.

 

The US lacks a model.  It is a salad dish that appears healthy on the outside but is actually loaded with salt, sugar, and who knows what else.


America's leaders don't care about their citizens or the advancement of anything that is necessary to keep the country a superpower.  It simply cares about getting elected through inciting anti-Chinese sentiment and amplifying white supremacist attitudes among the anti-Asian people, which has indirectly produced unease in the Asian community in America.


There is no effective coordination in the White House because everyone is too preoccupied with digging each other dirty laundry to think about how to solve American problems, nor upgrade its century-old infrastructure, or  foster the aspirations of its citizens.  The same complacency and imagined supremacy plague Europe as well. 


The fact that America is as pious as an Islamic nation while still being as unrestrained and free as a diahorrea adds insult to injury. This so-called democratic nation just cannot stand it when other nations adopt a different model that uplift its own citizen livelihood far superior to those of the West and then America complain that humanity has been hijacked, like what it said about China. 

 

The final nail that sealed American's fate, is their over-reliance on social media for consumption of fake news painting Chinese as bully.  I hope Steve5380 is not one of those...creeps?

 

The above sum up the current state of the west and I don't care what other people anymore because I am going to take a well-deserved break soon.

 

Edited by Why?
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On 8/9/2022 at 9:25 PM, PlayersGroup said:

China is no heaven, it's beset with its own issues but it has made tremendous progress, unprecedented some say, lifting a lot of people out of poverty in a very short time. Some things (not everything) have definitely been done right. Totalitarian or not, it has 1.4 billion people living there, about 20% of the world population. Their choice of political organisation so far in their historical development fluctuates but is built on centralised control. It is different from other countries and there are issues with transparency and rights. But I think they too desire right progress and growth. US's model does not provide the one size fits all solution.

Yes, the government has given many a route to relative prosperity after the economic reforms started by Deng Xiaoping, but at what cost?

 

On 8/9/2022 at 9:25 PM, PlayersGroup said:

I've not been to China a lot, maybe about 6 7 times, I enjoyed my time there and people seem at ease, friendly and living regular lives there mostly (I haven't been to the restive areas and I haven't known any dissidents so I don't have the full picture, but, most ordinary citizens just go about their lives, whatever happens with the politics.

I, on the other hand, have lived and worked in China. I think you only saw what life is like for the majority Han Chinese, who embrace the one culture. Things would be quite different if you were an ethnic minority, struggling to maintain your ethnic and cultural identity. Just look at the Manchus, who ruled China until 1911! Their culture and language is almost totally erased! And we aren't even talking about the Tibetans and Uighurs! Even the minorities in Hunan are being "erased" or treated like "exhibits in a zoo"...

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On 8/9/2022 at 9:57 PM, Why? said:

The above sum up the current state of the west and I don't care what other people anymore because I am going to take a well-deserved break soon.

Please do take that break... I am sure no one would miss you though. You only look at the "corrupt" side of the West, but China is currently far worse!

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On 8/9/2022 at 8:54 AM, sgmaven said:

Unfortunately, you have to look at Chinese history for that. Taiwan was a backwater, but no doubt, part of China in the past.

 

Quite different from Argentina and Uruguay. Other than their shared history of Spanish colonialism, the independence movement of Uruguay was quite separate under Artigas.

 

As for Hawaii, don't you think that how the US overthrew the Hawaiian monarchy was underhanded? What right did they have to do that, just because they wanted a military base against Asian expansion? Even if the Hawaiians eventually did vote to join the US as the 50th state, the original acquisition of the islands (a totally independent and sovereign country) has as wrong as what Russia is doing now to the Ukraine, and what the PRC is attempting with Taiwan.

 

Well... what US did in Hawaii in the 19th century was not as bad as what Russia is doing in Ukraine.  No bombings, no mass killings in Hawaii.  Initially, the US just leased Pearl Harbor for its military base.  Then, a group of nationals did a coup d'etat and replaced the king with his sister the queen, with less power.  And so, step by step, Hawaii sought the annexation by the US, pushed by the locals in addition to the US.  It was not a bloody battle against helpless natives fought by the US to expand its territories.  

 

In my example of Argentina and Uruguay I want to make the point that,  independently of how they got there,  two nations with completely identical population can coexist as two separate countries, independent the one from the other.    Like if we have neighbors who are identical to us,  we still can live in separate homes and not be forced into a communal society.

.

Edited by Steve5380
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On 8/9/2022 at 10:07 PM, Steve5380 said:

the US just leased Pearl Harbor for its military base.   And so, step by step, Hawaii sought the annexation by the US, pushed by the locals in addition to the US.

How "noble" of America. 🤮According to your narration, Hawaii is technically an independent nation.  Annexation is a term "borrowed" and NOT owned.

Edited by Why?
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On 8/9/2022 at 9:14 AM, Why? said:

How "noble" of America. 🤮According to your narration, Hawaii is technically an independent nation.  Annexation is a term "borrowed" and NOT owned.

