A Christian Response To The Rony Tan Incident

[Guest Christian]

I encountered this video which I think is good and interesting. Click below to view:

[Guest Matty]

You should not do this because, unfortunately, this Rony Tan's incident came right after the AWARE saga, makes us (the non-Christian and the homosexual community) feel that:

1) How much sorry that was said during the AWARE saga was just lip service because it happened again in Rony Tan's incident;

2) that if a pastor himself is incapable of being enlightened or delivered by his God, then what of those many thousands who are not pastors?

3) because there are thousands of them, their discrimination against other religions, sexual orientation or races can never seen the daylight. So, the discrimination may continue without public knowledge. Can you imagine this happens in schools?

It is very very alarming and frightening to hear a pastor said such thing (reported in Fridae):

He further linked homosexuality with bestiality saying: ”If you allow [homosexuality], next time people will want to get married to monkeys. And they will want rights. They’ll want to apply for HDB [a colloquial term to mean a government subsidised flat]. With a donkey or a monkey or a dog and so on. It’s very pathetic.”

I don't think the issue is whether the christian community should say sorry. The real issue is how the christian community should learn to reflect and especially reflect on why they are not able to love thy neighbours enough.

[Guest Guest]

Dear BW Fellas

I'm a Christian myself. What Pastor Rony Tan had said was just his personal words , it cannot represent the views of other Christian workers/pastors nor can it represent God, for sure. We should not look up to a person and affects our view on certain aspects or perspectives ; we should be objective and should not conclude that Christianity is as such just because of one person had said some silly things.

[Freedom711]

I think the same too. I believe what Pastor Rony said is based on his own account. I think the motive is to make use of the event to broadcast his gay bashing mentality and probably to gain support from the audience. I doubt its anything to do with the christian community. I would said its jux happen that theres a gay basher in the christian community and it so happen that this fellow is a pastor.

Anyway I just felt what ever he said or done comes with a consequences. He shall pay for that then.

[Guest Matty]

You all still don't get it, don't you? My point was to let the matter rest and say or explain no further. The more you do, the worst it becomes. Let me explain:

(1) You said: "it cannot represent the views of other Christian workers/pastors nor can it". It can taken as: since his apology is personal and does not represent the rest, then there are many other there who thinks what he does is correct and should be supportive of his behaviour.

(2) You said: "it so happen that this fellow is a pastor". He is not just a christian; he is a religious leader. A minister's mistake is many times severe than just an ordinary citizen because of its influential position, don't you think so?

(3) you said: "We should not look up to a person and affects our view on certain aspects or perspectives". I agree with your point that "we should not". But the fact is that, it happened.

Just let the matter rest.

[TheVisitors]

You all still don't get it, don't you? My point was to let the matter rest and say or explain no further. The more you do, the worst it becomes. Let me explain:

(1) You said: "it cannot represent the views of other Christian workers/pastors nor can it". It can taken as: since his apology is personal and does not represent the rest, then there are many other there who thinks what he does is correct and should be supportive of his behaviour.

(2) You said: "it so happen that this fellow is a pastor". He is not just a christian; he is a religious leader. A minister's mistake is many times severe than just an ordinary citizen because of its influential position, don't you think so?

(3) you said: "We should not look up to a person and affects our view on certain aspects or perspectives". I agree with your point that "we should not". But the fact is that, it happened.

Just let the matter rest.

What Matty is trying to convey is, what had happened, is irreversible.There is no need to judge him, let others do the job. For there are many out there who agree and share his views firmly.

What is done is done, we can't do much. The most important is how we each choose to live our own lives as individuals. without being bothered or affected by a whole bunch of ignorant, unkind people out there.

Edited February 19, 2010 by TheVistors

[Guest Guest]

Thanks for the clarifications. Hugs:-)

[Guest Gay Man]

Dear BW Fellas

I'm a Christian myself. What Pastor Rony Tan had said was just his personal words , it cannot represent the views of other Christian workers/pastors nor can it represent God, for sure.

