Discussion on Gay Conversion therapy (compiled)

[Steve5380]

On 11/9/2018 at 10:24 PM, Guest Lel said:

Well, most human kinda need a religion, for all sorts of reasons. It might not purely for rational reasons. Rather than having traditional ones I’ll prefer progressive ones instead. Of cuz we can give up on Churches but something better or worse will fill that void eventually. 

 

When giving up religion, something better can take its place:  philosophy.

 

Humanistic philosophies can reduce the urge to get answers to transcendental questions, and they apply our reason instead of blind faith.

Agnosticism, which is close to a philosophy, keeps us satisfied with our ignorance by accepting that we are unable to understand the mysteries of the universe.

[Guest Yoh]

Umm using philosophy to find the same peace of mind is not as easy as simply accepting a religion. Very few people are able to do it.

[Steve5380]

6 hours ago, Guest Yoh said:

Umm using philosophy to find the same peace of mind is not as easy as simply accepting a religion. Very few people are able to do it.

 

Many people are TOO LAZY to do it.

It would be much easier if organized religions would not exist.

[LeanMature]

On 11/10/2018 at 1:08 PM, kingbitch said:

 

I sometimes get asked. How could I tell right from wrong without divine guidance? 

 

Easy... empathy and consent. 

 

What is right to you may be wrong to others, and vice versa. So respect must be there aside from empathy and consent.

[yoyo74]

I feel sad for him. He wasted 12 years of the chance to love and be love and to find happiness.

[Rhyn]

Conversion therapy can result in mental illness, poll finds

 

Attempts to change a person’s sexual orientation result in high levels of mental health problems including suicide attempts, self-harm and eating disorders, according to a survey.

 

Some respondents said they had been forced to undergo “conversion therapy”, and a handful said they had been compelled to take part in sexual activity with someone of the opposite gender.

 

The survey on faith and sexuality, conducted by the Ozanne Foundation, which campaigns for LGBT+ equality, will be presented to members of the Church of England’s synod, the C of E governing body, which is meeting in London this week.

 

Read more in the article above

————————————

 

For what it’s worth, it’s clear that conversion therapy, whether with religious context or not, is problematic. There should be consideration to outlaw such practices if there are cases made public. 

[Steve5380]

Hopefully the Church of England will contribute to the elimination of conversion therapy.

In the US this "therapy" is banned for minors in at least 15 states.

Several countries in the world have a countrywide ban, and many are contemplating the same.

 

This "therapy" is one of the outstanding crimes of Christianity, of the Catholic Church in particular, together with the "celibacy" of priests.

Hopefully Pope Francis will have the guts to do away with this harmful celibacy rule.

[GachiMuchi]

This is a link from Medium.com
I am a gay ex-Christian and I attended a Truelove.is event

ConcernedFollow

May 3

Around this time last year, I was having lunch with some Christian friends when I brought up my concerns about Truelove.is. As a gay man who spent eight years in Christian society, I was interested in the church’s latest attempt to reach out to gay people. Even though Truelove.is insists that the church loves people who are not straight, I found that the campaign ultimately teaches tolerance without acceptance; “we disagree with his decisions, but that doesn’t mean we love him any less”. To me, Truelove.is advocates a worldview in which gay people must either strive to be heterosexually married, celibate, or be judged by society; a sad impasse for anyone to inhabit.

That’s what I said when my friends asked me for my thoughts on this issue. After hearing what I had to say, one of my friends was consumed by a sudden wave of hatred. After I said that I think Truelove.is essentially promotes euphemised conversion therapy, my friend shouted, “I thought the only thing controversial about conversion therapy is that they electrocute people?”

Taken aback by his spite, I mentioned that sexual orientation cannot be changed, and that any attempt to repress a natural instinct would be both painful and foolish. To this, my friend spat, “that’s just what the liberals say!”

Needless to say, that lunch date did not end nicely.

Ever since then, I have been troubled by how hateful my friend became once we discussed homosexuality. Out of curiosity, and out of a desire to understand this traumatic rupture in our friendship, I attended the Truelove.is x Heartbeart Project Symposium held on 30 April 2019 at Church of our Saviour. Re-entering Christian society felt like a return to muscle memory. Re-embracing my dual-citizenship status between Christianity and homosexuality, I attended the Symposium to see if returning to the society that my friend still inhabits — a society that I left behind — would help me understand him better.

