"Before more gheys decide to use legal loophole to adopt a child, think for the innocent child pls!"

[Guest Guest99]

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/eat-drink-man-woman-16/before-more-gheys-decide-use-legal-loophole-adopt-child-think-innocent-child-pls-5955944.html

 

What do we think of this thread? So much hatred and homophobia ... 

[Guest Guest99]

This is just to form an open discussion, to to illicit more hate ... 

[Guest surrogate]

This happened initially in Europe too at start.

 

What is the difference of being bullied for nothing and being bullied for having parents of the same sex?

 

Just ignore and move on.

 

I dare to say that 95% of children grown up in a gay family have better life prospects and more loving parents than 40% of children who grew up in straight families...

 

Who doesn't agree?

 

[Guest guest]

Just accept gay people as they are, and then accord them rights to parenting and adoption, then problem is solved.

 

Gay people are not going to disappear from the earth, just becuase some straight people cannot stand our presence, the problem lies with the straight people,  if we just remove any hindrance for gay people to be treated equally problem is solved.

 

These straights are wishing that we will just go away and disappear, right .

 

No, not gonna happen.

 

Just make it equal for gay people then problem is solved.

 

The problem is that some straight people believe there is this special status they enjoy becos they fuck the traditional way.

 

that is what I think

 

 

[tomcat]

As much as I want to just dismiss it as hate and homophobia, we have to admit that gays are very trend-oriented.

when it was trendy to wear NUM and carry Crumpler bags, many gays did it - even tho they are overpriced.

when it is trendy to be fit, swole and jacked, many gays hit the gym - even pay for expensive memberships and trainers.

when it was trendy to attend Pink Dot, many gays did it. even tho they dont have a single activist bone in their body.

when it is trendy to march in Pride Parade, many gays did it - some even take leave from work, travel overseas to attend.

 

when it was trendy to get married in exotic locations, many gays did it . majority of these union don't even see beyond 3-4 years, by the way.

now if adoption becomes a trend, i'm worried, because judging from history, gays can just follow and do it, just because other gays make it trendy.

only this time, it's not an overpriced singlet, underused membership or even a spouse that you can just chuck one corner.

 

It is an innocent child. 


 

[Guest Tomboy]

1 hour ago, tomcat said:

As much as I want to just dismiss it as hate and homophobia, we have to admit that gays are very trend-oriented.

when it was trendy to wear NUM and carry Crumpler bags, many gays did it - even tho they are overpriced.

when it is trendy to be fit, swole and jacked, many gays hit the gym - even pay for expensive memberships and trainers.

when it was trendy to attend Pink Dot, many gays did it. even tho they dont have a single activist bone in their body.

when it is trendy to march in Pride Parade, many gays did it - some even take leave from work, travel overseas to attend.

 

when it was trendy to get married in exotic locations, many gays did it . majority of these union don't even see beyond 3-4 years, by the way.

now if adoption becomes a trend, i'm worried, because judging from history, gays can just follow and do it, just because other gays make it trendy.

only this time, it's not an overpriced singlet, underused membership or even a spouse that you can just chuck one corner.

 

It is an innocent child. 


 

On shuddup!

 

Heterosexuals follow trends too. It is human and not just gays.

 

Having a child is different from buying an expensive NUM singlet, so stop stretching your logic and pushing it.

 

I am sure gays who want to have children know what they are getting into. It is not a decision taken lightly by gays, only heterosexuals have children because all their friends are doing it as it is so much easier for them to pop one out,  compared to gays.

 

Don’t you over think and over analyse and spoil it for the gays.

[tomcat]

Just now, Guest Tomboy said:

 

 

It is not a decision taken lightly by gays.

as opposed to something like say...marriage? haha.

Im just stating facts and observations.

 

The fact that you can answer means that they actually resonated with you, otherwise you'll answer with "I dont know what you are talking about".

if can't handle facts, then bury your head in the sand. but don't shoot the messenger please.  i find your denial about your own community a bit troubling and selfish. 

 

[Guest LOL]

2 minutes ago, tomcat said:

as opposed to something like say...marriage? haha.

Im just stating facts and observations.

 

The fact that you can answer means that they actually resonated with you, otherwise you'll answer with "I dont know what you are talking about".

if can't handle facts, then bury your head in the sand. but don't shoot the messenger please.  i find your denial about your own community a bit troubling and selfish. 

 

Bet you will be the first one to follow trends like bearing children, if one day gays can do it ourselves without surrogacy.

 

I just realised you could be lesbian, and I can’t even.

[Guest Fact distorter]

12 minutes ago, tomcat said:

as opposed to something like say...marriage? haha.

Im just stating facts and observations.

