Discussion On Being Gay & Christian (Compiled)

[Guest gayChristian]

Hi, just to share a video.

This gay young man debates traditional interpretation of Scripture.

Might be worth to watch during your free time.

[Guest gaychristian]

excellent post. as a gay christian, this really spoke to me and brought tears to my eyes. thank you!

[Guest Qweeries]

What is the name of this video online ?

[cvbv1987]

awesome. Perfect video for my research. thanks Gaychristian. God bless.

[Guest gayChristian]

@cvbv: you're welcome

glad if it helps.

@Qweeries: the video title is the same as this thread title, you can search it in youtube.

[Guest yougivegoodlove]

why have to constantly seek approval and justification of yourself being gay?

just accept it and come terms with yourself and enjoy your sex.

got demand therefore got supply.

got old man seeking fulfillment of his empty hole, i am there to satisfy his needs.

it just is. no need think too much about it.

[fireworks]

God will always love me

I know this.

Death, life, angels, rulers,

things happening now, things that will happen,

high things, low things;

nothing else in all the world

can come between us and God's love in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8 : 39

[Kotaku]

Any Brothers here go to LightHouse Tampines?

Peace to you all.

[pop24246]

for all the christian gay out there, do u find acceptance at your church? Or are u asked to leave the premises? do share.

[EasleyLim]

This is interesting.

[tkong]

Most of the church not care so much.. You not the only one is ... Now the date in SG about 15-25% in the church are gay... fr range 20-60 yrs old, is today SG, not be worrier too much, God love us

[Guest J.Loh]

I do find acceptance as a person, but they dun encourage me in my lifestyle....Like the pastors did advice me to reconsider when I was preparing for baptism. Being from Church of our saviour that is....

[dannysuz]

There is only one sin that is unforgivable. That is the sin of not believing and not receiving Jesus Christ into your life.

A gay or homosexual person can accept Christ, just as an alcoholic, a drug addict, or a mass-murderer can accept Christ. Jesus' offer of salvation is open to everyone.

The Bible teaches that if someone has truly accepted Christ into his life, nothing can keep him out of heaven. In John 10:28, Christ says of Christians,

“I give them

eternal life

, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of My hand.”

This is like ctrl-alt-del. You are as clean as you are. I shall accept christ when I am 64 years old.. he he..

[Guest Boon Tong]

Many people just interpret religious teachings according to their own thoughts and spread to other people. So are these reliable?

What is important is the heart and one's actions. With kind heart and kind actions, even the spirits, gods will be on your side.

With cruel thoughts and cruel actions, even the judge in court also cannot help. Why? Fair and just. Same in the divine.

Different names of religions are just labels. As one grows older, experience more, and become wiser, one will know. May there be peace in the world.

[Guest Spalding]

boon tong. I think you're digressing from the original question.

Whether you're a homosexual, heterosexual, liar, murderer, adulterer... all have sinned and fallen short.. Hence the need for Jesus to save. A church should never turn you away just because you're homosexual, because Jesus would never do so. He welcomed sinners and healed and saved them during his time on earth. And he was harsh towards the pharisees (the religious scribes who were self-righteous).

So in summary to your question, if Jesus welcomes you with open arms just the way you are, who are the people at church to have the audacity to turn you away? So dont worry..just come.

[Marineboy]

Can a gay christian who chooses to accept a gay lifestyle go to heaven?

Why go to a church and wait for acceptance or wait to be kicked out?

You dont feel good just leave...you have a choice.

The way the bible was put together just makes me question that indeed it could be the work men. It sure leans towards that direction.

May i recommend you watch from video Jesue to Christ...available in google. I find believers just know too little and believe too much.

Or check out youtubes..who wrote the bible. Just keep seeking for info and your mind might just be open enough to see the light.

Anyone enlightened please share.

[Guest Donald]

Experiences of humans tell us that one does not have to belong to a religion or believe in some one in order to be saved.

[Guest Visitor]

Being Christian and gay, is this a fad? Why not choose other religion? Of convenience? A Christian submits himself to God entirely, not half and half.