Attending the Symposium provided me with clarity; it also reminded me of why I left Christianity. Previously, I was confused by the difference between my friend’s usual self and the hatefulness he expressed once it came to gay issues. Attending the Symposium gave me a window into my friend’s mind by giving me a look into his society. Across the event, speakers ridiculed critics, ignored responses to their campaign, and portrayed themselves as the target of persecution by what they call “the liberal and mainstream media”. According to this worldview, my friend — and Truelove.is supporters — are not wrong, but misunderstood. It is not on them to explain themselves to gay people, but on gay people to understand them.

All in all, Truelove.is talks about gay people, speaks at gay people, but does not know how to talk with gay people. This is how my friend reacted because this is how they talk about us behind closed doors.

Just to clarify: Truelove.is announced two prohibitions at the beginning of the event. Firstly, unauthorised media was not allowed. Secondly, the Symposium operated under Chatham House rules, which means that the organisers are happy for people to cite things mentioned during the event as long as anonymity is preserved. Out of respect for these regulations, I have blocked the identities of the people I am citing. I am also sorry that I do not have the space or lived experience necessary to discuss The Heartbeat Project.

Talking About Gay People

I’ve heard enough homophobia from the pulpit during my time as a Christian. I’ve heard about the Gays’ plan to ruin society, about my supposed desires for incest, paedophilia and bestiality. This pushed me away from the church; I couldn’t live with people who insisted on believing that I was always a lapse of self-control away from actual immorality.

To Truelove.is’s credit, I haven’t heard any explicit homophobia from them. Indeed, Truelove.is has moved away from the overt homophobia and slippery-slope arguments that dominated my time in church. However, several moments during the Symposium suggested that implicit homophobia remains a problem.

As Truelove.is writes, “we are enslaved by sin — powerless and addicted, so to speak — and lose our ability to choose good”. This seems to be a guiding principle for the campaign: straight Christians occupy a higher moral ground and must lift gay people up to their level of morality. This might be fine in itself — after all, most Christians think that all who do not accept Jesus will be barred from heaven — but only gay people are treated with a special sort of loathing that emphasises their inability to be anything more than their sin.

Even though Truelove.is insists that people should not be defined by their identity, some of the speakers seem to do so anyway. One speaker told the audience about a counselling session he was conducting for a man with same-sex attraction. During that session, he heard God say “[Redacted — A], give him a hug.” He then told the audience:

“To be honest, I was really struggling. Because I think I am dark, tall and handsome — what happens if he like [sic] me?”

The audience laughed. I retreated into the body of my eighteen-year-old self — I recalled what it was like to feel like someone was always suspicious of me, afraid that I would burst out of my Christian self-control to reveal the sex monster inside.

Do you really think I am just a swarm of bodily instincts without reason? Would you ever express a fear of hugging a straight opposite-sex person in the same way that you fear hugging me?

To be fair, A did give this man a hug. I am glad that A overcame his homophobia to believe the best in other people. What scared me, however, was the way he wrote this off as a joke, and how the audience interpreted this statement as something funny. When we laugh at a joke, we internalise the ideology that supports the joke; we unite ourselves against an enemy that we can ridicule together. What scared me about the Symposium — and what turned me away from Christianity — is this hidden but pervasive judgment. Even though they keep these thoughts hidden, this is what they think of me in private; these are the jokes they crack about me when they think I can’t hear them.

Speaking At Gay People

Any meaningful conversation has to involve two sides understanding each other, speaking with each other. If one speaks to conquer, one ends up speaking at people. Perhaps this is a consequence of the Truelove.is dictum that gay people “are enslaved by sin — powerless and addicted, so to speak — and lose our ability to choose good”; since gay people are wrong by definition, Christians stand to gain nothing from understanding their points of view. What saddens me about Truelove.is is that in spite of their earnest belief that they are engaging with gay people, they deny gay people the dignity of being engaged as equals.

Anyone following the social media storm that followed Truelove.is’s debut will have noticed that criticism of the campaign frequently came down to the notion of conversion therapy. Even though Truelove.is falls short of the traditional definition of conversion therapy in which physically abusive techniques such as electroshock torture are used to (unsuccessfully) recalibrate the brain’s sexual responses, many critics think that Truelove.is amounts to a psychological version of conversion abuse. According to Grace Yeoh from Rice Media, Truelove.is“mask(s) homophobia as holiness” and “claim(s) to demonstrate unconditional love, yet stop(s) short of all-encompassing acceptance and affirmation”. Similarly, Gay Star News is troubled by Truelove.is’s insistence that homosexuality can be repressed.

To many and to me, Truelove.is might as well be conversion therapy: it coerces gay Christians into suppressing their sexual desires in exchange for social affirmation. Any campaign manager worth their salt would have reacted to this recurrent critique, but Truelove.is doesn’t seem to think this point is worth addressing. While giving the audience an account of Truelove.is’s progress, Speaker A flashed screenshots of the aforementioned websites on its screen, and said:

“We have been called many, many things… homophobia… we have been accused of using conversion therapy — which, actually, I don’t even fully know exactly what that means… I have been accused of things I don’t understand.”

