Opera appreciations and discussion

Steve5380 · April 6, 2021

On 4/4/2021 at 3:26 AM, heman said:

For St. Mathew's Passion ...the interpretation of Julia Hamari is still my favourite in the alto solo section. Her purity of natural voice ,devoid of over sentimentalism and perfect violin solo accompaniment is sheer joy.

I agree that Julia Hamari is a good alto voice in Bach's St. Matthew's Passion. But I am perfectly content to limit my hearing of the St. Matthew's Passion to its Final Chorus. These days I find the long sacred music of Bach a little fastidious. Instead, I found myself practicing some Chopin Waltzes on the piano around Eastern. Very uplifting

Steve5380 · April 7, 2021

I want to correct my statement of Bach's long sacred music being a little fastidious. This I feel only for long solo singing in Bach's passions and masses. And I really don't care who the soloists are as long as they stay in tune, which they normally do.

I like the mixture of orchestra and chorus, like in the St. Matthew's passion's Opening Chorus:

This gives me a nostalgic atmosphere of a Catholic celebration with all its pomp and color. I pity the worshippers of austere Protestant churches without any statues or decorations. I pity the ones in charismatic churches where they only hear a begging slick pastor, some pop music, some noisy attendants in trances, and things like that.

But I am thankful to the Anglican Church in Europe. So much they did for the arts, like sacred music. Their services are not too different from the Catholic, and some of their churches are spectacular.

wilfgene · April 8, 2021

4 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

I want to correct my statement of Bach's long sacred music being a little fastidious. This I feel only for long solo singing in Bach's passions and masses. And I really don't care who the soloists are as long as they stay in tune, which they normally do.

I like the mixture of orchestra and chorus, like in the St. Matthew's passion's Opening Chorus:

This gives me a nostalgic atmosphere of a Catholic celebration with all its pomp and color. I pity the worshippers of austere Protestant churches without any statues or decorations. I pity the ones in charismatic churches where they only hear a begging slick pastor, some pop music, some noisy attendants in trances, and things like that.

But I am thankful to the Anglican Church in Europe. So much they did for the arts, like sacred music. Their services are not too different from the Catholic, and some of their churches are spectacular.

And I have been intrigued by the effect of those gory 'works of art/religion' on the children.

Passion plays are operas too?

Steve5380 · April 8, 2021

5 minutes ago, wilfgene said:

And I have been intrigued by the effect of those gory 'works of art/religion' on the children.

Passion plays are operas too?

I can only speak for myself, and as a child I had never been turned on by the statues and paintings of religious figures in skimpy or no clothes. Maybe the smell of incense is a demotivator?

About the latest posts with Passion plays here, you should consult with @singalion, who brought them together with symphonies into the thread. Also @heman didn't seem to object. You could also seek the advice of @InBangkok, who has not left the forum. I have no problems whatsoever with good classical music anywhere, and if it includes singing, it should be close enough to "opera" to be welcomed here, not only by me.

singalion · April 8, 2021

On 4/7/2021 at 6:47 AM, Steve5380 said:

I agree that Julia Hamari is a good alto voice in Bach's St. Matthew's Passion. But I am perfectly content to limit my hearing of the St. Matthew's Passion to its Final Chorus. These days I find the long sacred music of Bach a little fastidious. Instead, I found myself practicing some Chopin Waltzes on the piano around Eastern. Very uplifting

Sure can do cherry picking on what you hear.

It is like taking Adagietto out of Mahler's 5th symphony.

But in my view you destroy the sequence and destroy the master piece. Symphonies are not like pop/rock records with different beats or totally different styles in one record. Nobody would ever think or playing symphonies in random sequence.

Symphonies should be listened in their totality and complete sequence.

You don't cut out the lilies out of Monet's paintings too or do you?

singalion · April 8, 2021

10 hours ago, wilfgene said:

And I have been intrigued by the effect of those gory 'works of art/religion' on the children.

Passion plays are operas too?

It did not fit into Instrumental music, as there is singing involved.

I don't think we need another thread for classical music. Previously, other concerts had been discussed here and not just opera in restricted terms.

If there is any thread on classical music, then I m not aware.

Most of this "sacred" music was written and performed in those days for the King's and Emperors or they commissioned it from the composing superstars.

If I am an annoyance to this thread, then I will stay silent in future.

I thought you love classical music.

Opera is classical type of music joined to a play.

Steve5380 · April 8, 2021

3 hours ago, singalion said:

Sure can do cherry picking on what you hear.

It is like taking Adagietto out of Mahler's 5th symphony.

But in my view you destroy the sequence and destroy the master piece. Symphonies are not like pop/rock records with different beats or totally different styles in one record. Nobody would ever think or playing symphonies in random sequence.

Symphonies should be listened in their totality and complete sequence.

You don't cut out the lilies out of Monet's paintings too or do you?

Nonsense! Absolute, complete NONSENSE.

Both a performer and a listener or recorded music can "cherry pick" in a composition as much as he wants, without any "destroying" or disrespect for the most valuable musical masterpieces.

Symphonies, sonatas, concertos, masses, oratorios don't have to be perfectly coherent compilations. This is totally false. Different "movements" of these works can have different tonalities, mayor, minor intermixed, their tempos can be different. Some variations also occur within the movements themselves. Operas could be exceptions, since it is desirable that the libretto is homogeneous and interrelated, although this does not need to translate into the music. What PROVES that professional musicians "cherry pick" from masterworks are the recitals of OPERA ARIAS, sometimes performed stand-alone by a singer in important concerts.

But nothing prevents you for imposing arbitrary restrictions on YOURSELF. Like walking streets towards ascending numbers on the left side, and descending numbers on the right side. Or a rule to always put your right shoe on first, right leg into your pants first, etc.

3 hours ago, singalion said:

It did not fit into Instrumental music, as there is singing involved.

I don't think we need another thread for classical music. Previously, other concerts had been discussed here and not just opera in restricted terms.

If there is any thread on classical music, then I m not aware.

Most of this "sacred" music was written and performed in those days for the King's and Emperors or they commissioned it from the composing superstars.

If I am an annoyance to this thread, then I will stay silent in future.

I thought you love classical music.

Opera is classical type of music joined to a play.

You should not consider yourself an annoyance to ANY thread. It is up to others to be annoyed by you, and then it is their choice to not read your posts or disappear from BW.

I agree with you that Opera is simply classical (or serious) music joined to a play. And the actors in the play are singers, so the music must be synchronized with the singing, that is, with the play.

Any kind of music could fit in a thread named "Instrumental Music", since the voice is our own precious instrument. And in any case, all the vocal music we post has the singing accompanied with an instrument. I haven't seen here anything that is a singing "solo". (what sings "solo" is the violin playing the Paganini caprices or Bach's partitas, and of course much of the music for piano solo)

wilfgene · April 8, 2021

3 hours ago, singalion said:

If I am an annoyance to this thread, then I will stay silent in future.

I thought you love classical music.

Opera is classical type of music joined to a play.

?

singalion · April 9, 2021

11 hours ago, wilfgene said:

?

what problems do you have?

Could have written a PM.

Edited April 9, 2021 by singalion

singalion · April 9, 2021

11 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

Nonsense! Absolute, complete NONSENSE.

Both a performer and a listener or recorded music can "cherry pick" in a composition as much as he wants, without any "destroying" or disrespect for the most valuable musical masterpieces.

Symphonies, sonatas, concertos, masses, oratorios don't have to be perfectly coherent compilations. This is totally false. Different "movements" of these works can have different tonalities, mayor, minor intermixed, their tempos can be different. Some variations also occur within the movements themselves. Operas could be exceptions, since it is desirable that the libretto is homogeneous and interrelated, although this does not need to translate into the music. What PROVES that professional musicians "cherry pick" from masterworks are the recitals of OPERA ARIAS, sometimes performed stand-alone by a singer in important concerts.

But nothing prevents you for imposing arbitrary restrictions on YOURSELF. Like walking streets towards ascending numbers on the left side, and descending numbers on the right side. Or a rule to always put your right shoe on first, right leg into your pants first, etc.

Beware of using such emphasis as "Nonsense" please.

I was educated at a "classical" school with a broad education, covering Latin, music and even all different sciences such as Maths, Chemistry, Physics and Arts, not forgetting languages, history etc. Comprehensive education. As someone who claims having much intellect on a different thread (not talking about me here) I would never approach any other with starting words such as "Nonsense" or Absolute Nonsense, maybe you dipped a bit too deep into ABSOLUTE Vodka when you wrote this. Let's stay cultured. Please! Thanks.