If you heard the loud applause and laughters from 12000 people in the church, his personal words must have influenced a lot of christians. Under such circumstances, anything personal is no longer personal but war declarations. Because of Rony's utterances, can you imagine 12000 christians going back to their workplace, streets and everywhere to preach the same thing and descriminate the harmless gay? If Rony stop talking about gay, damages can be reduced and not spread. He is using his status to do just that and no longer a personal words but words of god as he claimed. How can you say he is exonerated because that was just his own opinion? How come no christian wants to step up to him and tell him straight in the face that is not what christians believe? Silence is simply too deafening and a sign of approving from the christian community.

[applepie]

What Matty is trying to convey is, what had happened, is irreversible.There is no need to judge him, let others do the job. For there are many out there who agree and share his views firmly.

What is done is done, we can't do much. The most important is how we each choose to live our own lives as individuals. without being bothered or affected by a whole bunch of ignorant, unkind people out there.

I can only agree with you to a certain extent.

We can all just mind our own business and live our own lives.

But here you have a Looney Tan going all out to spread his beliefs to a very large group of people with a mean intention to influence their thinking and reasoning -

That Buddhism is supernatural and demonic

That other religions are all fakes

That a tibetian monk who could read one's past lives was a cheap David Copperfield trick.

And equate "oo ee oo ah ah ting tang wala wala bing bang" to a Buddhist chant was downright insulting to the highest degree!

And of cos all those unkind words about gay people.

I am glad that we have people like Roystan Tan together with 80 others, stood up and reported him to the police.

The guy is no different from Osama!

Don't you think that he should to be locked up indefinately before he go on poisoning more minds!

Edited February 19, 2010 by applepie

[Guest Very angry]

I am glad that we have people like Roystan Tan together with 80 others, stood up and reported him to the police.

The guy is no different from Osama!

Don't you think that he should to be locked up indefinately before he go on poisoning more minds!

I fully agree that he should be locked up. He is too damaging to PLUs. Today he attacked with words, the next he might hold an unrest to force political leaders to close down our saunas and what's next - another incident like AWARE saga. Because of people like Rony, we have outdated law like 377A still hagglings around our neck. Than he was also capable of getting a stupid ex-monk who talked like retard (if you watched the video) for his plaything to discriminate buddhist and taoist. Rony is really a bombshell in Singapore and should be locked up like terrorist.

[Guest carter]

are we talking about the gay bashing here or the buddhist remark? anyway both of these incidents came about by his belief. his gay homophobic teachings might be coming from some old book in old testament. and as most uneducated people, took it as a literal sense and thus condemned gays, and lesbians.

the buddhist remark though, might be more serious. as it might be based on the fundamental law of christianity - the 10 commandments. the first 3 laws talk about the christian God as the one true God and that there should be no other gods (or religion). i guess this sort of tenet might not be even unique to christianity. so he was just following his belief, although i might say in poor taste.

[Guest hmmm]

Dear BW Fellas

I'm a Christian myself. What Pastor Rony Tan had said was just his personal words , it cannot represent the views of other Christian workers/pastors nor can it represent God, for sure. We should not look up to a person and affects our view on certain aspects or perspectives ; we should be objective and should not conclude that Christianity is as such just because of one person had said some silly things.

i disagree when you say it is his personal words. personal words should not be spoken in front of a congregation of 12000 and broadcast in the church's website. leadership comes with responsibility. personal (views) do not have a place when a leader go in front of his congregation. it is not responsible and it does more harm than good.

[potion]

It's sad that a pastor, as a leader of sorts, could be so narrow-minded and prejudiced.

I'm just glad more and more people these days are capable of independent thinking and reasoning. With education, the days of these type of communities where people willingly believe everything another person claims as the highest truth, are numbered. Such court cases are useful this way. It encourages people to wake up and reflect on their attitudes and prejudices.

Edited February 19, 2010 by potion

[Guest gaysingaporean]

This is so similiar to the Ku Klux Klan... so much hate!

I always thought being religious is to be peace-loving and accepting differences!

[Mandrake]

This is so similiar to the Ku Klux Klan... so much hate!