 

The fact that you can answer means that they actually resonated with you, otherwise you'll answer with "I dont know what you are talking about".

if can't handle facts, then bury your head in the sand. but don't shoot the messenger please.  i find your denial about your own community a bit troubling and selfish. 

 

You are a fact distorter.

 

It is also a trend to own hermes bags. Besides the super rich and those very into fashion, how many gays you know have one just because it is trendy?

 

And do they buy it and chuck it aside three months later or they baby it, handle it with kid gloves? (Pun intended)

 

Don’t try to be too clever, you pompous flaneur with all your sophistry and fluff.

 

*blows raspberry*

[Guest 爷P not 百合]

19 minutes ago, Guest LOL said:

 

I just realised you could be lesbian, and I can’t even.

And sorry i didn’t mean you could be lesbian, but you could be A lesbian.

 

Note the subtle difference?  

[FeelLikeASir]

1 hour ago, tomcat said:

As much as I want to just dismiss it as hate and homophobia, we have to admit that gays are very trend-oriented.

when it was trendy to wear NUM and carry Crumpler bags, many gays did it - even tho they are overpriced.

when it is trendy to be fit, swole and jacked, many gays hit the gym - even pay for expensive memberships and trainers.

when it was trendy to attend Pink Dot, many gays did it. even tho they dont have a single activist bone in their body.

when it is trendy to march in Pride Parade, many gays did it - some even take leave from work, travel overseas to attend.

 

when it was trendy to get married in exotic locations, many gays did it . majority of these union don't even see beyond 3-4 years, by the way.

now if adoption becomes a trend, i'm worried, because judging from history, gays can just follow and do it, just because other gays make it trendy.

only this time, it's not an overpriced singlet, underused membership or even a spouse that you can just chuck one corner.

 

It is an innocent child. 


 

Trend oriented it may be, it still doesn’t dismiss the fact that the child is a legal offspring of one of the male partner. Surely, it could be a bigger issue if neither of the male partner is the legal parent. But like some of the members have mentioned here, kids brought up in environment where there is two fathers could end up being more liberal and open minded rather than adopting a homophobic mindset from young. It really boils down to how the parents decide to raise & educate the kid rather than the official gender of the parents in itself. 

 

Even so, i do hope the gay people do not just decide to adopt any random kid just to make up a family unit to appear “trendy” per se. Esspcially given that the financial commitments for raising a kid these days isn’t exactly as manageable as compared the a few decades back. 

[Guest trend setters]

1 hour ago, tomcat said:

As much as I want to just dismiss it as hate and homophobia, we have to admit that gays are very trend-oriented.

when it was trendy to wear NUM and carry Crumpler bags, many gays did it - even tho they are overpriced.

when it is trendy to be fit, swole and jacked, many gays hit the gym - even pay for expensive memberships and trainers.

when it was trendy to attend Pink Dot, many gays did it. even tho they dont have a single activist bone in their body.

when it is trendy to march in Pride Parade, many gays did it - some even take leave from work, travel overseas to attend.

 

when it was trendy to get married in exotic locations, many gays did it . majority of these union don't even see beyond 3-4 years, by the way.

now if adoption becomes a trend, i'm worried, because judging from history, gays can just follow and do it, just because other gays make it trendy.

only this time, it's not an overpriced singlet, underused membership or even a spouse that you can just chuck one corner.

 

It is an innocent child. 


 

 

Straight guys follow a lot of stupid trends (Pokemon) too and buy overpriced fancy cloothing or travel to Machu Picchu or other trendy destinations. In the opening of W Hotel Bangkok I saw more straight trendy trendsetters than gays with untrendy trendy dogs.

Your generalisations don't lead to anything at all.

 

I don't bother about any Applecrumble and Futch T Shirts, don't even know any sneaker brands and if you ask me what car is that luxury car, wouldn't even bothered if it is a Bentley or Martin Aston.

 

Overall I still think the child will not be an unhappy one (if the parents spend sufficient time). It will have a good education regarding the material background of the parents and why can't they be loving parents?

Most science came out to say that

a) children of same sex couples did not have any psychological problems

b) were stable (but on times bullied) (fat children are bullied too)

c) had good educational records

d) did not turn out as gays themselves.

 

Germany just started a new research into this area as conservative child welfare organisations had doubts on whether same sex couple are suitable as parents.

 

I m very certain many desperate children in Singapore would have been happy to have parents like this child... (and not only because of the material background of both parents).

 

It is not easy to be a parent and any person will thoughtfully need to think about the long term commitment on having children.

Most gays would be more interested in their sexual satisfaction and won't think much of getting kids.

 

 

[lonelyglobe]

Yap, is going to be expensive and didficult decision as it involve long term committment, how many of you here actually think of doing it? And how many of you here actually wish your parent are from the same sex? Apart from the points from the adult, i think it is going to be very challenging for the kids to grow up and start explaining the situation to others, unless sg is ready to have more cases like this, otherwise he might be the one and only here unlike in the west, it is really nothing to scream about.