While at home you can do what you want and switch your CD player to Random play of any symphony (what you can't with a record player) at your pleasure, nobody would do this in any performance.

All classical composers build up their music into a sequence which is a must when it is performed. There are parts and breaks in between. But the symphony builds up from the first part up to the last.

Just take Beethoven's Pastorale (6th Symphony if you're not aware) .

Beethoven had a clear sequence on the Symphony. The play has to be performed in the given sequence, otherwise it doesn't make sense.

That is his masterpiece. he composed it this way.

And so far I can look back every conductor after Beethoven has performed it exactly in the given sequence:

I.	Erwachen heiterer Empfindungen bei der Ankunft auf dem Lande	Allegro ma non troppo
II.	Szene am Bach	Andante molto moto
III.	Lustiges Zusammensein der Landleute	Allegro (Scherzo) In tempo d'Allegro (Trio)
IV.	Gewitter, Sturm	Allegro
V.	Hirtengesang. Frohe und dankbare Gefühle nach dem Sturm	Allegretto

Compare it with a book. You don't read chapter 5 first and then go to chapter 3 , read the last chapter and read the first chapter at the end.

The same you can say on a theater play, nobody would change the parts of Waiting for Godot and start with the last scene, then the third followed by the 5th and then the first.

Did you see any performance or recording of Beethoven's Pastorale symphony by any conductor (or any other symphony or classical music piece) which has been played or performed in a different sequence?

Say starting with Gewitter (Allegro), then Szene am Bach (Andante molto moto), followed by Hirtengesang. Frohe und dankbare Gefühle nach dem Sturm (Allegretto), then Erwachen heiterer Empfindungen bei der Ankunft auf dem Lande (Allegro ma non troppo).

Nobody does that, at least I never saw any conductor who changed the sequence of the symphony and for sure never Beethoven when he performed his piece of art.

Operas are like books or Theater plays, they have a first part, second etc. You can't change the sequence otherwise you destroy the story. Opera is a sort of Theater with music. Nobody would play Verdi's La Traviata with the Third Act first, following by the second and then finish with the first Act. NOBODY.

On the other hand, you can play Rolling Stones' Out of our Heads record in a sequence as you may wish and change the individual songs at your pleasure. You can play I can't get no Satisfaction first, then Mercy Merci, then Play with Fire etc etc. Nobody bothers and Rolling Stones wouldn't mind and might even have performed it in different sequences as they may wish.

I only agree certain conductors laid more importance, tone or accentuation on certain instruments or preferred to play music in a different speed. Karajan has been famous for rushing through most Symphonies and playing many parts extremely faster compared to other conductors and on some parts the louder parts to more loudness. But still he never changed the parts or cherry picked on the sequence of the parts.

And yes, some conductors will play some snippets like some Piano pieces from Chopin, Liszt, Ravel etc, but actually this is accorded to either a certain famous pianist/violinist/musician and most often intended to attract audience not familiar with classical music to the concert halls. This is more on marketing for concert halls, such as "Hillary Hahn playing the five most intensive piano pieces...".

However Conductors would never change the sequence of a symphony and cherry pick. never!

So, according to you I was talking nonsense?

I would appreciate if you may tone down a bit on your responses.

I don't think I said anything inaccurate and surely it did not amount to "absolute complete nonsense".

My post did not deserve any such harsh words.

wilfgene · April 9, 2021

21 hours ago, singalion said:

It did not fit into Instrumental music, as there is singing involved.

I don't think we need another thread for classical music. Previously, other concerts had been discussed here and not just opera in restricted terms.

If there is any thread on classical music, then I m not aware.

Most of this "sacred" music was written and performed in those days for the King's and Emperors or they commissioned it from the composing superstars.

If I am an annoyance to this thread, then I will stay silent in future.

I thought you love classical music.

Opera is classical type of music joined to a play.

17 hours ago, wilfgene said:

?

6 hours ago, singalion said:

what problems do you have?

Could have written a PM.

My problems, I assume, are as followed.

1. I lack a a study of FULL BODY OF WORKS. Only recently realized the bird-feed lady in Home Alone 2 is a homage to Mary Poppins.

2. I neither know nor feel how you find me finding you an annoyance.

3. I fail to knock into your head that I skip only posts by guest guest and why?.

4. I am betting with you that if ever a costume party for opera queens in Singapore is to be held, almost everybody will be dressed up as Queen of Night.

For a bottle of cheap Mao-Tai, after you have got over your current personal predicament.

By the way, has it occurred to you that there are those professional trolls?

Edited April 9, 2021 by wilfgene

Steve5380 · April 9, 2021

22 hours ago, singalion said:

Beware of using such emphasis as "Nonsense" please.

I was educated at a "classical" school with a broad education, covering Latin, music and even all different sciences such as Maths, Chemistry, Physics and Arts, not forgetting languages, history etc. Comprehensive education. As someone who claims having much intellect on a different thread (not talking about me here) I would never approach any other with starting words such as "Nonsense" or Absolute Nonsense, maybe you dipped a bit too deep into ABSOLUTE Vodka when you wrote this. Let's stay cultured. Please! Thanks.

You were fortunate to receive such a "classical" education. Good education is necessary, although not sufficient.

About the word 'Nonsense', I agree with an opinion on the Internet:

"Nonsense" is not used for cursing. As has been stated before, it is a more polite word and would be used (and preferred) as an alternative to cursing. ... As for "foolish", it is SUCH a mild word that anyone who is offended by it is nought but a prissy weakling.Jul 12, 2004

And this word is correct English.

22 hours ago, singalion said:

All classical composers build up their music into a sequence which is a must when it is performed. There are parts and breaks in between. But the symphony builds up from the first part up to the last.

Just take Beethoven's Pastorale (6th Symphony if you're not aware) .

Beethoven had a clear sequence on the Symphony. The play has to be performed in the given sequence, otherwise it doesn't make sense.

That is his masterpiece. he composed it this way.

And so far I can look back every conductor after Beethoven has performed it exactly in the given sequence:

I. Erwachen heiterer Empfindungen bei der Ankunft auf dem Lande Allegro ma non troppo

II. Szene am Bach Andante molto moto

III. Lustiges Zusammensein der Landleute Allegro (Scherzo)
In tempo d'Allegro (Trio)

IV. Gewitter, Sturm Allegro

V. Hirtengesang. Frohe und dankbare Gefühle nach dem Sturm Allegretto

"is a must when it is performed"? This statement is ~~absolute Nonsense!~~ unfounded. Go to YouTube where there are countless videos of individual movements of symphonies, even posted by the symphony orchestras themselves. And if you want to argue that a musical video is not a "performance", there are countless performances in concert halls of OVERTURES, PRELUDES to long musical works which are performed stand-alone.

When I was a little boy a neighboring girl taught me to play Mozart's Rondo Alla Turca. I loved this piece so much. Since then I love to play in the scale of A Major, my fingers naturally seek the three sharps. Only decades later I learned to play the whole Sonata No. 11 in A Major K. 331.

In the composition which gave rise to this conversation, Bach's St. Matthew Passion, the Final Chorus stands perfectly well by itself. There is no need to hear the long sacred singing that precedes it. And if I have joyful and thankful feelings after the storm and want to listen to ONLY the Pastorale's 5th movement, Beethoven would have never taken offense in this.

.

Edited April 10, 2021 by Steve5380

Steve5380 · April 9, 2021

12 hours ago, wilfgene said:

My problems, I assume, are as followed.

I wish that, by the Grace of God, you will never have bigger problems than those.

.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Steve5380

InBangkok · April 10, 2021

!

Edited April 10, 2021 by InBangkok

heman · April 10, 2021

This thread is now becoming a THIRD WORLD WAR. From its very lively and benign beginning it now swells into an ungentlemanly quarrelsome arena. Please do us all a favour here to stop this fight.

singalion · April 10, 2021

2 hours ago, heman said:

This thread is now becoming a THIRD WORLD WAR. From its very lively and benign beginning it now swells into an ungentlemanly quarrelsome arena. Please do us all a favour here to stop this fight.

I can smell the gun powder already.

Unfortunately, I left my small tanks and my knight toys and other artillery, not to forget the American Indian comics in boxes at my parent's home and can't retrieve them now.