I always thought being religious is to be peace-loving and accepting differences!

Religions come from believes. Believes are the very things that separates us or unite us. There is only one thing that everyone can agree upon. The concept of Love. If even love is snuffed out... only a husk remains.

[TheVisitors]

If you ever take a trip to London, just drop by the famous Speakers' Corner at Mable Arc.

You will be very amazed and will be very frightened by the fanatics, expressing their views on Christianity, Heaven and Hell,on them condeming gays, on how they bashed other religions.

Thus if I were to compare them to Rony's, I must say his tactics are very mild. In fact, he provided comic relief and silent giggles to those who are pretty well versed in the Buddhist true literature. They will probably forgive him based on his pathetic ignorances; they are not better than a child's senseless prattlings and play.

In the Speakers' corner, there is a vast congregations of different dominations of beliefs.

The Christians, the Jews, the Israelites, the Muslims.... with many other groups. In fact it is very messy market, where someone described " a market where nutcases are drawn to each other like magnets and iron fillings"

Everyone shouts and drowns his opponents, all wanting to be heard. Each wants to be heard, want to feel important and righteous, each wants to seen by their God that their are doing his work so they can enter into his kingdom.

They are sadly separated by their unproven beliefs in what they believe in how their God should be, in their little minds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWrLGbJOKlg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8yucW-M_s8

Its a messy mad mad world,of bitching debating arguements... the above clips from youtube would depict this horrid and mess

Policemen are deployed, all ready, in case a violence outbreak may occur.

They even expressed their dislike and displeasure with the presence of foreigners in their country

Even I was not spared. I was, one side being bombarded by the Christians to believe in Christ, and on the other side, to find myself, fiercely entertained by a racist group. The latter group really thought at first i was from China, and couldn't speak English, till i lashed out my commmand of spoken English, and shut their little minds with what I know.

But, you will or can never find Buddhist preaching there. In fact, none of my friends who have being there,have ever seen this group.

Its a way of truth you have to realize for yourself. No one can "preach" to you. Either you are aware of it, or you don't.

In fact it is the only religion, along with Hinduism, and Taoism (the pure Taoism, that if you based the original Tao De Ching)that doesn't defame other religions.

I think in all respect, they are contented and at peace with themselves, that defaming others , was never in their nature.

If I had shared my paranormal experiences and what i saw at the other side - the light - from my death experience with those group, I would have being bashed relentessly by them.

This little messy market is merely a small scale, which amplifies the daily prejudges and discriminations we have to live, tolerate and bear through, day in and out, on a globally larger scale, with a whole bunch of ignorants out there. That is why I said, there is so much we can only do, there is only so much the ignorants can accept and understand, so why bother?

I rather please myself and live in my own contentment, far far away from the madding crowd.

My own individual life is far more important, than what others would like to judge and think, of who I am.

The next time to London, I would give the Speakers' corner amiss.

I rather have a nice outdoor picnic with my friends, look at the beautiful sky, smell the English roses, and appreciate what the Universe has given me so far, and never to forget those who are less fortunate.

Edited February 20, 2010 by TheVistors

[camphorwood]

i disagree when you say it is his personal words. personal words should not be spoken in front of a congregation of 12000 and broadcast in the church's website. leadership comes with responsibility. personal (views) do not have a place when a leader go in front of his congregation. it is not responsible and it does more harm than good.

did the Guest say Rony Tan was responsible to say those things? I doubt so.

[Guest unchristian me]

If you heard the loud applause and laughters from 12000 people in the church, his personal words must have influenced a lot of christians. Under such circumstances, anything personal is no longer personal but war declarations. Because of Rony's utterances, can you imagine 12000 christians going back to their workplace, streets and everywhere to preach the same thing and descriminate the harmless gay? If Rony stop talking about gay, damages can be reduced and not spread. He is using his status to do just that and no longer a personal words but words of god as he claimed. How can you say he is exonerated because that was just his own opinion? How come no christian wants to step up to him and tell him straight in the face that is not what christians believe? Silence is simply too deafening and a sign of approving from the christian community.