 

It was very noble of America.   Hawaii was annexed for over half a century,  then it became a STATE by the wish of nearly the totality of its inhabitants.  And as a STATE,  Hawaii, like all other states,  has some independent government as defined in the US Constitution.

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On 8/8/2022 at 9:18 PM, sgmaven said:

@Steve5380, don't bother with the troll... He is obviously consuming information from dubious sources. How does the Pelosi family make "billions" from profits in China, and yet their net worth is far from that? And like you said, if she and her family have so much investment in China, surely she would be supportive of the PRC.

 

Don't worry.  While I like to listen, to read, my ideas are not so easily changed.   I don't mind conversing with anyone, no matter age, gender, race.  I would even converse with a cockroach if it could speak or write.  :) 

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On 8/9/2022 at 10:28 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

It was very noble of America.   Hawaii was annexed for over half a century,  then it became a STATE by the wish of nearly the totality of its inhabitants.  And as a STATE,  Hawaii, like all other states,  has some independent government as defined in the US Constitution.

China ought to have stepped in.  Send a speaker or a warship there at the very least to oppose annexation and defend independence. I believe it is still possible to restore diplomatic ties with Hawaii and go back to the past. Hawaii sounds like a lovely destination to visit and warm up with the locals. 

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On 8/9/2022 at 9:56 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

I understand your point of view. 

 

There is a precedent of the situation in China.  And this is Italy before the end of WWII.

 

Like Hitler imposed himself later in Germany,  Mussolini  "Il Duce" climbed to power in Italy by "nontraditional" ways at the end of WWI.  He established the Reign of Fascism,  an ideology that transferred the individuality of the population to the benefit of The State.  During his regime, great advances were made in infrastructure, organization, economy.  People ADORED him and thought of him as an Italian Emperor who would rebuild the glory of the Roman Empire.   Unfortunately, the wealth and power of the country grew in parallel with the totalitarianism of Mussolini's brutal regime.  Italy joined Germany in WWII and went down with it,  and Mussolini was overthrown by his own citizens and his body was hung upside down for public display.   A more colorful end than Hitler, who simply shot himself dead. 

 

Thank you for sharing this part of history I'm unfamiliar with and I can see some parallels. Comparisons like these is good for thinking and pondering. Though, I would think we need to understand it is just a tool for thinking and not a completely similar situation to draw definite conclusions with.

 

China and Taiwan to me is an unfinished business, a temporary truce that lasted a while because continuing the fight with each other was not what the people on both sides and the wider Chinese diaspora really wanted at the time. I am not from that generation but I get this feeling from those who belong to the older generation. But now? I don't know. My layperson feeling is most Taiwanese do not identify with Mainland China whereas nationalist feelings are very strong on the Mainland and the desire for reunification and "safeguarding territorial integrity" is a key important issue drummed into them since young. But with better education and travel outside of China, some may be willing to see different views. Ultimately, I hope both sides want peace and prosperity more than some nationalist sentiment but that's only my hope, the people there will sort it out themselves, hopefully in a way good for the world but I'm really not sure if it will happen the way i hope for. 

 

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Talking about Taiwan, it really depends who you talk to. The old generation who were part of the KMT retreat to the island have a very different world-view than those who are from the South of Taiwan, near Kaohsiung. For many years, the thinking of the KMT, with their idea of taking back the mainland, was pushed as the only point of view. Meanwhile, all the money for development went to Taipei in the north, whereas the cities like Kaohsiung had little money for infrastructure. Even to this day, you can see the difference in development between these two cities. It almost seems like Taipei and Kaohsiung are decades apart. That is why most people from southern Taiwan are very pro-independence, and that is where the DPP started. Also, most also saw that when the KMT retreated to Taiwan, they looked after themselves much more than the local Taiwanese. Together with the historical lack of attention Taiwan got from the Chinese government (and the Qing court), it is not surprising why many Taiwanese see themselves as rather separate from the mainland. Add to that the difference in political systems, and the gap widens even more.

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On 8/10/2022 at 2:54 AM, sgmaven said:

Talking about Taiwan, it really depends who you talk to. The old generation who were part of the KMT retreat to the island have a very different world-view than those who are from the South of Taiwan, near Kaohsiung. For many years, the thinking of the KMT, with their idea of taking back the mainland, was pushed as the only point of view. Meanwhile, all the money for development went to Taipei in the north, whereas the cities like Kaohsiung had little money for infrastructure. Even to this day, you can see the difference in development between these two cities. It almost seems like Taipei and Kaohsiung are decades apart. That is why most people from southern Taiwan are very pro-independence, and that is where the DPP started. Also, most also saw that when the KMT retreated to Taiwan, they looked after themselves much more than the local Taiwanese. Together with the historical lack of attention Taiwan got from the Chinese government (and the Qing court), it is not surprising why many Taiwanese see themselves as rather separate from the mainland. Add to that the difference in political systems, and the gap widens even more.