I tried my best to revive this thread.

Currently, running through shops in Singapore trying to buy some bow and arrows... See you later....

Edited April 10, 2021 by singalion

singalion · April 10, 2021

@InBangkok

We want your contribution here!

Learn to ignore the posts that don't belong into the thread or any "nonsense" that was written into the thread.

Best reaction would be not to react or just with a tiny comment.

It must not get so personal.

Please don't be a chicken and run away. As a gay you learnt to have a thicker skin.

We can't be friends with everyone here!

Take it easy.

We love your contribution and thread!

♥️

Steve5380 · April 10, 2021

5 hours ago, heman said:

This thread is now becoming a THIRD WORLD WAR. From its very lively and benign beginning it now swells into an ungentlemanly quarrelsome arena. Please do us all a favour here to stop this fight.

LOL! More than a third WORLD WAR it could be a THIRD-WORLD war for its pettiness. Yes, it started benign, until some militants in their rigor objected to the type of music I had posted here, in their opinion it was not enough "Opera". Since I didn't accept those militaristic objections, tempers escalated around the same time the hordes of evil invaded the US Capitol. Civility took a second place and Moderators had to intervene. Once the air cleared, I found this thread abandoned by the TS and other fighters. After a long time finally I rescued it from the third page (!) of listings of threads in this forum. Since then, I kept it existed peacefully, without any reasons to change from here.

I don't see a reason to declare a WAR here just because some poster may object to me listening to the St. Matthews Passion's Final Chorus independent of all the long singing that precedes it. Here my rationale is simple: who should have jurisdiction over my ears but me? If I want to hear the 'Gewitter" in Beethoven's 6th backwards, who am I hurting with this?

So please, don't even make insinuations of a war going on here, because there is no such. We should continue discussing our musical ideas in harmony (and melody).

InBangkok · April 11, 2021

10 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

LOL! More than a third WORLD WAR it could be a THIRD-WORLD war for its pettiness. Yes, it started benign, until some militants in their rigor objected to the type of music I had posted here, in their opinion it was not enough "Opera". Since I didn't accept those militaristic objections, tempers escalated around the same time the hordes of evil invaded the US Capitol. Civility took a second place and Moderators had to intervene. Once the air cleared, I found this thread abandoned by the TS and other fighters. After a long time finally I rescued it from the third page (!) of listings of threads in this forum. Since then, I kept it existed peacefully, without any reasons to change from here.

I don't see a reason to declare a WAR here just because some poster may object to me listening to the St. Matthews Passion's Final Chorus independent of all the long singing that precedes it. Here my rationale is simple: who should have jurisdiction over my ears but me? If I want to hear the 'Gewitter" in Beethoven's 6th backwards, who am I hurting with this?

So please, don't even make insinuations of a war going on here, because there is no such. We should continue discussing our musical ideas in harmony (and melody).

Despite two formal requests to delete my membership, I find this morning that I remain a member. Since that is the case, let me point out that @Steve5380's post is largely NONSENSE!

"some militants in their rigor objected to the type of music I had posted here"

Oh really? (1) Your posts had absolutely nothing to do with performances of opera. From the moment you started posting in this thread, you attempted to hijack it with orchestral music, solo music and non-operatic dance. These have absolutely nothing to do with 'live' opera., although in your weird and wonderful way you attempted to justify them. Heck! You even compared the goings on in a male sauna to a live opera performance! Does any poster here seriously believe any of that NONSENSE?

(2) You certainly did not rescue this thread! On page 3 alone there are 25 posts by other members, including the last by the TS. Seems your mind is going because - please remember - it was I who rescued your thread on Instrumental Music after it had had just 2 posts in one year. Do not think you are the white knight here. After all, you really don't like opera that much. You have told us you pay virtually no attention to the words. Your interest is in beautiful music. Opera is a marriage of words and music. Composers take a libretto and then fashion music around it. You must be thinking about contemporary musicals composers. People like Andrew Lloyd Webber write the music first and then have lyrics fitted to them. Opera is the other way around.

"Moderators had to intervene"

I do not know why you continue to spout NONSENSE. The Moderators have never once had to intervene on this thread. Please provide proof of this unfounded allegation. You are confused because it was you who wrote to the moderators objecting to my calling your posts NONSENSE in a totally separate thread in the main forum - not here! Yet in a reply a few posts ago to @singalion you write "Nonsense! Absolute, complete NONSENSE." Talk about double standards!

"Since then, I kept it existed peacefully, without any reasons to change from here."

Your memory again deserts you. Read back the pages of this thread. 'YOU KEPT IT EXISTED[sic]?" Apart from the bad English, that is NONSENSE! You kept it existed [sic] because all the time you argued about what constitutes an opera performance. From someone who admitted the last live opera performance he saw was Die Zauberflote more than 25 years ago, you are hardly one to talk about attending live opera - the subject on which other posters have made pertinent and often instructive comments.

"Here my rationale is simple"

It's always YOUR rationale. The views of others here you mostly dismiss, sometimes in disgraceful terms - as in your comparison with activities in a gay sauna with a live opera performance. You have admitted it. You don't like live performances. You do not see any reason why you should pay money to see a live performance. You prefer to sit in your lonely room, eating your pizzas and watching two dimensional videos. Great! That's what gives you your kicks. But perhaps you might realise once in a while that you are one individual in a sea of many millions of opera lovers around the world. If you just got out of your comfy Herman Miller chair and met some others in Houston with a true love of opera, you might change your mind. But you elect to be alone in your house. Again, your choice. But when one person spends so much time alone without intellectual interaction with others on any subject, one's views - on whatever subject - tend to become set in stone. Tolerance of the views of others becomes less.

"Please Come Back"

That was the title of the first of two PMs you sent to me after I thought I had originally left BW. You begged me to return. Let me quote a little from what you then added -

"You have my word that I will not antagonize you again but instead be cooperative with your postings. You have so much to contribute to the audience of BW . . . My unfortunate lack of empathy of the past does not negate the fact that we have much in common in our ideology. Our future conversations will be amicable and pleasurable, I promise . . . I am sorry that I have influenced them [your actions] so negatively . . . I won't interfere with you but eventually post there exclusively about opera."

Hypocrite! So now I am one of what you call the "militants' whose "militaristic objections" led to a lack of "civility". Once the Moderators finally act on my request to cease being a member, you will not need to put up with me any more. Can you even understand why I did not believe one word of what you said in those PMs? Because almost everything you have posted in this thread is about YOU! In talking about my experiences of live opera performances, you complained that I was "boasting about the elite high class places you visit." You even called my posts "a pile of crap."

In closing, I apologise most sincerely to other posters on this particular thread. I happen to adore opera and travel to many places to see performances that interest me. When I saw this thread, I was delighted if only because I felt with my knowledge and background there would be ways in which I could contribute meaningfully. I wrote about a lot of issues that were not performance related in themselves - the series about the deaths of personalities in the opera world, for example. If you will kindly take the trouble to read back the postings on this forum, I hope you will understand why I can no longer participate. And if @Steve5380takes his militaristic approach in a reply to this post, I will respond, but only if the moderators have not acted upon my request to finally cease being a member.

Steve5380 · April 11, 2021

Dear @InBangkok, I have to confess that I took the reading of your long post about me with calm surprise. Your views expressed in your post are very different from mine. I judge myself positively and I find enough justification of my actions here in this and other threads about music (and also in my life in general). And I didn't expect that you have still such a big chip on your shoulder.

I am not angered at all, I don't feel offended by what you wrote about me and I won't argue contradicting it. This is what I promised at the time when I wrote "I will not antagonize you again". What I do is feel sorry that you found so much that angered you, and that you cannot let go of it even after several months have passed.

If you want to please other posters in this thread, why don't you forget about all my defects and simply keep posting about your beloved Opera. As I promised, I won't interfere with you.

Don't pay any attention to my mentioning "militants" and "militaristic objections". I didn't mention you by name, and this was in response to some unexpected post here talking of "war". If you read objectively you will understand how my response fits well. I have responded to the insinuation of "war" by discouraging it as nothing positive to bring up.

One curiosity I have left. Why you need the Moderators to delete your membership? Won't all your posts disappear with this? You can continue with your membership indefinitely, just without posting. And you can ignore any PMs sent to you.