Thank GOD I left the church 20 yrs ago. Now I am a free thinker. I have many friends(ex) who appeared to be very staunch christian but are having extra marital affairs with other christians. I also met some married christians who ventured into the gay sauna scene. I hope his children ended up being gay one day. then he will spend more time accepting than judging.

[Guest hmmm]

did the Guest say Rony Tan was responsible to say those things? I doubt so.

perhaps you are not in the know of the context of this thread or you did not know what this whole issue is about?...

[gymchatguy]

1stly Rony Tan is a Christian Leader... Me being brought up in a christian environment, my pastor/s have been teaching us get our facts from the word of God - Bible... He is using his leadership and making groundless sermon/speech... I think it is scary that he is still allowed to continue to preach... He will create unneccesary intolerance to others, Singapore government have been teaching us to be respectful to individual belief and thoughts (remember our pledge?)... I really hope that the government is doing something to prevent these kind of people to continue to teach or preach in Singapore...

[Guest ex-christian]

I think what he said about marrying an animal and apply for a HDB flat is Malicious. Single person above 35 can apply for a HDB flat on their own. This statement is meant to HURT.

He is a christian leader of 12,000 and his intention is NOT noble. They always say love the sinner and hate the sin, that's totally bullshit as many had experienced in the past.

His other statement like 50% of the population will be gay and gay means no procreation and death are also SINISTER. These words are intentioned to make his congregation to hate gays. You and I know that the world will not be 50% gay. Even with less than 10%, the straights are fighting back (I am NOT advocating a fight), just voicing my opinion that someone has to teach them real respects for others.

He is a damn idiot to think that gays cannot procreate. Just look at how many christain pastors in the USA are married have children and visit gay prostitutes! By blaming the procreation problem on gays show his very ugly thinking. Why don't he make sure that all married couples in his congregation stop using contraceptives have have unlimited children to start with. And what is he doing with all the unmarried women in his congregation.

Such morons should stop influencing others. Bad karma will always find its way back to its owner.

[camphorwood]

i disagree when you say it is his personal words. personal words should not be spoken in front of a congregation of 12000 and broadcast in the church's website. leadership comes with responsibility. personal (views) do not have a place when a leader go in front of his congregation. it is not responsible and it does more harm than good.

Agree with u that Rony Tan's action is not responsible and it does more harm than good. But I think Guest is correct to say that it is his personal view. Whether we admit it or not, everything we say reflects our view. If u say that personal views should not be spoken in front of a congregation of 12000, then what do u expect him to say? Interpretation and personal view is closely related. Rony Tan's personal view affects his interpretation of the bible, and he brings his interpretation of the bible to his congregation. One can only say that he says more than what he should, and he is malicious, unfair, rude, bias, .... ....

As the leader of such a big congregation, he should be more considerate of the feelings of others (Taoists,homosexuals, etc.).

[Guest notloony]

If u say that personal views should not be spoken in front of a congregation of 12000, then what do u expect him to say? Interpretation and personal view is closely related. Rony Tan's personal view affects his interpretation of the bible, and he brings his interpretation of the bible to his congregation. One can only say that he says more than what he should, and he is malicious, unfair, rude, bias, .... ....

A very weak arguement.

Our Prime Minister surely has his own personal views on a lot of issues. Our ministers as well. Let's not forget our Principles and Teachers. But do they fan the flames of controversy? NO.

And on a more direct level, TV hosts and Radio DJs all have their personal take on things. Some of course you can say them loud, like "I don't like the song" or "The wanton mee is too oily" (for those food programmes). But when you hear them talking about sensitive issues that might rock the social stability? Well if you do, the offenders are probably no more working in those media fields.

Being a religious leader does NOT give him any poetic licence. Rather, he should be even more careful and responsible for the words that come out between his lips. If he can't even meet this criteria. I'm sorry, he should not even be allowed to preach to such a HUGE congregation. He has not earned the right to do so, especially in a multi-racial and multi-religion country like Singapore.