[Carlofrcentral]

Why think so lowly of gay couples to question their decision making skills and maturity?

 

at least if gays adopt they do it on purpose, whereas for some straight couple, having kids happens by accident.

[Guest Yeah]

2 hours ago, lonelyglobe said:

Yap, is going to be expensive and didficult decision as it involve long term committment, how many of you here actually think of doing it? And how many of you here actually wish your parent are from the same sex? Apart from the points from the adult, i think it is going to be very challenging for the kids to grow up and start explaining the situation to others, unless sg is ready to have more cases like this, otherwise he might be the one and only here unlike in the west, it is really nothing to scream about.

 

I pity the kid who will suffer all the taunts from his peers because of the actions of his parents. It's akin to situations where parents give stupid names to their children where they are taunted leaving them having a scarred childhood or life. I do really hope his parents prepare him well mentally ahead and provide him a strong family support to ride through the initial rough years..  

[Steve5380]

7 hours ago, Guest Tomboy said:

On shuddup!

 

Heterosexuals follow trends too. It is human and not just gays.

 

Having a child is different from buying an expensive NUM singlet, so stop stretching your logic and pushing it.

 

I am sure gays who want to have children know what they are getting into. It is not a decision taken lightly by gays, only heterosexuals have children because all their friends are doing it as it is so much easier for them to pop one out,  compared to gays.

 

Don’t you over think and over analyse and spoil it for the gays.

 

I agree.  It could be even more serious to have children for gays, since they don't come unexpected and naturally.

Some may only "fancy" a child when deciding to adopt one, or find a surrogate, but these methods are costly and lengthy.  Not something that one does lightly.

 

In the straight world, couples don't know what it is to have children until after their first one.  Many are driven by family, parents who want to have grandchildren, or by a society that gives more dignity to couples who are parents. 

[Guest Blank]

Now you gays how much you're hated

 

In case many bitches here think they own the world

[Guest Sam Chen]

12 hours ago, Guest trend setters said:

 

Straight guys follow a lot of stupid trends (Pokemon) too and buy overpriced fancy cloothing or travel to Machu Picchu or other trendy destinations. In the opening of W Hotel Bangkok I saw more straight trendy trendsetters than gays with untrendy trendy dogs.

Your generalisations don't lead to anything at all.

 

I don't bother about any Applecrumble and Futch T Shirts, don't even know any sneaker brands and if you ask me what car is that luxury car, wouldn't even bothered if it is a Bentley or Martin Aston.

 

Overall I still think the child will not be an unhappy one (if the parents spend sufficient time). It will have a good education regarding the material background of the parents and why can't they be loving parents?

Most science came out to say that

a) children of same sex couples did not have any psychological problems

b) were stable (but on times bullied) (fat children are bullied too)

c) had good educational records

d) did not turn out as gays themselves.

 

Germany just started a new research into this area as conservative child welfare organisations had doubts on whether same sex couple are suitable as parents.

 

I m very certain many desperate children in Singapore would have been happy to have parents like this child... (and not only because of the material background of both parents).

 

It is not easy to be a parent and any person will thoughtfully need to think about the long term commitment on having children.

Most gays would be more interested in their sexual satisfaction and won't think much of getting kids.

 

 

I , I , I , I. I don’t care about this, I don’t care about that . Making this issue all about you (and your insecurities) again. Discussion of the issue and you can’t stop talking about yourself. 

“Overall” , “most sciences” , “I m very certain”. Sources please. Proof please. Cringe. 

Mic drop

 

[Steve5380]

37 minutes ago, Guest Sam Chen said:

I , I , I , I. I don’t care about this, I don’t care about that . Making this issue all about you (and your insecurities) again. Discussion of the issue and you can’t stop talking about yourself. 

“Overall” , “most sciences” , “I m very certain”. Sources please. Proof please. Cringe. 

Mic drop

 

 

What is wrong with writing in first person?  You and me we are our own "I" like everyone else.  Where is his insecurity?  

I think  (and don't give me shit over that) that he made much sense in his post.  And what he wrote is not difficult to check against other sources.

 

[kingbitch]

15 hours ago, tomcat said:

As much as I want to just dismiss it as hate and homophobia, we have to admit that gays are very trend-oriented.

when it was trendy to wear NUM and carry Crumpler bags, many gays did it - even tho they are overpriced.

when it is trendy to be fit, swole and jacked, many gays hit the gym - even pay for expensive memberships and trainers.

when it was trendy to attend Pink Dot, many gays did it. even tho they dont have a single activist bone in their body.

when it is trendy to march in Pride Parade, many gays did it - some even take leave from work, travel overseas to attend.