.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Steve5380

Steve5380 · April 11, 2021

18 hours ago, heman said:

This thread is now becoming a THIRD WORLD WAR. From its very lively and benign beginning it now swells into an ungentlemanly quarrelsome arena. Please do us all a favour here to stop this fight.

You realize that your post bringing up WAR has precipitated some very hostile posts? Isn't this contrary to your desire to avoid fights? And it seems to have forced @singalion to run throughout Singapore to buy weapons...

InBangkok · April 11, 2021

2 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

You realize that your post bringing up WAR has precipitated some very hostile posts? Isn't this contrary to your desire to avoid fights? And it seems to have forced @singalion to run throughout Singapore to buy weapons...

With respect, that is unfair on @heman. I happily acknowledge the fault is mine and apologise to him. You will note above a post of mine with merely an "!". That was originally a long post, roughly along the same lines as the one I wrote today. On reflection and taking into account various opinions, I agreed that the gist of at least some of the content was unfair. I therefore decided to delete it but you cannot leave a post blank! Hence merely the "!" Unfortunately @hemanand @singalionhad already replied by then. Apologies to both and to @Steve5380who clearly was unaware of the background.

2 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

(1) If you want to please other posters in this thread, why don't you forget about all my defects and simply keep posting about your beloved Opera. As I promised, I won't interfere with you . . .

(2) One curiosity I have left. Why you need the Moderators to delete your membership? Won't all your posts disappear with this? You can continue with your membership indefinitely, just without posting. And you can ignore any PMs sent to you.

I think you are perfectly well aware of the nonsense (that word again) you have hurled at me in the past and occasionally some other posters. Even putting that aside, you have made it perfectly clear in post after post after post that you like youtube video opera. You do not attend live performances and see little point in them other then providing performances which can later appear on youtube. I get that. I really do. What I do not get at all is your view that "western opera", the term used by the OP, can include anything other than staged performances of vocal music set to libretti usually with an orchestra. It has nothing to do with symphonic music, nothing to do with choral music, nothing to do with piano music etc. Yet when you make statements like that, you expect everyone - everyone - to follow your view. And you go on and on and on about it. The point of this thread was perfectly clear. The OP loved opera and had "seen lots of productions in my life." He even motioned that he sang in Lohengrin under the excellent conductor Andris Nelsons.

If this thread was to remain on the subject of live performances of opera or occasional performances of recent productions filmed for DVD or even recorded on CD, then I would happily wish to contribute. But why should you hijack a thread and all your posts be about youtube? The thread you started Instrumental Music 2 makes it clear in the very first post that youtube is your thing. Great! You made it very clear. This thread, on the other hand, had an active discussion about opera and various aspects of live opera (including the shape of traditional opera houses) until you came along and wrote this, the first words in your first post -

"While I am not much interested in the scene of an opera, the stage for unattractive singers in costumes to walk around and sing the words from some usually very dumb librettos, I like the spectacle of dance, of ballet."

So from your very, very first words, you made it clear you have little interest in western opera as the rest of the world know it. Yet you then thrust down everyone's gullet an entire series of posts as to why YOU are right and everyone else is wrong. In other words, with those first posts you hijacked the thread to steer it along the lines YOU wanted. So now you can talk all you want about your beloved youtube without my constantly trying to get you back at least somewhere near the actual subject. Why you don't start another thread on youtube opera totally beats me, unless you have this near maniacal desire always to upend another's thread and always to be unequivocally right. So be it.

Whether my posts stay or vanish into the air matters not in the slightest to me.

singalion · April 11, 2021

22 hours ago, singalion said:

I can smell the gun powder already.

Unfortunately, I left my small tanks and my knight toys and other artillery, not to forget the American Indian comics in boxes at my parent's home and can't retrieve them now.

I tried my best to revive this thread.

Currently, running through shops in Singapore trying to buy some bow and arrows... See you later....

Babes, I was joking.

Hope you all didn't get it wrong!

Love, Peace, Harmony and Happiness!

singalion · April 11, 2021

7 hours ago, InBangkok said:

Despite two formal requests to delete my membership, I find this morning that I remain a member. Since that is the case, let me point out that @Steve5380's post is largely NONSENSE!

"some militants in their rigor objected to the type of music I had posted here"

Oh really? (1) Your posts had absolutely nothing to do with performances of opera. From the moment you started posting in this thread, you attempted to hijack it with orchestral music, solo music and non-operatic dance. These have absolutely nothing to do with 'live' opera., although in your weird and wonderful way you attempted to justify them. Heck! You even compared the goings on in a male sauna to a live opera performance! Does any poster here seriously believe any of that NONSENSE?

(2) You certainly did not rescue this thread! On page 3 alone there are 25 posts by other members, including the last by the TS. Seems your mind is going because - please remember - it was I who rescued your thread on Instrumental Music after it had had just 2 posts in one year. Do not think you are the white knight here. After all, you really don't like opera that much. You have told us you pay virtually no attention to the words. Your interest is in beautiful music. Opera is a marriage of words and music. Composers take a libretto and then fashion music around it. You must be thinking about contemporary musicals composers. People like Andrew Lloyd Webber write the music first and then have lyrics fitted to them. Opera is the other way around.

"Moderators had to intervene"

I do not know why you continue to spout NONSENSE. The Moderators have never once had to intervene on this thread. Please provide proof of this unfounded allegation. You are confused because it was you who wrote to the moderators objecting to my calling your posts NONSENSE in a totally separate thread in the main forum - not here! Yet in a reply a few posts ago to @singalion you write "Nonsense! Absolute, complete NONSENSE." Talk about double standards!

"Since then, I kept it existed peacefully, without any reasons to change from here."

Your memory again deserts you. Read back the pages of this thread. 'YOU KEPT IT EXISTED[sic]?" Apart from the bad English, that is NONSENSE! You kept it existed [sic] because all the time you argued about what constitutes an opera performance. From someone who admitted the last live opera performance he saw was Die Zauberflote more than 25 years ago, you are hardly one to talk about attending live opera - the subject on which other posters have made pertinent and often instructive comments.

"Here my rationale is simple"

It's always YOUR rationale. The views of others here you mostly dismiss, sometimes in disgraceful terms - as in your comparison with activities in a gay sauna with a live opera performance. You have admitted it. You don't like live performances. You do not see any reason why you should pay money to see a live performance. You prefer to sit in your lonely room, eating your pizzas and watching two dimensional videos. Great! That's what gives you your kicks. But perhaps you might realise once in a while that you are one individual in a sea of many millions of opera lovers around the world. If you just got out of your comfy Herman Miller chair and met some others in Houston with a true love of opera, you might change your mind. But you elect to be alone in your house. Again, your choice. But when one person spends so much time alone without intellectual interaction with others on any subject, one's views - on whatever subject - tend to become set in stone. Tolerance of the views of others becomes less.

"Please Come Back"

That was the title of the first of two PMs you sent to me after I thought I had originally left BW. You begged me to return. Let me quote a little from what you then added -

"You have my word that I will not antagonize you again but instead be cooperative with your postings. You have so much to contribute to the audience of BW . . . My unfortunate lack of empathy of the past does not negate the fact that we have much in common in our ideology. Our future conversations will be amicable and pleasurable, I promise . . . I am sorry that I have influenced them [your actions] so negatively . . . I won't interfere with you but eventually post there exclusively about opera."

Hypocrite! So now I am one of what you call the "militants' whose "militaristic objections" led to a lack of "civility". Once the Moderators finally act on my request to cease being a member, you will not need to put up with me any more. Can you even understand why I did not believe one word of what you said in those PMs? Because almost everything you have posted in this thread is about YOU! In talking about my experiences of live opera performances, you complained that I was "boasting about the elite high class places you visit." You even called my posts "a pile of crap."

In closing, I apologise most sincerely to other posters on this particular thread. I happen to adore opera and travel to many places to see performances that interest me. When I saw this thread, I was delighted if only because I felt with my knowledge and background there would be ways in which I could contribute meaningfully. I wrote about a lot of issues that were not performance related in themselves - the series about the deaths of personalities in the opera world, for example. If you will kindly take the trouble to read back the postings on this forum, I hope you will understand why I can no longer participate. And if @Steve5380takes his militaristic approach in a reply to this post, I will respond, but only if the moderators have not acted upon my request to finally cease being a member.

singalion · April 11, 2021

On 4/10/2021 at 1:56 PM, InBangkok said:

!

don't always delete your posts.

There was nothing wrong.