[Guest NIL]

started believing in God many years ago and v been always trying to comfort myself with the thinking “God loves gay ppl too”. But the more i understand bible the more i feel confused and fell sad….

[Guest JY]

Hi to all my Christian Brothers... I understand the feeling of being lost. But we have a group just for AJ christians. Visit this tread to discuss this inside.

http://www.blowingwi...showtopic=34617

Cheers

[Guest J.Loh]

Gentlemen, The time has come.....Church of our saviour is going to step in soon against the trial and repeal of Act 377A.

Brace yourselves for this storm

[jason]

Gentlemen, The time has come.....Church of our saviour is going to step in soon against the trial and repeal of Act 377A.

Brace yourselves for this storm

why they want to kpo again leh ? step in when ?

[kytl68]

There is only one sin that is unforgivable. That is the sin of not believing and not receiving Jesus Christ into your life.

A gay or homosexual person can accept Christ, just as an alcoholic, a drug addict, or a mass-murderer can accept Christ. Jesus' offer of salvation is open to everyone.

The Bible teaches that if someone has truly accepted Christ into his life, nothing can keep him out of heaven. In John 10:28, Christ says of Christians,

“I give them

eternal life

, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of My hand.”

This is like ctrl-alt-del. You are as clean as you are. I shall accept christ when I am 64 years old.. he he..

Wow !!! Big statement !!! So there are at least 2 million 'sinners' in Singapore alone, all because they are not believer of J.C. ?!! Hmmm .... which chapter in the Bible says that? And I thought I have the right to choose my religion but didn't know not choosing a particular one is a sin !!! Hope no mayhem here .... hehehe. Nothing against any religion ... just speaking my mind

PEACE TO MANKIND .... religion or not .... you are what you are ... nobody can stop another or ask that someone to leave the premises all because he is gay !!!

[Crimson]

Just chanced upon this and thought it would be a good read: an article from one of our own.

Not intending to start an argument or anything, just as usual- to broaden people's minds, whether you're christian or not, gay, or just here to see the world burn.

I don't agree completely with him, but if you identify with the struggle and feel that this has helped you somewhat, or thought 'oh. I never knew people felt this way', then I've done my job. x)

http://www.facebook....151666786854676

Plato often chides me in a soft voice, saying, “Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a harder battle”. But it so hard, sir. Perhaps to be kind is the hardest battle that I fight.

And often who is it hardest to be kind to, but oneself? Being both gay and Christian - often portrayed as the two opposing sides of an epic war - tears me apart. I wish I could choose one or the other, but the unkindness I do to myself is to choose the honesty that I cannot renounce either.

Being Gay and Christian

Growing up in an ordinary, loving, Christian family, there was hardly anything wrong with my childhood. It was a normal and blissful upbringing. My parents were always present, always loving towards each other and to me (and still are), I was brought up according to good Christian morals, and there was little to want in the house. There was absolutely no gay figure in my childhood to influence me. Still, somehow, I turned out gay.

I noticed my sexual preference for boys even from kindergarten, an astonishingly young age. When I was 9 or 10 years old, a school teacher mentioned the word “gay” after watching a classmate horsing around with me, as boys do. I quickly connected the dots, and I still remember praying for God to take such inclinations away from me. I am 24 now, and I have never stopped praying for that. I remember praying so hard, so earnestly in my childlike faith. Every birthday, as I was asked to make a wish/prayer at the birthday cake, I would ask for only one thing - that God would take this away from me. I would sit alone in my bed on many nights and cry to myself. I was only a child - no 10 year old should have had to feel that way, so lost, so afraid, so confused, so alone. But such things happen in a fallen world.

I eventually came out to my parents at the age of 15. Yes, my parents were shocked and thought I was too young to be sure, but I had thought about it so hard all those years. I'd tried so hard to change - if I could, I would have. I'd figured I should tell them while I was still young and (relatively) lovable, rather than wait until I was an adult man. Before coming out to them, I spent days on the internet reading stories of people who came out to their parents, many of whom were thrown out of their homes. I still remember the fear I had in my heart when I finally told them in tears. Thankfully, they responded in love and, even though they understandably hold on to their Christian beliefs against homosexuality, they have never made me feel less for it. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for many other people who have faced rejection from the one place they needed acceptance most.