 

when it was trendy to get married in exotic locations, many gays did it . majority of these union don't even see beyond 3-4 years, by the way.

now if adoption becomes a trend, i'm worried, because judging from history, gays can just follow and do it, just because other gays make it trendy.

only this time, it's not an overpriced singlet, underused membership or even a spouse that you can just chuck one corner.

 

It is an innocent child. 


 

 

We gays as a whole aren't that bad. The trend-followers are those visible louder gays in person or on social media. There are lots of guys who mind our own business and pursue our own happiness. 

 

And I doubt this trend-following behaviour extends to major financial decisions like raising a child. Marriage is a major life decision but it is not a major financial decision.

 

We all have our own forms of internalized homophobia, I think you might have this particular one... 

 

 

 

[firefight]

None of us have the right to judge anyone, straight or otherwise, who will like to adopt a child. The laws of the country would have done all the consideration before allowing so.

 

However we are entitled to say what think since this is a forum, as long as it is within the rules of the forums and in a civilised manner. Rather than attacking one another's bad language or logic, why not just lay your stand, and let others say what they want?

[Cube3]

16 hours ago, tomcat said:

As much as I want to just dismiss it as hate and homophobia, we have to admit that gays are very trend-oriented.

when it was trendy to wear NUM and carry Crumpler bags, many gays did it - even tho they are overpriced.

when it is trendy to be fit, swole and jacked, many gays hit the gym - even pay for expensive memberships and trainers.

when it was trendy to attend Pink Dot, many gays did it. even tho they dont have a single activist bone in their body.

when it is trendy to march in Pride Parade, many gays did it - some even take leave from work, travel overseas to attend.

 

when it was trendy to get married in exotic locations, many gays did it . majority of these union don't even see beyond 3-4 years, by the way.

now if adoption becomes a trend, i'm worried, because judging from history, gays can just follow and do it, just because other gays make it trendy.

only this time, it's not an overpriced singlet, underused membership or even a spouse that you can just chuck one corner.

 

It is an innocent child.

 

There are many non-trend-oriented gays. They may not be fashionable and good-looking, but they have hearts that warm up for the weak and vulnerable, with immense capacity for self-sacrifice and caring for others.

 

We cannot police family dynamics (whether gay or straight), but we can help create an environment where families of different make-up e.g. same-sex parents can bring up innocent children in a nurturing, loving way.

 

Don't you also notice that straight, trend-oriented couples buy branded stuff, underuse memberships, get married in exotic locations and chuck innocent children in a corner?

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Cube3

[Guest Ignorance]

I just felt that having a surrogate child is a privilege for any adulthood. Just by being gay, you can't have children? Must it be singlehood to legally accept to have your own surrogate child? The society have come to tolerance to gay community and many or few individuals have made real sacrifices to come this far by being on media to potray the ignorance of society. We all grew old and naturally thinking of having one of our own children. This is life. You will eventually want and desire a phase of Parenthood without the expenses of hurting an opposite sex partner. I think we are moving to the phase of acceptance as long as we know as a group what we have been through and teach the newer generations of love and acceptance of differences.

[LeGrad]

Hi everyone,

I've been reading the comments here and I just wanted to respond/share some of my own thoughts.

Respectfully, we really need to stop with the "Us Gays" and "your version of Gay vs Us version of Gay"  labels. It's really not helpful to us as a community if we perpetually accentuate our differences without wanting to find any ground for commonality. All of us are human, and a number of us do desire to have some semblance of human connections. Even though the idea of family structures is a construct of a hetero-normative patriarchy, many of us find meaning and value in it. All of us rely on some trope that reflects on our imagined life stage, and for some that would mean having kids. These tropes are not trends; they are stories you hold on to because life is messy and chaotic, and you need some semblance of stability in a world that is beyond your control. 
 

Deep down, everyone needs love and connection. Love doesn't necessary mean lust; it also includes filial bonds and an altruistic love to care for another being. 

So, let's not make this issue a class-based problem. Let's re-frame it as a human condition.Let's also celebrate the fact that one of our own has found some way to building a future and family, and hopefully we can find more pathways to carve our own legitimate space in Singapore Society. 

 

We shouldn't need to be exceptional in order for us to be accepted. 

 

 

 

 

[tomcat]

1 hour ago, Cube3 said:

 

Don't you also notice that straight, trend-oriented couples buy branded stuff, underuse memberships, get married in exotic locations and chuck innocent children in a corner?

 

 

 

All true, but dont you also notice that normal things become controversial when it applies to gay men?

I would like to be able to say that the treatment of gay men, gay couples are the same and that we are free to do all the things Straight people are allowed to - but unfortunately, I think you know this is not the case. Which is why this gay adoption thing is a watershed moment, especially in Singapore.