It was good to have posted it.

singalion · April 11, 2021

Dear @InBangkok
don't deepen the fights or differences, I beg you to focus on your opera.

Steve will never acknowledge he was wrong or did a mistake, but he will defend himself up to his last breath, trust me.

Even if 25,000 members will tell him he was wrong, he won't give in.

It's not worth to fight on!

Focus on your music, it's much more worth and brings joy to our community.

Even a good friend of mine who listens exclusively to Canto pop confessed me just some month ago your thread enticed him to explore opera.

See your outreach!

Do us a favour, post about operas and make people happier or give them new avenues for happiness.

This is much more important and worthwhile!

Thanks.

No need to delete your posts, leave them as evidence.

I will react to Steve in a different post or by private message.

wilfgene · April 11, 2021

11 minutes ago, singalion said:

Dear @InBangkok
don't deepen the fights or differences, I beg you to focus on your opera.

Steve will never acknowledge he was wrong or did a mistake, but he will defend himself up to his last breath, trust me.

Even if 25,000 members will tell him he was wrong, he won't give in.

It's not worth to fight on!

Focus on your music, it's much more worth and brings joy to our community.

Even a good friend of mine who listens exclusively to Canto pop confessed me just some month ago your thread enticed him to explore opera.

See your outreach!

Do us a favour, post about operas and make people happier or give them new avenues for happiness.

This is much more important and worthwhile!

Thanks.

No need to delete your posts, leave them as evidence.

I will react to Steve in a different post or by private message.

He might have just remembered he called me nonsense when I pointed out he was insinuating the level of proficiency of the English language here was not High, during Steve's grammar Nazi phrase.

Steve5380 · April 11, 2021

5 hours ago, singalion said:

Babes, I was joking.

Hope you all didn't get it wrong!

Love, Peace, Harmony and Happiness!

I know you were joking. I was joking too

"Love, Peace, Harmony and Happiness!" and MELODY, plenty of good MELODY.

5 hours ago, singalion said:

don't always delete your posts.

There was nothing wrong.

It was good to have posted it.

It is a pity that a post is deleted, especially after the work put into writing such a long post.

Steve5380 · April 11, 2021

12 hours ago, InBangkok said:

The OP loved opera and had "seen lots of productions in my life." He even motioned that he sang in Lohengrin under the excellent conductor Andris Nelsons.

Lohengrin... this reminds one of Richard Wagner... a person with controversial character, to the point that some people made such a big deal of his dislike of Jews that they rejected the genius of his music, music that comes to mind here for its cultivation of the tragic! Gotterdammerung! Do things need to end in “Götterdämmerung” ? there are no Gods here, just common mortals who enjoy music, and should be able to share it. Even tragic music can be beautiful:

But... isn't life too precious and short to focus so much on tragedy?

Hopefully this thread continues in peace and harmony, all the wrongs forgiven and forgotten, only having the joint interest in discovering new musical treasures, or replaying the past ones that are good examples, like this one:

This opera at its end sends a strong message, by the Pasha forgiving the foreigners instead of putting them to death. A message sent by Mozart 239 years ago, an example to follow Bassa Selim and let this thread sail through the calm waters of music enjoyment

Edited April 11, 2021 by Steve5380

Steve5380 · April 11, 2021

8 hours ago, singalion said:

Dear @InBangkok
don't deepen the fights or differences, I beg you to focus on your opera.

Steve will never acknowledge he was wrong or did a mistake, but he will defend himself up to his last breath, trust me.

Hopefully Steve won't have to be defending himself up to his last breath, but only until attacks end. In any case, it may be 20 more years for his last breath, a waste of time to wait for, that could be dedicated to more positive things.

.

Edited April 11, 2021 by Steve5380

InBangkok · April 12, 2021

11 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

Hopefully Steve won't have to be defending himself up to his last breath, but only until attacks end

And what a waste of time that would be! For "Steve" is such a cantankerous, set-in-his-ways, old man that he regards every contrary view as an attack, one that his warped mind feels has to be defended vigorously. And even when, from the single room in which he spends his life with its TVs and computers and pianos which in his only view of our beautiful world, he has beaten down every single poster who disagrees with him, he calls his opponents "militants". We all know he HAS to believe he is right. Why such a childish and arrogant attitude, I really have no idea. Clearly he is sad and lonely. Get him to admit that? Good luck! For he projects himself as the perfect man. He writes perfect English (except when he is wrong and even then he tries to wriggle snakelike out of the allegation) and proclaims that Chinese written in this forum is wrong because he cannot understand it. He eats the perfect longevity food. For the good of his teeth, he even tapes his mouth at night. All hail, "Steve" the great panjandrum!

Perhaps even at his advanced age he might learn the meaning of humility, of comradeship, of collegiality, of understanding and accepting that others can have different points of view without their being a personal attack on him, or that backing down from a position when having a serious discussion is not a sign of weakness.

Perhaps, too, he should take a long look in the metaphorical mirror on his wall. He would see Donald Trump looking back at him, for it is these precise Trumpian tactics that he adopts time after time after time in thread after thread after thread. He has consistently done so here.

17 hours ago, singalion said:

Dear @InBangkok. . .
Even a good friend of mine who listens exclusively to Canto pop confessed me just some month ago your thread enticed him to explore opera.

See your outreach!

Do us a favour, post about operas and make people happier or give them new avenues for happiness.

This is much more important and worthwhile!

That is one of the nicest compliments anyone as paid me for a very long time. Thank you so much. After much thought, I regret I cannot.

I spend much of my career in people-oriented businesses. I deal with a variety of personalities and these include civil servants and occasionally politicians. I carefully assess those I have to work with. I know how to frame and argue proposals to get the programmes I feel are right for the companies I work for through the bureacracy. There are proposals which are accepted and occasionally those which are not. Usually I can tell which way the discussion is going and will withdraw a proposal to reframe it for a later agendum. In the meantime, I lobby those who will help when that time comes. Sometimes that is successful; sometimes not. That is just the way of the world.

I cannot do that in any discussion with "Steve". Whatever "Steve" says in these fora or in PMs is just a bluff or a lie as long as he gets his way. I joined BW for enjoyment, especially once this thread started. I have really enjoyed contributing to it. But I have come to loathe "Steve". I'm sorry to say it because I am perfectly well aware that in chat rooms there will always be the poseurs, the jerks, the attention grabbers, the trolls and so on. That's just the way it is. "Steve" is a different kind of chat room animal. He sees himself as the all-powerful, all-knowing, always correct guru whose word is its own peculiar kind of law. There is no lobbying that will work with "Steve". There is no counter argument that he will accept. "Opera" and "Opera Performances" will always be in "Steve's" eyes whatever it is "Steve" wants them to mean. Since he never attends opera performances (for more than 25 years) and since his knowledge of the operatic repertoire is pathetically limited, he merely floods the forum with youtube excerpts from operas he either likes of has just discovered. He even misquotes. The closing scene of Götterdämmerung is not an ending. It is a new beginning, a rebirth. He recently discovered what is for him a new opera. How many Entführung examples has he now flooded the thread with in recent days? Is it not odd that "Steve" said in his early posts he paid no attention at all to the words in an opera? Yet now he is now quoting them!

There is far too much in life to enjoy and to participate in, too many friends to meet to chat over art, concerts, operas, the beautiful colours of the blossoms now blooming in Bangkok, the trips we are planning to other countries when the pandemic is finally controlled and travel restrictions eased. Hopefully I will finally get to the Hindu Kush which I have long wanted to visit and be in awe of that extraordinary part of the Himalayas. When I have spent time here trying to get "Steve" to see some sort of reasonable sense in any discussion, it has increasingly become an exercise in intense frustration. That is not going to change. Frankly, I have not the faintest idea why the Moderators of this Board tolerate his presence here, why they permit such a disruptor who lives on the other side of the world, whose knowledge of Singapore in general - even Asia in general - is so minuscule. But it is their Board and their policy. Once they finally agree to my request to leave, I have no alternative but to do so.

Edited April 12, 2021 by InBangkok

InBangkok · April 12, 2021

Since I have not yet been deleted.

She was arguably the greatest opera diva of all time. Certainly the most famous. She was regularly featured on the front pages of the world's media. Yet how many really know the true story of Maria Callas? That she was discovered as a young singer and studied in Athens with the coloratura soprano Elvira de Hidalgo who had sung earlier in her career with the great tenor Enrico Caruso and the equally great bass Feodor Chaliapin is known.