 

I think the north south gap has narrowed in terms of opinion. Which is why DPP managed to come to power.

 

China is not helping its own image with the netizens' behaviour of getting offended at any every slightest issue, sometimes those feelings of offense can have very tenuous and bizarre reasons. Also not helping are the fake accounts running information public opinion campaigns, not just in Taiwan but elsewhere too. It is unfortunate, because other than preaching to the converted, mostly older ethnic Chinese, for the rest of the people, it is seen as sowing discord in other societies and ultimately unhappiness with the fake accounts. Before these accounts became a feature on the internet, most were of the view China is becoming prosperous and of the hopeful view they will contribute more to the world. The regard for China was much more positive than it is now now.

 

It was my view of America too. More benign. There is always the heartfelt appeal for unity after every bruising election campaign. But American politics to me has also become worse, and with it the social ills.

 

I try not to get depressed when thinking all these big powers dynamics and how it affects the rest of us, but sometimes I still do.

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On 8/9/2022 at 10:00 PM, sgmaven said:

 

I, on the other hand, have lived and worked in China. I think you only saw what life is like for the majority Han Chinese, who embrace the one culture. Things would be quite different if you were an ethnic minority, struggling to maintain your ethnic and cultural identity. Just look at the Manchus, who ruled China until 1911! Their culture and language is almost totally erased!

 

When cultures meet, they either clash, live alongside, or some level of natural cross culture interaction or integration occurs. Unless, it is deliberate official  systematic erasure. Some people alleged it is happening, but I think part of it is naturally occurring as societies evolve. With a largely homogeneous Han population, the people need more exposure differences before they develop awareness and with awareness come more tolerance and understanding. Need to take a long view.

 

Good inter race relations takes a lot of effort to build and very easy to diminish. US is having difficulty as well. Singapore likewise has its share of race issues to navigate, it's always a work in progress, never ending.

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On 8/10/2022 at 7:40 AM, PlayersGroup said:

I think the north south gap has narrowed in terms of opinion. Which is why DPP managed to come to power.

I think the narrowing of opinion also has to do with the older generation (those who originally fled the mainland with the KMT) gradually dying out.

 

Also, I think a lot of this is also a result of the lifting of martial law, which used to suppress alternative viewpoints. I visited Taiwan as a student in the final days of martial law, and then saw the changes after, including the impact on the people there. Of course, the lifting of martial law by the KMT was partly in response to the rise of the DPP in the south.

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On 8/10/2022 at 8:16 AM, PlayersGroup said:

When cultures meet, they either clash, live alongside, or some level of natural cross culture interaction or integration occurs. Unless, it is deliberate official  systematic erasure. Some people alleged it is happening, but I think part of it is naturally occurring as societies evolve. With a largely homogeneous Han population, the people need more exposure differences before they develop awareness and with awareness come more tolerance and understanding. Need to take a long view.

Having visited Tibet, I can only say that much of the erasure of Tibetan identity is very much a deliberate move by the PRC government. The same can be said for Xinjiang and the Uighurs.

 

Meanwhile, I think it is easy not to think very much of how the overall "Han-centric" thinking affects the psyche of the ethnic minorities all over the country. Remember that the Han people are far more numerous than the ethnic minorities, and hence, easily "dilute" all the customs and beliefs that minorities have. The PRC government increases this by "allowing for the resettlement" of Han Chinese into predominantly non-Han areas.

 

I think many Singaporeans of Chinese descent may not feel as much about this subject, since Chinese are the overwhelming majority in Singapore. However, the government also erased a lot of local Chinese culture when they tried to scrub the use of dialects out of daily lives, such that media programming in dialects were not allowed. I think the government has realised the consequence of this, and has recently started to backpedal on this policy. And when I talk about minority cultures in Singapore, I don't even talk about the Malays and Tamil-speaking Indians, whose rights are better protected. Not sure if any of you know of Jews or Armenians, who don't really have a voice in our society? Even the Northern Indians (before the arrival of the NRIs due to immigration policies) used to have a tough time, since Hindi was not considered a language to be taught in schools.

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The reason why I talk about cultural assimilation and dilution in the context of Taiwan and PRC relations, is that should China take over Taiwan under the guise of the "One Country Two Systems", it is likely repeat what they have done with HK, by subsuming it into the Guandong hinterland. The same could happen with Taiwan, which historically was administered under Fujian province during the Qing Dynasty. Even though the people from Fujian are no doubt, closer culturally to the Taiwanese, the years of communist and nationalistic propaganda amongst the mainlanders will definitely create a huge gap between the two peoples. All China needs to do though, is then to allow free flow of people from Fujian (who outnumber Taiwanese by a factor of about 2) into Taiwan, and you can get the dilution effect. Of course, the factor of 2:1 is not as severe as what is happening in places like Tibet, where droves of Han Chinese from Sichuan are settling, but you get the point...

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