And I tried to change - heck, of course I did. And this is something which really irks me - I often hear Christians flippantly say that gays can change their sexuality, and that it is just a matter of choice. I do not claim to know for sure whether people are born gay, and whether they can change. What I know for sure is that for as far as I can remember, I have tried as hard as I can to be straight.

Who on earth would want to be gay? Gays are taunted, bullied, condemned, and rejected. Often, they have rejected themselves, hating themselves, many to the point of death. We have been rejected by society, by friends, by family, even by fellow homosexuals in such a very cruel circle. We have had to suppress everything within us, we have learnt to be ashamed of how we are so naturally inclined, we have been taught that we are less. We have spent countless nights unable to sleep, lying in bed, thinking about what a lonesome life we have predestined ahead of us. We have stared at straight couples, envied their freedom to love, devastated at the realization that we will never enjoy the blessing of simply being “normal” for a bit, to found a “normal” family, to eventually have grandchildren of our own in our old age.

And that is what we want - just to be normal. We have tried our best to be normal in the eyes of the world, but we just CANNOT. Heck, why can’t you understand that? And since we cannot be normal in that way, I can understand why we strive to be accepted as normal just as we are. We just want to be like that boy and girl in the street, accepted, fitting in, loved and loving another.

And how much worse being gay and Christian, to know that you will never be able to love someone without being plagued by a deep sense of guilt for your entire life, knowing that the only reciprocal love you are capable of is one that God disapproves of. How I wish it were only a problem I could debate about and then wave away, as so many people do. There is absolutely nothing to gain from choosing to be gay. Why on earth would anyone say, hey, maybe I’ll try to be sexually attracted to men for a bit and see how exciting that may be. That’s ridiculous. I, and millions of others, would have made such a switch by now. Perhaps there might be a way to change - I do not know. But what I do know is that I have tried all my life, and if it is THAT difficult to change, then there certainly is something to be said about that sort of “choice”.

Theology and homosexuality

I have no issue with Christians maintaining a doctrine condemning homosexuality - the Bible seems to propose that. What I have a problem with is ignorance - both with regards to homosexuality, and with theology.

Firstly, on homosexuality. Christians have displayed an astonishing lack of understanding concerning homosexuality - even while condemning it passionately. As mentioned earlier, the fact that so many Christians flippantly insist that being gay is a mere choice angers me. It trivializes this wrestle I have had all my life with this thorn in the flesh - and not just mine, but the struggle of millions of other homosexuals who have tried, and tried, and tried, and tried, and tried to change. It further angers me that Christians often speak of gay people as a tiny deviant group who have chosen to be morally corrupt . These Christians are completely oblivion to the fact that there are far more homosexuals in the world than they care to admit or realise. Estimates have ranged from 10%-20% of any general population, and that means there could be as many as half to one million gay people in Singapore. Or, closer to home, around 1000 homosexuals in a megachurch with a congregation of 10,000.

We are your sons and your daughters, your brothers and your sisters - often, we choose not to speak about our sexuality precisely because of this conscientious ignorance in the Church. We would rather not talk about it because of such an appalling lack of understanding towards homosexuality, and worse, a lack of interest to actually understand. We have already been rejected all our lives, so most of us would rather choose to pretend that the problem does not exist, than to expose ourselves to the potential barrage of ignorant condemnation, whether conscious and well-meaning or not. We happen to have sexual attraction towards the “wrong” gender, and try as we might, we can’t seem to get rid of that. Whether that is right or wrong is one matter - the fact is, your choice to treat homosexuals as a tiny majority who have chosen on volition to adopt a niche abomination is a wrong you that need to correct. When people passionately fight against something they display such an immense lack of understanding towards, that fight is flawed from the start. When people claim to love someone, yet choose to be spectacularly ignorant and flippant about his struggles, it is difficult to trust the value of that sort of “love”.