Joining the Greek National Opera, unlike later sopranos, in her early 20s she sang whatever role they asked her to sing. From lighter bel canto roles to heavy dramatic roles like Turandot, Brunnhilde and Isolde, Callas was up for it. Her vocal timbre was not as beautiful as some, but she brought extraordinary musicianship and phrasing and a special excitement to her performances. During the 1950s she was at the height of her career, the reigning prima donna assoluta at La Scala, Paris, London, New York, Vienna and elsewhere.

She had married a businessman Giovanni Battista Meneghini. Her rivalry with the Italian diva Renata Tebaldi made headlines, even though some thought it more of a publicity stunt. In 1959 she met and fell in love with the Greek shipping magnate Aristotle Onassis overnight. The affair seemed passionate to those who observed it in the media. Both were married to others at the time and both eventually divorced their spouses. Although Callas was desperate to marry Onassis, he was not. When Onassis married Jacqueline Kennedy, the widow of the slain US President John F. Kennedy, in 1968, Callas was beside herself with anger and grief. By this time she had been winding down her opera performances, ceasing altogether in 1985 when she was only 42.

in the early 1970s she made a series of worldwide Farewell Recital Tours. Her legion of fans flocked to them but they were not a success. The Callas magic was on stage. The voice was usually in tatters. Thereafter she retreated to her Paris apartment where she died alone in 1977 aged just 53. It was one of the great tragedies in opera.

As a result of a book about to be published, we know that much of what we thought we knew about Callas was simply not true. Cast A Diva: The Hidden Life of Maria Callas is being published by The History Press on June 1st. Its author, Lyndsy Spence, was given access to three "enormous" collections of her letters, diaries and other materials which have mostly never before been published. Among the revelations -

- her mother was a prostitute during the war and tried to pimp Maria out to Nazi soldiers;

- later her mother blackmailed her to keep her mouth shut about her wartime activities;

- Meneghini controlled her and robbed her - a "louse . . . I was a fool to trust him."

- in one letter she writes of Tebaldi, "She's as nasty and as sly as they come."

- Onassis was violent with her and drugged her, mostly for sex.

The burning unanswered question has always been - could Callas have continued singing opera for another dozen or so years had she looked after her voice much more carefully? The book gives new insight to her health problems. As Spence writes, “I tracked down the neurologist who treated her before her death. Callas suffered from a neuromuscular disorder whose symptoms began in the 1950s, but she was dismissed by doctors as ‘crazy’. It also explains the loss of her singing voice, which cut her career short."

A life full of too much pain, abuse and tragedy.

heman · April 12, 2021

Callas had high temperament on stage and she was the first diva i knew to make opera not a singing affair but acting too. Her Norma and Tosca were phenomenal and second to none in my opinion. However i prefer the voice of Tebaldi. Even Callas herself ever mentioned that she hated her voice and she preferred Tebaldi timbre. Yes her life was full of tragic like the opera she had sang in her life. It was a pity that her repertoire was largely restricted to Italian operas because she could not speak German.

Edited April 12, 2021 by heman

InBangkok · April 12, 2021

1 hour ago, heman said:

Callas had high temperament on stage and she was the first diva i knew to make opera not a singing affair but acting too. Her Norma and Tosca were phenomenal and second to none in my opinion. However i prefer the voice of Tebaldi. Even Callas herself ever mentioned that she hated her voice and she preferred Tebaldi timbre. Yes her life was full of tragic like the opera she had sang in her life. It was a pity that her repertoire was largely restricted to Italian operas because she could not speak German.

I agree that Tebaldi had the more beautiful voice. I never heard either soprano but my uncle attended one of Callas' final Toscas at the Royal Opera. He said her on stage personality was magnetic. He could not take his eyes off her.

I was a bit surprised to read of the neuromuscular disorder she suffered from. I always assumed that the voice left her partly due to her sudden weight loss, partly to her heavy socialising with Onassis but mostly due to her singing a bad mix of too many roles in her early - mid 20s. How many sopranos today would even consider starting their careers with a repertoire consisting of Gioconda, Isolde, Turandot, Elvira in Puritani, Aida, Norma, Abigaille in Nabucco, Kundry and the Walkure Brunnhide? Surely all would regard that as madness.

It reminds me of a number of sopranos who ruined all or parts of their voice with the wrong choice of repertoire. Another Greek Elena Suliotis was at one time seen as a great soprano in the making. She sang with Tebaldi, Ghiaurov, Alfredo Kraus, Domingo, Pavarotti and other such stellar names. Yet soon after her mid-30s she all but disappeared from the operatic firmament. Another was Helga Dernesch who was singing Brunnhildes in her late 20s. Karajan recorded Siegfried and Gotterdammerung with her, having ditched his earlier chosen Brunnhilde, Regine Crespin. She also recorded Isolde and Fidelio with him as well as the Tannhauser Elizabeth with Solti and the Vienna Phil. But before she was 40 she had to take a year off and then return to the stage as a mezzo. The top of her voice was gone.

heman · April 12, 2021

To sing a very dramatic role for a very young soprano is to my opinion pure suicidal for her future operatic career. The voice will definitely be wrecked in a very short time.

To me a budding soprano should always start with Handel, Bach and Mozart where the orchestration is not heavy and the voice is very exposed. Why should there be a hurry to sing verismo and the heavy roles of Richard Strauss' Salome, Elektra and the female roles in De Frau Ohne Schattern ? One needs to respect the vocal cord otherwise once corroded with extreme "screaming" it is not reversible.

Edited April 12, 2021 by heman

heman · April 12, 2021

I had a CD of Callas performance of the very challenging Norma under the EMI label if i am not wrong. Well her voice had passed her prime. She wobbles in quite a number of high notes though her middle registers were wonderful. There were roughness in her voice that irritates me. I only heard it twice before the CD lays dormant in my collection.

heman · April 12, 2021

57 minutes ago, InBangkok said:

Abigaille in Nabucco

This is an extremely difficult role to sing in this Verdi opera. The voice needs literally high jumped from low to extremely high notes and vice versa. Really scary ! Very few vocalists dare to attempt this and most dare not keep it for a long time in their repertoire. This may also apply Mozart's Queen of the Night two formidable arias. The first aria centered around the "normal" range most of the time but the second aria is like walking on a tight rope blind folded to keep the balance straight!

Steve5380 · April 12, 2021

2 hours ago, heman said:

Callas had high temperament on stage and she was the first diva i knew to make opera not a singing affair but acting too. Her Norma and Tosca were phenomenal and second to none in my opinion. However i prefer the voice of Tebaldi. Even Callas herself ever mentioned that she hated her voice and she preferred Tebaldi timbre. Yes her life was full of tragic like the opera she had sang in her life. It was a pity that her repertoire was largely restricted to Italian operas because she could not speak German.

I also have liked Callas all my life. Her singing plus her presence on stage were extraordinary. I still have records of her, but I only saw her singing thanks to the videos in YouTube ( I am increasingly pleased with the existence of YouTube ). I am surprised that she could not sing in German, she was not dumb but could speak well four languages: English, French, Italian and Greek. And to sing in a language does not require to speak it perfectly but simply to produce it phonetically. One hears many Japanese singers who pronounce a nearly perfect German.

I would not call her life a tragedy. It was a success, but not free of the troubles that accompany us living creatures. Her voice declined prematurely but, what more could she have achieved as a singer? Her career was not different from those of olympic athletes, who don't perform in the Olympics anymore at 40 y.o. Her life also ended prematurely at 53, only two thirds of the long life I'm enjoying so far, but it was not short by the standards of extraordinary persons like her, Mozart and Schubert. It is interesting what a critic and friend wrote of her:

During a 1978 interview, upon being asked "Was it worth it to Maria Callas? She was a lonely, unhappy, often difficult woman," music critic and Callas's friend John Ardoin replied:

That's such a difficult question. There are times, you know, when there are people – certain people who are blessed, and cursed, with an extraordinary gift, in which the gift is almost greater than the human being. And Callas was one of these people. It was almost as if her wishes, her life, her own happiness were all subservient to this incredible, incredible gift that she was given, this gift that reached out and taught us all – taught us things about music we knew very well, but showed us new things, things we never thought about, new possibilities. I think that's why singers admire her so; I think that's why conductors admire her so; I know that's why I admire her so. And she paid a tremendously difficult and expensive price for this career. I don't think she always understood what she did or why she did. She knew she had a tremendous effect on audiences and on people. But it was not something that she could always live with gracefully or happily. I once said to her, "It must be very enviable to be Maria Callas." And she said, "No, it's a very terrible thing to be Maria Callas, because it's a question of trying to understand something you can never really understand." Because she couldn't explain what she did – it was all done by instinct; it was something, incredibly, embedded deep within her.^[85]^[64]

Quite a treat to hear her:

and to see her:

Ordinary insignificant persons like me can still have some little successes that give us a glimpse of what it is to be a star. If it is better to have a long relatively happy life than a short very successful life is only speculation, we don't have a choice. But there is some blessing in the insignificance

And just here someone wrote about my life in much more length than about the life of Maria Callas! :lol: :thumb:

InBangkok · April 12, 2021

1 hour ago, heman said:

To sing a very dramatic role for a very young soprano is to my opinion pure suicidal for her future operatic career. The voice will definitely be wrecked in a very short time.