We live under a closer scrutiny than most citizens, that's a fact. 

[LeGrad]

4 minutes ago, tomcat said:

All true, but dont you also notice that normal things become controversial when it applies to gay men?

I would like to be able to say that the treatment of gay men, gay couples are the same and that we are free to do all the things Straight people are allowed to - but unfortunately, I think you know this is not the case. Which is why this gay adoption thing is a watershed moment, especially in Singapore.

We live under a closer scrutiny than most citizens, that's a fact. 

 

This is an astute observation indeed.

Society inflicts symbolic violence on the LGBTQI by categorically denying the privilege of heteronormativity. By denying our capacity to do 'normal' things, we are made the other. 

 

[tomcat]

16 hours ago, FeelLikeASir said:

Trend oriented it may be, it still doesn’t dismiss the fact that the child is a legal offspring of one of the male partner. Surely, it could be a bigger issue if neither of the male partner is the legal parent.

This is the only fail-safe i can think of, that if one of the partners is still the biological father of the child. And in the recent case, this is the only real reason why he was eventually granted custody, because the mother herself is a surrogate who is just fulfilling her paid obligation. In this scenario, the father was still the best option for the child, because 1. he is a biological parent, 2. He actually wants the child to raise. The surrogate mother does not.
 

 

16 hours ago, FeelLikeASir said:

Even so, i do hope the gay people do not just decide to adopt any random kid just to make up a family unit to appear “trendy” per se.

Haha, I don't know. There are a lot of stupid people in the community, obsessed about keeping up appearances, staying relevant, or just following trends. Yes, some can be superflous - but when it comes to things that are high-commitment like marriage and tattoos, it seems some gays still have some trouble making good and sound decisions. 

I do reiterate that unlike a spouse you can divorce or tattoo you can laser off, you can't un-adopt a child.
As always, I stand by everything I have shared previously. 

[tomcat]

11 minutes ago, NtuLad15 said:

 

This is an astute observation indeed.
 

Thank you, that is all I do in here - often just sharing observations and facts.

 

But seeing that most of the time  they can become inflammatory or triggering for some, means that there is still a deep rejection of truth within our community.

 

We are still not able to face who we are and what we do, and i do speak collectively, for those gay men who are out and proud and those who are closeted.

I mean, there are much darker things we have barely even scratched the surface of, these are just gay men's proclivity to follow trends. i mean there are other damaging aspects of life as a gay person/couple like promiscuity, infidelity, casual drug use etc etc. Even the ones who partake hide and cower from what they do, or find convoluted ways to rationalise.

Just own up to your shit, and if it is not good, try to do better. if cannot, then at least try to understand why you are doing it in the first place. 

First step to changing anything is ACCEPTANCE. So the longer one spends fighting the truth and accepting it, the longer it takes for them to come out the other side with a new persepctive or resolve.

 

I don't think it's rocket science, TBH.

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by tomcat

[Wafflecorn]

I kinda agree on the whole trend thing amongst our community. I do also notice that there are many of us who are much easily swayed by mainstream media and how some of us can be damn fickle minded. (Ever went on a date with someone who can't decide what to eat for a good 1hr and dismissed all of your suggestions?)

 

But when it comes to adopting a child or even surrogacy , I don't think it is just as simple as a trend, to be very honest. Having to known people who adopt or having relatives gone thru surrogacy, the whole process of each is a huge pain the ass.  There are so many paperwork and red tapes to deal with. Medical History, Family History, Mental Health assessment , Financial assessment are the most basic things one has to go thru. And it is long and expensive process that could take years before you could bring the kid home. And if the couple is deemed unfit, their application would be rejected along the way.

 

Kids are adorable and does stupid things at time, but being responsible for an annoying bratty kid or having to wake up at 3 in the morning to feed and have the kid barf all over you, is a huge pain in the ass.  Don't forget that parents are also responsible for feeding and educating that irritating piece of shit for at least, a minimal of 21 years. I honestly don't think any of us would have the patience and maturity for that. Just look your friends who are having kids right now.

 

So, I don't think people will just adopt out of being "Trendy" or trying to simulate being Cam and Mitchell from the modern family. The whole idea of parenthood  and responsibilities would really had put us off already.

 

Besides, if someone love kid but don't want to be responsible for a child, they would prefer to enjoy playing and goofing around with other people's child and then return them to their parents after they get annoyingly bratty.

 

Just my 2 cents. LOLOLOL.

[Guest Lacey]

TOMBOY: your internalized homophobia is not rocket science too. Stop hiding and cowering. Deal with it!