Secondly, you also display a glaring lack of understanding towards Christian theology itself. Sure, many non-Christians have been misquoting the Bible without understanding it, for instance, citing Old Testament dietary laws and symbolic prohibitions to mock the Law without understanding that the Doctrine of Supercession has rendered those laws dead. But that ought not be a mistake for you to make, you who purport to be lovers of the Word. For example, how many "religious" Christians I have met who have even insisted that mere homosexual temptations are sin. I only wish they would understand what they are saying before being certain about what they are uncertain about.

I will not claim to have an answer concerning the correctness/wrongness of homosexuality, but I put it to you that although I once thought the matter was fixed, I’m now persuaded it is far from conclusive. I used to strongly believe that the Bible condemns homosexuality, never once condoning it - that despite my own personal struggles, since I believe that Truth does not change because of my personal preferences. Hard as it is, I was, and still am, prepared to accept that.

However, the more I read the Bible and ask the difficult but critical questions, the more I come to see that the matter may be far from fixed. The debate is out there in public, done to death, and I shall not attempt to replicate it, but suffice to summarize it thus:

1. The Old Testament with its old laws have been superceded by the New Testament, Jesus being the High Priest of the New Covenant (see particularly, Hebrews 7-8).
   
2. The New Covenant is NOT synonymous with the New Testament (as I used to believe myself). In the New Testament, we see the development of the New Covenant, and that is evident in the changing rules ranging from the Gospels (where Jesus said that “not one yod or tittle will disappear from the Law”, and “whoever breaks the smallest of the Law and teaches others to do the same will be better off drowning himself” (Matthew 5:18-19)), to the Acts of the Apostles (where the apostles slowly adapted the dietary/customary rules of the Church to this New Covenant), to the epistles of Paul and the book of Hebrews which expound on the New Covenant.
   
3. So what exactly this “New Covenant” consists of is quite an uncertain matter. The Bible does not say “and these are the contents of the New Covenant: …”. Churches all through history and around the world have still been debating about it. Is it ok to eat meat sacrificed to idols? (Acts 15:29, but see 1 Corinthians 10:28 which says that it is not, in itself, morally wrong) Is it ok for women to speak in church? (1 Corinthians 14:34) Is it ok for women to wear jewellery (1 Timothy 2:9, 1 Peter 3:3)?
   
4. Thus I think it is not incompatible with Scripture to understanding that the question of homosexuality is far from settled. Paul wrote: “All things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial; all things are permissible for me, but not all things are constructive” (1 Corinthians 10:23). I put it to you that the rules of the New Covenant are not “laws” which must be followed to the letter, but analogies for living one’s lives. Just as symbolic dietary laws and laws prohibiting one from wearing clothes woven from two materials have been understood by most Christians to be merely analogous to deeper theological significance, so too the laws on gender. After all, gender really is just a temporary construct, and in Christ, there are no males or females (Galatians 3:28). I am not saying that we should therefore descend into lawlessness - my point is, the law should serve a practical purpose, and laws instituted for symbolism should be understood as merely that. And just as we now observe the Sabbath not strictly from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown, but understand in it the principle of Rest, so too we can observe the law on marriage as one of love, commitment, and monogamy, rather than that of strict gender.
   
5. Of course it is all debatable, and I do not claim monopoly on understanding, but all I wish to show here is that “the Bible says so!” is not a conclusive statement in the debate. A Christian who truly understands the Bible will fear to say such a thing.
   

Legislating against homosexuality

But let us ASSUME that the Bible does unequivocally condemn homosexuality. I would want to work to change my own lifestyle. In fact, I have been trying to do that all my life because despite my sexuality, 24 years of growing up in church have shown me the reality of God in ways I cannot explain away. I have seen friends healed miraculously, lives changed, and the work of God in my life and family in ways I cannot explain apart from the power of Christ. I wish I could explain them all away as mere coincidence or conspiracy as many do - I want to! - but I cannot lie to myself. In my heart of heart, I know that the Christian God is real, and I am willing to try to give up my lifestyle, even if I doubt my own strength to.