Once again, the audience laughed. I felt that old sense of alienness rise up again; this is a society that doesn’t understand, and doesn’t want to understand, the pain that I go through. It is unimaginable that anyone interested in “curing” homosexuality doesn’t know what conversion therapy is. Truelove.is’s wilful ignorance is a return to an “out of sight, out of mind” strategy that discounts the critic as someone worth engaging; if I don’t understand you, I can’t be guilty, and I don’t have to change for you.

Why, then, are these critics not worth listening to? Truelove.is seems to think they are either liberal or stupid. Later on in the event, we are introduced to a Truelove.is social media response squad — they are “a group that [has] faithfully been responding on social media”, a group of “lawyers and writers who gather together and say, ‘hey, we cannot let lies and fake news triumph.’”

Instead of engaging with criticism, Truelove.is discounts criticism by deeming these arguments wrong by definition. To Truelove.is’s online response team, it’s not about what you say, but who you are. If you lean left, your opinions are fake news; as my friend put it, criticism should be ignored because “that’s just what the liberals say”. In their worldview, Truelove.is is criticised because they are Christian and not because they are wrong. This is how they disavow responsibility for self-reflection; all criticism is interpreted as attacks on their identity and not their ideas.

In addition to discounting your thoughts if they don’t fit their narrative, Truelove.is simply doesn’t think very highly of people who disagree. As the speaker introduced two members of the Truelove.is online response team, he jokingly mentions — to the audience’s laughter — that one of them likes to “pour oil on anger”. This laughter went on for quite a while; it seemed like the audience was aware of this person’s enjoyment for online fighting, and that watching this person stick it to the liberals brought them pleasure. In fact, in response to being asked why he joined the team, this online response team member goes on to say:

“I think it really comes from a point of having seen the church being beaten down left, right, centre… and knowing that I can no longer stay silent about it, especially if the Lord has given me a brain.”

On some level, this made me feel like things weren’t just about winning people over for Jesus. At play somewhere in this social movement is a desire to simply win. It’s about winning the liberals, about defeating fake news, about proving Christians are smarter.

I left the symposium feeling like I had to take a shower.

Talking With Gay People

I attended the Truelove.is x Heartbeat Project Symposium with the intention of finding out how my friend’s mind worked. I left remembering why I decided to leave Christianity. I felt like I was viewed as a product of my sin, not someone to be understood but an objective to be conquered. My friend’s behaviour reflected a social trend of dismissing and ridiculing ideas that contest his worldview. It’s more important to him that he continues believing in his gay horror fantasy instead of looking beyond his fear to realise that I am not that fantasy.

I don’t doubt that Truelove.is has the best intentions at heart for gay people. What I am saddened by is the way they shut out criticism by deeming it liberal nonsense because they think gay people and their frustrations do not deserve respectful consideration. Truelove.is might insist that they are here for conversations and not conversions, but these are conversations they will have about you and not with you.

In these closing moments, I turn again to my Christian knowledge and to the verse that gave Truelove.is its name:

“Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.” (1 Corinthians 13:4–7).

At the Truelove.is meeting, I realised that even though the campaign strives to embody these values publicly, it ultimately returns — even if unknowingly — to a self-affirming, self-serving sense of moral superiority that masks itself as love. As a gay man, and as one who used to be Christian, I was reminded that I left the church because I was unconvinced that it would protect me, trust me, and persevere in understanding me.

I am sorry I don’t have much advice for the church on how they can reach out to people like me better. If I had any, I wouldn’t have had to leave.

But I do know Truelove.is will read this. I hope you won’t dismiss this letter as liberal nonsense, but ask yourself whether your outreach attempts actually come from Christ-like love. As the Ethos Institute study on LGBT hospitality in Singaporean churches has shown, while only 13% of church leaders think churches are not at all open to LGBT people, 50% of LGBT respondents felt so. This is the gap in perception that arises when you talk to but not with, when you force all conversations to occur on your terms.

It’s not about nice product designs and well-produced short films. We know when you don’t actually want to listen.

You have already lost me; I hope you will help make the church more hospitable for those who still want to stay.

Edited May 6, 2019 by GachiMuchi

[Guest Fluff]

“I don’t doubt that Truelove.is has the best intentions at heart for gay people.“

 

I disagree. They are primarily motivated by hatred towards GAY MEN in particular.