[tomcat]

1 hour ago, Wafflecorn said:

 

Besides, if someone love kid but don't want to be responsible for a child, they would prefer to enjoy playing and goofing around with other people's child and then return them to their parents after they get annoyingly bratty.

 

Same,  I am better as an uncle to my niece and nephew or as a godparent.
But I think it is also a two-way relationship that grows.

Being a gay uncle with my long term partner who have been with them since birth is beneficial

because that's a real and honest way of showing the next generation how to be more inclusive.

No politics, no forced activism, just having us around as they grow up is a natural thing,

so they see us first as human beings and family, instead of criminals or sexual deviants.

 

I am grateful for my family for accepting me and my partner, and I think if there are opportunities for gay men to be included into families,

they should take it up as it will go a long way into reframing gay men and women into modern society.

There is that element of playing with cute kids, but in the larger picture we are also introducing them to diversity,

and plurality in which Love is lived and defined. That is a good start for them as they grow up in Life.
By being good live examples of what gay people, families, parents are.

If there comes a day where a child in my nephew's class has two moms or two dads, I hope my nephew will be the first person

who befriends and champions him/her, and proudly say he has two uncles  that love him very much too.

 

 

 

 

[Guest Worry wort]

4 hours ago, tomcat said:

Same,  I am better as an uncle to my niece and nephew or as a godparent.
But I think it is also a two-way relationship that grows.

Being a gay uncle with my long term partner who have been with them since birth is beneficial

because that's a real and honest way of showing the next generation how to be more inclusive.

No politics, no forced activism, just having us around as they grow up is a natural thing,

so they see us first as human beings and family, instead of criminals or sexual deviants.

 

I am grateful for my family for accepting me and my partner, and I think if there are opportunities for gay men to be included into families,

they should take it up as it will go a long way into reframing gay men and women into modern society.

There is that element of playing with cute kids, but in the larger picture we are also introducing them to diversity,

and plurality in which Love is lived and defined. That is a good start for them as they grow up in Life.
By being good live examples of what gay people, families, parents are.

If there comes a day where a child in my nephew's class has two moms or two dads, I hope my nephew will be the first person

who befriends and champions him/her, and proudly say he has two uncles  that love him very much too.

 

 

 

 

 

You do you. There are many grown-up gays who aren’t hedonistic, carnal, frivolous, feeble-minded, irresponsible, into branded staffs and trends like you. Those are the ones who can afford to have children.

 

You might have spent your money on branded goods thus cannot afford surrogacy even if you want to. We understand. 

 

But don’t be sour grapes and spoil it for others who can.

 

Don’t you worry and think too much for the community, in case you become preachy, didactic and sanctimonious like moral police pharisees that we have enough number of in Singapore.

[kingbitch]

8 hours ago, tomcat said:

I mean, there are much darker things we have barely even scratched the surface of, these are just gay men's proclivity to follow trends. i mean there are other damaging aspects of life as a gay person/couple like promiscuity, infidelity, casual drug use etc etc. Even the ones who partake hide and cower from what they do, or find convoluted ways to rationalise.

Just own up to your shit, and if it is not good, try to do better. if cannot, then at least try to understand why you are doing it in the first place. 
 

 

 

Your internalized homophobia is more serious than I thought. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt - that you are unfortunately surrounded by the worst gays imaginable all your life. And that you were one of them yourself.

 

Doesn't make your self-hate reasonable, but at least understandable. 

 

 

[Cube3]

8 hours ago, tomcat said:

All true, but dont you also notice that normal things become controversial when it applies to gay men?

I would like to be able to say that the treatment of gay men, gay couples are the same and that we are free to do all the things Straight people are allowed to - but unfortunately, I think you know this is not the case. Which is why this gay adoption thing is a watershed moment, especially in Singapore.

We live under a closer scrutiny than most citizens, that's a fact. 

 

Yes, and that closer scrutiny is part of the hate and homophobia you mentioned. It should be something we stand up to, not give in to, no?

[Wafflecorn]

10 hours ago, tomcat said:

Same,  I am better as an uncle to my niece and nephew or as a godparent.
But I think it is also a two-way relationship that grows.

Being a gay uncle with my long term partner who have been with them since birth is beneficial

because that's a real and honest way of showing the next generation how to be more inclusive.

No politics, no forced activism, just having us around as they grow up is a natural thing,

so they see us first as human beings and family, instead of criminals or sexual deviants.

 

I am grateful for my family for accepting me and my partner, and I think if there are opportunities for gay men to be included into families,

they should take it up as it will go a long way into reframing gay men and women into modern society.

There is that element of playing with cute kids, but in the larger picture we are also introducing them to diversity,

and plurality in which Love is lived and defined. That is a good start for them as they grow up in Life.
By being good live examples of what gay people, families, parents are.