To me a budding soprano should always start with Handel, Bach and Mozart where the orchestration is not heavy and the voice is very exposed. Why should there be a hurry to sing verismo and the heavy roles of Richard Strauss' Salome, Elektra and the female roles in De Frau Ohne Schattern ? One needs to respect the vocal cord otherwise once corroded with extreme "screaming" it is not reversible.

I do totally agree that young voices have to be nurtured and not be pushed into heavier repertoire. I think it is true that most sopranos start out in the soubrette or lyric roles. Some with a rock solid technique can quite quickly move into major roles quite quickly - as with Kiri Te Kanawa whose Countess wowed the opera world when she sang the role under Colin Davis aged just 27. But the roles she had taken before that debut had prepared her well.

The problem seems to me that too many singers are persuaded to push into the heavy lyric and spinto repertoire much too early. For young sopranos to rush into the Butterflys, Toscas and Aidas is crazy. Pushing the voice to sing over a large Verdi orchestra before it is ready is a sure sign that problems will arise. Then there is the same sort of pressure from opera houses and agents for spinto sopranos to push into the dramatic repertoire before the vocal chords, plus the lungs and diaphragm, can handle the extra demand. That's why I have always been amazed that Callas took on such a wide lyric, spinto and even dramatic repertoire in her 20s!

The new 'hot' lyric dramatic soprano of today is the Norwegian Lise Davidsen. Gramophone Magazine wrote of her Strauss/Wagner CD issued 2 years ago, "It's been a long time since a singer generated as much buzz." Anticipating her Met debut also in 2019, the New York Times headed an article, "Not Just A Voice. The Voice." She possesses an extremely powerful voice and has already sung the Tannhauser Elizabeth at Bayreuth and Munich. Last year she should have sung Fidelio opposite Jonas Kaufmann at Covent Garden which the pandemic postponed. She has sung Sieglinde and is about to embark on Brunnhilde. It is agreed by most critics that she will become the most wanted Wagner singer of her generation. But she is still only 34.

Then again, it also takes an intelligent singer to know what she should be singing and when. I was at the performance when the glorious Teresa Berganza made her debut as Carmen when she was 43 - an age when many mezzos have been singing the role for well over a decade. She was superb!

InBangkok · April 12, 2021

53 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

There are times, you know, when there are people – certain people who are blessed, and cursed, with an extraordinary gift, in which the gift is almost greater than the human being. And Callas was one of these people. It was almost as if her wishes, her life, her own happiness were all subservient to this incredible, incredible gift that she was given, this gift that reached out and taught us all – taught us things about music we knew very well, but showed us new things, things we never thought about, new possibilities.

Callas' life and career were a tragedy in several ways. No-one now thinks anything other.

That interview was given (to whom, I wonder?) in 1978 just a year after her death when the entire world was still mourning the passing of such an amazing singer who had become a legend. But we have learned a vast amount her and her life since then. I am sure she knew she was special and possessed special qualities as an opera singer. But we also know that she basically threw it all away - and she knew what she was doing. Dame Joan Sutherland describes getting shivers up and down her spine on hearing her before her dramatic weight loss. Thereafter, Dame Joan said the voice changed and her body was too frail to support it. "I don't think that anyone who heard Callas after 1955 really heard the Callas voice," she stated.

Even though the new book gives us more clues about the effect of illness on her voice, the fact remains that the voice was already in decline by the time she met Onassis in 1959. She unquestionably believed she had found her happiness in Onassis. Thereafter, the opera stage meant virtually nothing to her. All the major Houses begged her to return and offered all sorts of incentives. She accepted a handful. Despite his awful treatment of her, Onassis remained the love of her life. When he died in March 1975, she felt she no longer had anything to live for.

What John Ardoin says in that interview applies much more to a singer like Dame Janet Baker. A banker after leaving school, she was persuaded that she should consider a career as a singer. Thereafter, she and her husband denied themselves the joy of children because they were aware Dame Janet possessed a very special gift that it was her duty to protect at all costs. When she felt she could no longer live up to that gift, she retired from the opera stage aged just 49 and from recitals aged 56. Dame Janet was the supreme professional during her career.

Edited April 12, 2021 by InBangkok

heman · April 12, 2021

35 minutes ago, InBangkok said:

Teresa Berganza made her debut as Carmen

Berganza's Carmen set a new standard then. Carmen under her was not done in a lowly flirty lady but as a person who was confident and "stately". I read this in a book DIVA of which i lost it few years ago. Another extraordinary Carmen must be Agnes Baltsa. Her temperament was extraordinary in this role with Carreras as Don Jose.

Steve5380 · April 12, 2021

Singers face some different conditions than other musicians. The singing instrument is delicate and nearly invisible. Nearly, because the vocal cords can be visualized with instruments, but still their works are not as clear as the action of a grand piano. Pianists can be pushed into heavy practice since childhood, like what happened to Ruth Slenczynska, a most amazing Wunderkind. She played concertos with orchestras as a little kid, yet she is still alive today at 96 and can still play. It's amazing how long pianists can keep performing! And our fingers can recover, like what happened to Perahia after a cut with paper on one of his fingers put him out of service for several years. And pianists can perform even when very ill, like LIpatti did in his last concert shortly before his death of Hodgkin's disease.

But good singing requires a healthy and strong body. The same need athletes and people in sports have, which limits their active careers with few exceptions. Tom Brady is still an excellent quarterback even being in his 40s. So where is the tragedy if a singer ends his/her career in the 40s? A Diva like Callas must have made plenty of money by then to be able to live well the rest of her life, and she was still young to put her interest elsewhere. And this interest, very understandable, was in looking slim and beautiful. Maybe this is how she attracted Onasis... Once slimmed down, it became even more attractive her long neck, and this must have given rise to the theory that she sang so well because her neck was so long. I also like people with shoulders down and long necks, which I find gives a more youthful look.

Now having clarified that singing improves in a healthy strong body, it is clear that this strength must be acquired slowly and carefully. It is the same for us to get stronger. Not to overdo it and avoid injury. A steady routine with slow progressive increase in weights, distance. This is what allowed an 89 y.o. champion powerlifter to deadlift 405 pounds, which I posted recently. The virtues of dedication with discipline, persistence.

InBangkok · April 13, 2021

11 hours ago, heman said:

Berganza's Carmen set a new standard then. Carmen under her was not done in a lowly flirty lady but as a person who was confident and "stately". I read this in a book DIVA of which i lost it few years ago. Another extraordinary Carmen must be Agnes Baltsa. Her temperament was extraordinary in this role with Carreras as Don Jose.

Berganza's Don Jose was Domingo at the peak of his extraordinary career. To support her "friend" Teresa, Mirella Freni flew over to sing Micaela for that one performance. That glorious evening was made even more so by Abbado and the London Symphony. Abbado set the theatre on fire with a Prelude that was considerably faster thah usual. The author, columnist and critic Bernard Levin wrote that Piero Faggioni's production was probably the finest the opera had ever received in the century since its premiere in Paris.

wilfgene · April 13, 2021

14 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

I also have liked Callas all my life. Her singing plus her presence on stage were extraordinary. I still have records of her, but I only saw her singing thanks to the videos in YouTube ( I am increasingly pleased with the existence of YouTube ). I am surprised that she could not sing in German, she was not dumb but could speak well four languages: English, French, Italian and Greek. And to sing in a language does not require to speak it perfectly but simply to produce it phonetically. One hears many Japanese singers who pronounce a nearly perfect German.