However, most of the gay community do not subscribe to Christianity. While I will defend the Church’s right to proselytise and maintain its stand on homosexuality, I cannot defend its attempt to legislate against it. Do not get me wrong - as citizens of this nation, I completely support your right to do so. I reject the silly notion that “Separation of Church and State” means that politics must necessarily be informed by ONLY secular voices. After all, all opinions are informed by worldviews and philosophies, whether involving a deity or not. To insist that only those views involving none should be allowed to be aired in public discourse is contrary to the notion of secular. Indeed, as a secular multi-religious nation, secularism and religion are not incompatible - it simply means that people are not judged according to their religion or lack thereof. Just because a person’s opinion is founded in a particular religion does not disqualify it from being used to influence public policy.

However, while I defend your right to influence legislation against homosexuality, I disagree with it. After all, what benefit does it do, apart from creating even more animosity than already exists between the Church and homosexuals? Gay people HATE Christianity (generally). Section 377A of the Penal Code criminalizes consensual private sexual activity - what does that do for your cause? As I have explained, people are going to be gay regardless of what you say or do, and they are going to continue being so, even if they try their best not to be. What is criminalization going to change? Calling me a criminal is not going to make me love and marry a woman. Heck, I WANT to do it, even without 377A, but what prevents me from doing so is not something that can be changed by the law.

Moreover, homosexuality is a small sin in Christianity. All such sins are ultimately forgivable, but there is one unpardonable sin - that of idolatry. In other words, the sin of idol-worship and beliefs in other gods (or none) is the biggest sin in Christianity. Yet Christians do not insist that all non-Christians be legally prohibited from doing so. We do not pray for Islam or Buddhism to be made illegal. While we profess and stand by the fact that idolatry is wrong and will lead to eternal damnation, we respect the God-given freedom that each man and woman has to make choices for themselves. While we assume the responsibility to “be the salt and light of the world” (Matthew 5:13) and to “teach the nations to obey” (Matthew 28:18) God, we recognise that teaching does not consist of, or involve, forcing. That is why Christians support religious freedom which, historically, had its origins in the Protestant Reformation itself. Why, then, must it be different for homosexuality?

Jesus never condoned sin. He never compromised on His beliefs on morality which were clear to all who knew Him as a Jewish teacher - and He frequently taught on those topics. The difference between Jesus and (many) Christians lies in their approach.

This is how Jesus treated the prostitute: He looked at her, and without condemnation, said "Your sins are forgiven. Your faith has saved you; go in peace." (Luke 7.48-50). This is how Jesus treated the adulteress caught in the very act of adultery (imagine that!): He defended her from her prosecutors by saying to them "let he without sin cast the first stone", then turned to her and said, "I don't condemn you. Just leave your life of sin." (John 1.8-11). Contrast that with how Christians treat homosexuals today. This is how Jesus treated those who chose not to believe in Him: to the young rich man who could not bring himself to change his lifestyle, Jesus spoke with and tried to persuade him, but ultimately respected his choice and his freewill, and let him go his way (Matthew 19.16-22). Compare that to how Christians treat those who make un-Christian choices today.

Jesus said He did not come to condemn sinners but to save them (John 3.17). And this is what He had to say to the chief priest of His day and the religious people who were so conformed to what they have been taught by men, who were so stuck in their personal prejudices and self-righteousness that they missed the whole point: "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you (Matthew 21.32)". Would Jesus have advocated for a law to criminalise homosexuality? I highly doubt it.

So what am I writing all of this for? First, I just hope that Christians will seek to understand homosexuality before passing judgement of whatever kind on gay people. If we need anything, it is understanding, support, and love - not rejection, which we have faced all of our lives from every side. Second, I hope that Christians will seek to understand the Bible and what it says (and does not say) about homosexuality (and everything else) before using Bible quotes out of context and without qualification. Thirdly, I hope that non-Christians will be more understanding towards Christians as well. We all have a worldview (whether religious or secular), and Christians have every right to express their genuine beliefs, AND to use them to inform their stand on public policy, just as you have the right to use your non-religious beliefs to inform how the law should change. Debate, then, not mock. And think before you click that “like” button.