If there comes a day where a child in my nephew's class has two moms or two dads, I hope my nephew will be the first person

who befriends and champions him/her, and proudly say he has two uncles  that love him very much too.

Aww, that is kinda sweet to know and good to know that you have such sentiments.

 

Do what you are comfortable with, at the end of the day, our life is for us to lead, not for others to dictate what is right or wrong. I think being in the LGBTQ+ community has taught me to celebrate whatever small victories there is, no mater how small or weird, as long as it contributes towards a more accepting and inclusive society. And I wholeheartedly agree with your stance on showing the kiddies on what love means and being LGBTQ+ is totally okay! Besides, these kiddies are the owners of what has yet to come and they will be the ones who will shape the future.

[Steve5380]

I am following the conversation here and I can imagine the particular cases where "us" and "they" are different in some ways.

But in general,  I find that gay and straight we have no significant differences  except the cultural ones,

and the responsible for these cultural differences were those who wrote about a God of Abraham,

that they conceived as a creature that does not understand what He himself has created.

I am a gay who lived a long time as a straight man.  And this was neither bad nor good. 

Hopefully society will reach a point where sexual orientation won't be an issue,

and gender will be of interest mainly to urologists, gynecologists, obstetricians. 

[Guest LOL]

On 12/18/2018 at 2:28 PM, Guest Guest99 said:

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/eat-drink-man-woman-16/before-more-gheys-decide-use-legal-loophole-adopt-child-think-innocent-child-pls-5955944.html

 

What do we think of this thread? So much hatred and homophobia ... 

I can't stop laughing after reading some of the posts on the first and last page... LOL. I can smell there are some trolls in that thread... Lolll

[tomcat]

On 12/19/2018 at 7:39 PM, Cube3 said:

 

Yes, and that closer scrutiny is part of the hate and homophobia you mentioned. It should be something we stand up to, not give in to, no?

 

On 12/19/2018 at 11:57 PM, Wafflecorn said:

Do what you are comfortable with, at the end of the day, our life is for us to lead, not for others to dictate what is right or wrong. I think being in the LGBTQ+ community has taught me to celebrate whatever small victories there is, no mater how small or weird, as long as it contributes towards a more accepting and inclusive society. And I wholeheartedly agree with your stance on showing the kiddies on what love means and being LGBTQ+ is totally okay! Besides, these kiddies are the owners of what has yet to come and they will be the ones who will shape the future.

hmm, it seems there are two camps also about how do we handle the present situation and the future of being gay in singapore.

It's good to strike a balance between both, to be too tight-fisted proves the detractors right with their "gay agenda" nonsense, and to be too carefree allows for past mistakes to be made. All it takes for history to repeat itself is simply to forget, and that "the opposite of Love is not Hate, but Indifference". We don't need for people to Hate us for us to be discriminated or subjugated, just for them to feel indifferent to our struggles and experience.

 

The quote is from Elie Wiesel, he is a survivor of the holocaust and author of the biography "Night", which recount exactly how the ones who did not fight back (until too late) were just cattled off to camps and killed, not because they were hated, but because they were not cared about. From their own friends and neighbors, to local community. Even today, we are also being branded, just that it is invisible and complex.

Which is why I have shared my own contribution to the big picture. I am not cut out to be an activitist, but I do believe in a gentler way - planting seeds, good intentions, and letting them come forth over time. It's not always a method that many go for, because it takes constant mindfulness and intentions and works over decades obviously but it brings an organic and necessary balance.

For every hard activist out there, the rest must also contribute to the overall standing of the gay community. They can't be the only ones with their neck out. On the ground, we must also be there to be realistic with the more extreme/visible members of our community that often tend to misrepresents us as a whole and diverse group of people.

[Steve5380]

13 hours ago, tomcat said:

Which is why I have shared my own contribution to the big picture. I am not cut out to be an activitist, but I do believe in a gentler way - planting seeds, good intentions, and letting them come forth over time. It's not always a method that many go for, because it takes constant mindfulness and intentions and works over decades obviously but it brings an organic and necessary balance.

For every hard activist out there, the rest must also contribute to the overall standing of the gay community. They can't be the only ones with their neck out. On the ground, we must also be there to be realistic with the more extreme/visible members of our community that often tend to misrepresents us as a whole and diverse group of people.

 

Yes, many of us have other goals in life that take precedence over being activists, and our contribution to democracy may not be more than the infinitesimal weight of one vote out of several million.  But all the infinitesimals add up.

In the same way, we can contribute to the acceptance of homosexuality by spreading out our opinions about it, hopefully with realistic facts and good arguments. Even if some negative people, like some "guests", complain that we are preaching or calling for attention.

[Guest Blindspots Spotting]

15 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

Yes, many of us have other goals in life that take precedence over being activists, and our contribution to democracy may not be more than the infinitesimal weight of one vote out of several million.  But all the infinitesimals add up.