[Guest Erotictales]

To expand on notloony's analogy: the food critic doesn't go, "this wanton mee is too oily! If you eat it, you will get stomach cancer and die horribly from it!"

There is quite an obvious line between a person line, and dramatic vilification.

[Guest notloony]

If you ever take a trip to London, just drop by the famous Speakers' Corner at Mable Arc.

You will be very amazed and will be very frightened by the fanatics, expressing their views on Christianity, Heaven and Hell,on them condeming gays, on how they bashed other religions.

Thus if I were to compare them to Rony's, I must say his tactics are very mild. In fact, he provided comic relief and silent giggles to those who are pretty well versed in the Buddhist true literature. They will probably forgive him based on his pathetic ignorances; they are not better than a child's senseless prattlings and play.

I agree with you about the Speakers' Corner. It is indeed more fanatical and extreme. However, it is fair play in an environment like that. People go to the park expecting to hear such speeches. But it is totally different context in the sacred church. The perception (not to mention the size) of the audience is totally different.

I would just roll my eyes at Rony's bigoted ignorance if I were to chance upon him and his feeble speech in Hyde Park. But I would be incensed if I were to hear him make that same speech at a church congregation. He is given the power to preach and yet he delivers negative teachings time and again. Random passers-by may give him a pinch of salt in the park, but certainly not his massively keen church followers who may look up to him for direction and enlightenment.

Hence, it's not just a matter of the content of his speech, but also the spatial environment it was made, and the size of the audience, and MOST importantly, the role he undertakes in that environment, which is a spiritual LEADER and TEACHER. (That would put all the argument about him entitled to his own individual opinions etc down the HDB rubbish chute.)

[chubbylover]

But, you will or can never find Buddhist preaching there. In fact, none of my friends who have being there,have ever seen this group.

Its a way of truth you have to realize for yourself. No one can "preach" to you. Either you are aware of it, or you don't.

One reason is because the teachings of Buddhism mentioned tolerance and acceptance of the people around you, and not to speak ill of them.

[Guest hitex]

this is slightly off the topic and hope to be enlightened or did i miss some detail?

God created adam and then eve. then they had offsprings cain and abel. how and with whom

did cain and abel had sex to produce offspring? back then there were only 3 men and a woman.

Or is it with animals as "highlighted" by looney tan?

i am not trying to be offensive please!!!!!!!

[suckling_pig]

Hi Hitex,

My identity card lists me as "christian". But I now less than comfortable using that label. It is because of all baggage that comes with it. Let me just say that I believe in, and am seeking a loving and protective divine being.

In your post, you have hit a critical notion christians really need to confront. What you have quoted is a literalist reading of the bible that all christians have to grapple with at some time or other. From my observation, those that are able to see past a literal translation usually progress to a more tolerant and broad minded approach to the world. Those who continue to insist on a literal translation, remain mired in a "us-vs-them" world view. No prizes on to guess which group Rony Tan belongs?

Christians can benefit from one beautiful principle that the buddhists have: do not hold on to anything too tightly, and that includes ideas. Translated to christian speak: Always consider the possiblity that our current thought may be somewhat limited. Only God has the entire picture, and is right all the time. For the rest of us, we need to regard our thoughts and beliefs as a "work in progress".

SP

this is slightly off the topic and hope to be enlightened or did i miss some detail?

God created adam and then eve. then they had offsprings cain and abel. how and with whom

did cain and abel had sex to produce offspring? back then there were only 3 men and a woman.

Or is it with animals as "highlighted" by looney tan?

i am not trying to be offensive please!!!!!!!

[Guest hitex]

Hi Hitex, Only God has the entire picture, and is right all the time. For the rest of us, we need to regard our thoughts and beliefs as a "work in progress".

SP

still blur leh

i might as well just believe looney and be condemned

[suckling_pig]

Then live in ignorance, it is bliss afterall.

still blur leh

i might as well just believe looney and be condemned

[cock brand]

Then live in ignorance, it is bliss afterall.

yeah, there are just too many clueless people among us!

Sigh.