At the end of the day, we are all human, wrestling our own struggles daily, whether gay or Christian, both or neither. Most of us just want to be human without malice, and can do with as much support and love as we can get, not condemnation - whether of our persons, our religious beliefs, or our lifestyles.

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have a battle called “life” to fight today.

[sliceboy]

Christianity is not truer than all other religions as many like to literally believe.

[EasleyLim]

"I reject the silly notion that “Separation of Church and State” means that politics must necessarily be informed by ONLY secular voices. [...] Just because a person’s opinion is founded in a particular religion does not disqualify it from being used to influence public policy."

Actually what I think "Seperation of Church and State" means is that public policies should be made in the interest of the general public WITHOUT using church morals, or any kind of religious morals for that matter, as a basis for it because of biasness. So let's say if we allow one religion to create a policy favouring its moral, the govnt will have to open its gates to ALL other religions or risk being accused of biasness. If 2 religious policies contradicts each other, how are we gonna solve it without the govnt looking like it favors one over the other? That's why Seperation of Church and State is not just a "silly notion" like he claims.

[gstc82]

Being a Christian, its between God and I n no one else.

[Marineboy]

You are your destiny...

If you chance upon a gay God...let him be your Lord and Saviour

If you want to live a lie....feel good about it....its your choice

If you want to be who you are you are not alone

You can be a Christian

You can be Gay

Strange as it may seems some churches seem to accept PLUs

Its all depends on who wants to start a movement

Conclusion...its all man made

Enjoy your time on earth.

Try to make this world a better place is the least you can do in your lifetime

Be helpful and share love to those around you,

You don't need religion to have morals...but if that's what you want...hey its your choice bro.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Marineboy

[Guest ManDragon]

This is Child's play. Just get over it.

God is with me today and yesterday.

I have morals better then the straights even.

Do not let the notion gay condemn you, but take the trial and rise above with greater strength.

The stone that was rejected by the builder has become the corner stone.

[SeannyShortcake]

So you're trying to impose your sexuality on a religion,shared by so many zealous people around the world,which also so happens to be anti-homosexual and a shit load of other things too?

 

Futile.

 

But don't let me stop you from trying.

[Gray]

Being gay and being christian can never be reconciled. The whole religion hates what you are.

 

End of Story.

[gstc82]

Being gay and being christian can never be reconciled. The whole religion hates what you are.

End of Story.

the religion does not hate gays, its some of its people.

[Gray]

the religion does not hate gays, its some of its people.

 

You mean most of its people. And they justify it using the bible, which is the core of the entire religion.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Gray

[EasleyLim]

You mean most of its people. And they justify it using the bible, which is the core of the entire religion.

Actually the core of Christianity is love, believe it or not. It's all about love and acceptance, love thy neighbour and all that jazz but I know what you mean. When men decides to speak for the divine, shit happens. But it's no fault of the divine for humans are scumbags, always has always will be.

Edited March 21, 2013 by EasleyLim

[Jonedison]

I am christian myself and gay. I also study theology and I am sure that God loves everyone, but it is because Human like to set boundaries and use quotes in the bible to defend certain stand which causes conflict between christian and non-christian. So in the end I agree that the r/s between God and U is based on your choices. Religion is based on Law and regulation, but true Christianity is stem on the r/s between God and U. 

 

I am gay for 12 years and a christian for 14 years and till date God is still very real to me and He still leads me and guides me... Though it may be contradicting to some, I am sure there are also alot of gays and christian around who can verify and shared the same notion that God did not abandon them just because they are gay but it is the people who choose to support or disown this christian Ajs among us.

[Gray]

Actually the core of Christianity is love, believe it or not. It's all about love and acceptance, love thy neighbour and all that jazz but I know what you mean. When men decides to speak for the divine, shit happens. But it's no fault of the divine for humans are scumbags, always has always will be.

 

Hmmm well, have you read the bible? My opinion on the core of Christianity is quite the opposite. But to each their own.

[EasleyLim]

Hmmm well, have you read the bible? My opinion on the core of Christianity is quite the opposite. But to each their own.