In the same way, we can contribute to the acceptance of homosexuality by spreading out our opinions about it, hopefully with realistic facts and good arguments. Even if some negative people, like some "guests", complain that we are preaching or calling for attention.

“Negative” by calling out the adding on to the malignant accusations, hatred, bigotry, prejudice, fake news, homophobia and rumor mongering of ignorant haters?

 

Negative on negative is positive, no?

 

Spreading positive opinions about homosexuality works marginally, with effects mostly limited to one’s immediate family and social circle. It will have a positive but slow effect.

 

Not everyone can wait for the soft approach to achieve results in decades after they have passed away, commited suicide, missed out on social, romantic and career opportunities, suffered social, romantic and financial losses, lost loved ones to migration, suicide, homophobic bullying and discrimination.

 

Activists are still very much needed but such approach can and had backfired many times. Just look at Taiwan. More than 8 Taiwanese gays had completed suicide after the announcement of negative referendum results. 

 

So a careful balance in approach is very much needed. One needs to push at tmes when necessary, but at the same time the needs and “concerns” of haters must also be carefully addressed.

 

All the myths about homosexuality must be debunked in a cogent and scientific manner that will neutralise those haters and bring them to our side; their worries about children turning gay, being disadvantaged under homosexual parents, women becoming redundant, heteroseuxal relationships being phased out, fears of families breaking up, society disintegrating and descending into moral chaos, country’s resources running out and human race becoming extinct due to society’s acceptance of homosexuality must be professionally, carefully and truthfully addressed.

 

Rome is not made in one day. We should observe and learn from other countries’ experience and mistakes, especially Asian societies like Taiwan, which is a valuable lesson in social activism. Christian right activism exported to Taiwan from American right wing christianity had also encroached into Singapore society. The devastating effects of their fake news feeds and hate mongering on both mainstream and social media could be replicated here in other forms with a similar devastating effect on the mental health and future prospects of the LGBT community here when that time comes too.

.

 

 

[Steve5380]

6 hours ago, Guest Blindspots Spotting said:

So a careful balance in approach is very much needed. One needs to push at tmes when necessary, but at the same time the needs and “concerns” of haters must also be carefully addressed.

 

All the myths about homosexuality must be debunked in a cogent and scientific manner that will neutralise those haters and bring them to our side; their worries about children turning gay, being disadvantaged under homosexual parents, women becoming redundant, heteroseuxal relationships being phased out, fears of families breaking up, society disintegrating and descending into moral chaos, country’s resources running out and human race becoming extinct due to society’s acceptance of homosexuality must be professionally, carefully and truthfully addressed.

 

Rome is not made in one day. We should observe and learn from other countries’ experience and mistakes, especially Asian societies like Taiwan, which is a valuable lesson in social activism. Christian right activism exported to Taiwan from American right wing christianity had also encroached into Singapore society. The devastating effects of their fake news feeds and hate mongering on both mainstream and social media could be replicated here in other forms with a similar devastating effect on the mental health and future prospects of the LGBT community here when that time comes too.

.

 

It is not clear what you propose.  You may have very good intentions, and then what?

 

Will you debunk the myths about homosexuality in a cogent and scientific manner?  You may be able to, but how you get the millions to listen to you and be convinced, even if you have foolproof evidence?

 

How you convince those who believe that an immortal soul is implanted in some cells at conception,  that their belief is nothing but speculation?  How you convince those who believe that any contraceptive violates a strong mandate of God, that their belief is no more than a fantasy?  How you convince those who believe evangelist Pat Robertson saying that natural disasters are caused by homosexuality?   No matter how well you explain the geology behind earthquakes, they may still believe more what Pat Robertson says.

 

The gain in rights for homosexuals in the US were not achieved by addressing the "concerns" of homophobic religious fanatics but by loudly demanding the rights of equality called out in the US Constitution.

 

Your country's acceptance of western's Christianity over the superior philosophy of Buddhism has been helped by the snobbish, elitist attitude of some of its inhabitants.  Those who worship the City Harvest Church (yes, they worship not a divinity but a church) are a good example. 

[Guest Jilin]

if gays are capable giving love and care to adult men, why can't they be to a child right? I think we should be allowed to adopt.

[xiaomimi]

On 12/18/2018 at 2:28 PM, Guest Guest99 said:

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/eat-drink-man-woman-16/before-more-gheys-decide-use-legal-loophole-adopt-child-think-innocent-child-pls-5955944.html

 

What do we think of this thread? So much hatred and homophobia ... 

hello straight homophobic guy from EDMW forum.

usually people from EDMW forum pronounce gays as “gheys” EDMW lingo

 

so bye Felicia