I would not call her life a tragedy. It was a success, but not free of the troubles that accompany us living creatures. Her voice declined prematurely but, what more could she have achieved as a singer? Her career was not different from those of olympic athletes, who don't perform in the Olympics anymore at 40 y.o. Her life also ended prematurely at 53, only two thirds of the long life I'm enjoying so far, but it was not short by the standards of extraordinary persons like her, Mozart and Schubert. It is interesting what a critic and friend wrote of her:

During a 1978 interview, upon being asked "Was it worth it to Maria Callas? She was a lonely, unhappy, often difficult woman," music critic and Callas's friend John Ardoin replied:

That's such a difficult question. There are times, you know, when there are people – certain people who are blessed, and cursed, with an extraordinary gift, in which the gift is almost greater than the human being. And Callas was one of these people. It was almost as if her wishes, her life, her own happiness were all subservient to this incredible, incredible gift that she was given, this gift that reached out and taught us all – taught us things about music we knew very well, but showed us new things, things we never thought about, new possibilities. I think that's why singers admire her so; I think that's why conductors admire her so; I know that's why I admire her so. And she paid a tremendously difficult and expensive price for this career. I don't think she always understood what she did or why she did. She knew she had a tremendous effect on audiences and on people. But it was not something that she could always live with gracefully or happily. I once said to her, "It must be very enviable to be Maria Callas." And she said, "No, it's a very terrible thing to be Maria Callas, because it's a question of trying to understand something you can never really understand." Because she couldn't explain what she did – it was all done by instinct; it was something, incredibly, embedded deep within her.^[85]^[64]

Quite a treat to hear her:

and to see her:

Ordinary insignificant persons like me can still have some little successes that give us a glimpse of what it is to be a star. If it is better to have a long relatively happy life than a short very successful life is only speculation, we don't have a choice. But there is some blessing in the insignificance

And just here someone wrote about my life in much more length than about the life of Maria Callas!

A subscription to a notion of the Arts as an embellishment to one's own life experience may be suggestible.

As well as the rest in between.

singalion · April 13, 2021

Regarding Callas, I remember my mother sitting at the radio and listening and we kids had to stay as calm as possible. Her fame went up to the end 70s. ha ha.

Callas, she was just this super opera diva.

Probably some natural beauty mixed with a good voice and good acting skill.

The reason for not appearing in a lot of German language operas might have been due to the post war.

The 40s to 55s after war, mostly German or anything related to Germany was somehow banned.

Her career fell into the pre- and post war time.

How long did it take for Wagner being performed at major opera houses in Europe again?

Surely, Wagner's music did not lead to the wars and I find it silly to ban music only because it was heard or loved by Dictators. (Nevertheless music commissioned by the Dictators should be treated differently.)

Callas did Fidelio and Mozart and others. But her specialty was surely the Italian operas.

As to German operas, it is sometimes annoying if some singers can't get the language right. But I can understand, for the more Latin language natives, speaking German is just different or difficult to get the pronunciation right.

But the biggest problem I see for Callas is the recording technique was just too bad during these years. Not sure if there are some old recordings which can be treated. Often during these years all was mono sound and then the range of improving the sound is limited or it will sound muffled even with best efforts.

InBangkok · April 13, 2021

In Joseph Losey's wonderful movie version of Don Giovanni Berganza appears as Zerlina. Zerlina is supposed to be just a girl and at well over 40 Berganza should have been too old. Yet she looks and sounds marvellous. Indeed, I think the casting is superb with Raimondi, van Dam, Moser, Te Kanawa and Maazel conducting the Orchestre de Paris.

Not sure if you have seen the movie. I think it is the finest film of any opera made specially for the screen. The idea had been given to Joseph Losey by Rolf Lieberman who had been the hugely successful Intendant in Hamburg before moving to the same position in Paris. The visuals set mostly in a gorgeous Palladian Villa in the Veneto would be hard to beat. There are only very occasional slips when the lip sync is slightly out, but these are few and far between. This is a short video clip about the making of the movie.

Edited April 13, 2021 by InBangkok

InBangkok · April 13, 2021

3 minutes ago, singalion said:

The reason for not appearing in a lot of German language operas might have been due to the post war.

I think the reason s probably more simple than that. It remained merely the custom for many Opera Houses in Italy to sing German opera in Italian, just as it remains the custom today in some German Houses to sing Italian opera in German. Even Wagner had approved the translation of his operas into Italian for performances in Italy. For decades Janacek operas in the UK and the US were always performed in English by all the opera companies. Now they are always in Czech.

I once heard an extraordinary Nozze di Figaro in three languages. It was supposed to be in Italian, but the Countess first fell ill and the only cover available knew it only in English. Then the evening before the performance the Count fell ill. The German baritone Peter Christophe Runge was flown in but he only knew the role in German.

15 minutes ago, singalion said:

But the biggest problem I see for Callas is the recording technique was just too bad during these years. Not sure if there are some old recordings which can be treated. Often during these years all was mono sound and then the range of improving the sound is limited or it will sound muffled even with best efforts.

So sad that many Callas recordings were pirate versions made in the 1950s backstage at La Scala when she was in her prime. EMi, her exclusive label which regards itself as the protector of the Callas legend, has been buying up these recordings to see what can be done to improve the sound.

One that has been released is a recording of her Violetta in Lisbon in 1958. This illustrates at least some of the vocal difficulty she was experiencing. In the final aria "Addio del passato", her pitch wavered and the voice almost cracked on the final sustained high A. The conductor suggested she start the note fortissimo and then pull back to pianissimo which would make it much easier for Callas. She would have none of it. Verdi had marked the note triple 'p' and that is what she would give the audience, even although she really could not hold the note without a major 'wobble'.

InBangkok · April 13, 2021

Dudamel to Paris

There will be a major Media Conference in Paris on Friday to announce the new Music DIrector of the Paris Opera. It is an open secret that this will be Gustavo Dudamel. For him personally this makes sense as his wife is a Spanish actress living in Spain. Having recently renewed his contract with the LA Philharmonic through the summer of 2026, it seems he will create time for Paris by giving up some of his lucrative guest engagements.

Looking at some of the specialist opera chat rooms, it seems this will not be a very popular appointment. His experience in opera is still very limited, even though he has conducted a couple of times at La Scala in Carmen and Don Giovanni. Reviews of Carmen were mixed, suggesting that while his conducting of the orchestral items was very good, co-ordination between stage and pit was not so good. His Vienna Turandot was not well received. On the other hand his Otello at the Met in 2018 garnered excellent reviews.

heman · April 13, 2021

4 hours ago, InBangkok said:

Gustavo Dudame

He is an excellent conductor and was here in Singapore with the SSO performing Dvorak's 9th Symphony a few years ago. The concert was coupled with my favourite Alban Berg's second Viennese School remarkable violin concerto. I recalled he was a little over sentimental in his approach especially in the slow movement of the New World's Symphony. Otherwise it was a perfect concert. I am yet to see him conducting an opera. Very few conductors managed both operas and concert music. Karajan and Solti were marvelous in handling both although the former approach in his later life was too musical and too clean a Karajan-line that the music seemed to lost its soul. I heard his remarkable Wagner's Tristan and Isolde. I was very impressed musically but NOT shaken dramatically!

Edited April 13, 2021 by heman

singalion · April 13, 2021

32 minutes ago, heman said:

He is an excellent conductor and was here in Singapore with the SSO performing Dvorak's 9th Symphony a few years ago. The concert was coupled with my favourite Alban Berg's second Viennese School remarkable violin concerto. I recalled he was a little over sentimental in his approach especially in the slow movement of the New World's Symphony. Otherwise it was a perfect concert. I am yet to see him conducting an opera. Very few conductors managed both operas and concert music. Karajan and Solti were marvelous in handling both although the former approach in his later life was too musical and too clean a Karajan-line that the music seemed to lost its soul. I heard his remarkable Wagner's Tristan and Isolde. I was very impressed musically but NOT shaken dramatically!

Dudamel conducted on 5 and 6 Jan 2017 at Esplanade. Surprisingly the concerts were not on Friday and Saturday as usual but on Thursday and Friday. Violin was played by Renaud Capuçon for Berg's violin concerto.

Actually not that long ago.

Edited April 13, 2021 by singalion

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