Well, the New Testament is about love, very hippie like. I like the Old Testament better, a lot more dramatic with the whole kill first-born, sacrifice your child, talking snake and shenanigans.

[alien0505]

Bro let's encourage each other. God LOVES every single one of us. Be it who you are. We are his children.

[curious_boi]

Interview with Pastor Quinn - A gay converter

 

[Guest Religon]

All religons are made up ideas to try and help people lead happier more fufilling personal lives. If your religon is not provding comfort and norishment for your own personal self growth and happiness, then maybe it's time to find a new belief system.

 

I'm always amazed at Christians that think they have to cowtail to some other person's interpretation of stories that have been translated, manipulated and purposely changed to meet a political agendas from the past to today.

 

Whatever happened to free thought. Stand up as a proud gay man and be counted as part of the human race. This can take many forms and common sense has to prevail for one's own safety and well-being.

[Guest Wesley]

I believe God is perfect and doesn't make mistakes so being gay must be okay. If I was made in the image of God, as the bible tells me, then being gay has to be part of God. Case closed; being gay is okay.

[EasleyLim]

Whatever happened to free thought. Stand up as a proud gay man and be counted as part of the human race. This can take many forms and common sense has to prevail for one's own safety and well-being.

One can't have free thought (or free will) if your deity of choice tells you not to test Him in explicit terms. That's what faith is.

[Gray]

Easley, I'm confused. Are you or are you not well versed in this particular material? Because I can link you to a couple of sites exploring the inconsistencies that exist when a religion extols both the "virtues" of blind faith and free will.

It is said that Jesus cannot appear before us in modern times because it would take away our free will. Yet if free will is evidently important enough for him not to want to take it away from us, then god wouldn't have a plan for us, would he?

It is said that from the moment you are born, everything has been decided for you. That also means whether you become a Christian or not. So in that case, faith and free will couldn't possibly exist now, could it? Since you are a puppet whose strings are being pulled from above. And yet Jesus can't appear before us because it would take our free will away from us. The whole thing just sounds so clever, doesn't it?

Easley, are you or are you not a Christian? Have you thoroughly explored the source material and know exactly what it teaches? Cos I'll be frank; I feel strongly for this topic and it is not one where anyone can just make interpretations on without properly studying it.

[FirsTimer]

Hello fellow Christian! =)) I dont have much to give.. But if you truly know God, Christianity frees you, not trap you.. Try to realize the unholiness in your life that you have yet to surrender to God.. Just dont engage in sexual activity with another first..

Leviticus 18:22 (New International Version)

Having feelings for another guy is still highly debatable and "negotiable" because there arent anything about feelings for another guy in the Bible (if Im correct).. 

 

P.S. This is in no way me trying to be offensive! I hope I am being sufficiently tactful.. Hahahah

[Mercutio]

Easley, I'm confused. Are you or are you not well versed in this particular material? Because I can link you to a couple of sites exploring the inconsistencies that exist when a religion extols both the "virtues" of blind faith and free will.

It is said that Jesus cannot appear before us in modern times because it would take away our free will. Yet if free will is evidently important enough for him not to want to take it away from us, then god wouldn't have a plan for us, would he?

It is said that from the moment you are born, everything has been decided for you. That also means whether you become a Christian or not. So in that case, faith and free will couldn't possibly exist now, could it? Since you are a puppet whose strings are being pulled from above. And yet Jesus can't appear before us because it would take our free will away from us. The whole thing just sounds so clever, doesn't it?

Easley, are you or are you not a Christian? Have you thoroughly explored the source material and know exactly what it teaches? Cos I'll be frank; I feel strongly for this topic and it is not one where anyone can just make interpretations on without properly studying it.

Gray,

Your views are noted and well taken.

Which source materials would you be referring to and how would you define these? Do you refer to the Gospels only or do you include the Epistles of Paul? After all, Paul never met "the Man" and the Apostles all quite disliked him. Would you be sticking only to the New Testament or do you refer also to the Old, in particular the Pentateuch? Because there's one book within the Pentateuch which is a later addition after all... and very likely to have been written for political purposes. Do you include the Deuterocanonicals? How about the writings of the Doctors of the Church: Augustine of Hippo, Clement of Alexandria, St Jerome of course, but also Thomas Aquinas? What if they were writings but not promulgated at a Council? Papal bulls only? What if it's something not pronounced upon by the Magisterium or the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, but in common practice accepted as Church belief?

And on that note, are you restricting the scope only to the Latin Church and its subsequent derivatives? How about the Eastern Churches? They too are recognized to be Apostolic and of equal dignity although Rome is the only one of the five Patriarchates to have enjoyed (sort of) unbroken continuity. What about the Nestorians, the Copts, the Ethiopian Church, the Assyrian Church, the Armenian and so forth? I'm not very clear what you mean when you speak of "Church" in singular... Only the Catholic (ie "Universal") Churches? Anglicans are Catholics after all, just not Roman Catholics. How about everything that splintered off as Protestant following Martin Luther? Because there we have everything from Calvinists to Prosperity Theology to the Free Community Church.

And do you refer only to "official" interpretations of these source doctrines? There is a significant corpus of academic and scholastic work which objectively may be reckoned to be more accurate. As an example, the much quoted Exodus 22:18, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". The actual word in Hebrew is much more vague, and was also used to refer to poisoners. There was no condemnation after all, of Saul visiting the "Witch" of Endor. Similarly, the pronouncements against homosexuality in Leviticus et al, were very plausibly, if not probably, in academic opinion, directed only at the Jewish priesthood, to bar them from taking part in the rites of Canaanite deities, which included taking one up the bum. After all, shortly after, there is the injunction not to cook a lamb in its mother's milk, which is documented to have been part of the rites of Astarte.

I'm a bit tired of seeing this topic every six months to be honest. Gray, I agree with you. Easley, I agree with you. The reason why you too don't think u

[Mercutio]

Knnccb

The reason why you two don't agree is because Gray defines Christianity by the strict doctrines of a narrow set of established institutions, whereas Easley defines it by a loose corpus of core beliefs.

[EasleyLim]

Knnccb

The reason why you two don't agree is because Gray defines Christianity by the strict doctrines of a narrow set of established institutions, whereas Easley defines it by a loose corpus of core beliefs.

Thank you, Mercutio.

Some how this situation managed to present itself as a metaphor for religions, considering how we are talking about the divine and what happens when men interpret the words of divine for themselves. Misunderstandings will happen and either sides, while having used the same source material, still ended up with different understandings of the Word of God.

Edited March 22, 2013 by EasleyLim

[Gray]

I haven't the vaguest idea what you were talking about there, mercutio. But I'll tell u that the source material I was referring to is the bible. The one that readily available to all Christians and the one they all refer to. Never mind the version, the core teachings are the same.

I don't have time right now to check the exact verses. But I can tell u that homosexuality is clearly forbidden, not only in old testament, but in new testament as well.

You're right, humans freey interpret the bible as they wish. But ask yourselves this: if your Christian god is true and loves all his children, why doesn't he make it clear in the bible that being gay is ok? Why does he create a situation such that thousands of gay people around other parts of the world are killed, bullied and driven to suicide cos god says in the bible that it is not ok to be gay? Shall I link some news here exposing some of the atrocities that people do to faggots in other countries?

Being in lawful and moderately tolerant Singapore, we may not realise the full extent of the kind of hatred the bible incites against homosexuality. That does not mean it does not exist.

[PinkPANther]

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." - Gandhi

"There has been only one Christian. They caught him and crucified him - early." -Mark Twain

 

The above 2 quotes succinctly encapsulates what I believe of the Christian faith, but with that established, I am not an atheist. I'm a tad too lazy to engage myself in a philosophical debate.

[sliceboy]

Letting Go of God, Julia Sweeney

http://juliasweeney.com/letting-go-of-god/
http://www.amazon.com/Letting-Go-God-Julia-Sweeney/dp/B000MM107I

 

15-minute Preview

http://www.ted.com/talks/julia_sweeney_on_letting_go_of_god.html

 

You may find some parts on YouTube.

Edited November 18, 2013 by sliceboy