[Steve5380]

"You have already lost me; I hope you will help make the church more hospitable for those who still want to stay."

 

This will have to wait until the church abandons the belief that God created the sin of homosexuality but it starts to suspect that it is of human nature, some misinterpretation like the prohibition to use different fabrics in clothing. Until then they will always speak with the superior tone of those who don't commit the "sin" of homosexuality.

 

They will not admit their ignorance compared to us gays.  All they have to go by is hearsay from old writings and modern preaches based on these old writings.  None of them have heard any anti-gay talk directly from a God,  and not even from the alleged words of Christ. It all comes from the Old Testament and some writings of this guy Apostle Paul,  a former enemy of Christians with questionable connection with a God.  While we gays have PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

 

If they were honest, churches would stop their arrogance and listen to us gays TO LEARN. 

 

This "truelove" has a facebook page:  https://www.facebook.com/truelove.is.sg/

In there one finds weird "testimonials" that warrant little credibility or come from weird gays.

.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Steve5380

[Guest IM Gay Chrisitian]

Before anyone truly come to the full understanding of Christ, there is no true church.  For now, let ourselves be the true church and walk alone with Jesus in the midst of hates and pretense from other "Christians".

[Steve5380]

4 hours ago, Guest IM Gay Chrisitian said:

Before anyone truly come to the full understanding of Christ, there is no true church.  For now, let ourselves be the true church and walk alone with Jesus in the midst of hates and pretense from other "Christians".

 

I fully agree with you.  The Gospels describe the philosophy of Christ.  If we make this philosophy our choice we have the full right to call ourselves Christians, independently of organized religions.

[Walter]

That's a great read! I am a free thinker, but I have always wonder about this organisation.

It's really sad reading this: people thinking that they are truly helping and that they are the saviours of the gays, not by understanding but by taming and denying them

[Steve5380]

39 minutes ago, Walter said:

That's a great read! I am a free thinker, but I have always wonder about this organisation.

It's really sad reading this: people thinking that they are truly helping and that they are the saviours of the gays, not by understanding but by taming and denying them

 

Yes, they may think that saving gays from the sin of homosexuality is the same as volunteering for Alcoholics Anonymous saving alcoholics from the grips of their vice.  They are simply IGNORANT.  But the organizers of TrueLove.is ?  Are they also ignorant or are they already poisoned by blind religious fanaticism and intolerance?

[Guest guest truelove]

 

3 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

Yes, they may think that saving gays from the sin of homosexuality is the same as volunteering for Alcoholics Anonymous saving alcoholics from the grips of their vice.  They are simply IGNORANT.  But the organizers of TrueLove.is ?  Are they also ignorant or are they already poisoned by blind religious fanaticism and intolerance?

Definitely biased. If you look at their latest video, it's so obvious that they're trying to demonise homosexuality by portraying gay people as "bound by darkness", sex addicts and perverts...

[Steve5380]

1 hour ago, Guest guest truelove said:

 

Definitely biased. If you look at their latest video, it's so obvious that they're trying to demonise homosexuality by portraying gay people as "bound by darkness", sex addicts and perverts...

 

LOL!  This "bound by darkness" is really hilarious!  The video you quoted is a work of fantasy, or maybe the experience of a psychotic gay, who exist like psychotic straights exist.  It forgets that straights also watch porn, also masturbate.   Many straights don't see a pussy until they are adults.  And when they see it and come close, it is forbidden for them to touch it until they are married and only to make babies,  according to the Catholic "morality".   In the video he says: "I let go of my gay identity and repented",  something that can only be pathological or an abominable lie.  

On youtube under account "truelove.is" there are some more videos,  one worst than the other,  with artificial stories written for maximum anti-homosexual effect. 

[hahaha]

Christians do have perceptions about LGBT people and LGBT people (including the author at Medium.com) do have perceptions about Christians as well.

Many LGBT people automatically assume that Christians are against them and have a self defensive protective mechanism activated.

 

It's not easy to break this cycle of presuppositions 

[Guest One lead to the other]

1 hour ago, hahaha said:

Christians do have perceptions about LGBT people and LGBT people (including the author at Medium.com) do have perceptions about Christians as well.

 

LGBT people's perception of Christian people is an aftermath of what Christian  often did  to them - often being loud, interfering politics with ban this and ban that until a country look more like a moral prison than a free soveregn state.  Singapore is no exception.   Pinkdot wouldn't have started if not for a bunch of Christian lunatic trying to seize a secular institution and caused a furore in this country for months before the anger subsided.  Lee Kuan Yew has in early days warned Christian from being too territorial may caused a country to divide.  His words became reality, but unlike his father, LHL dare not antagonise the extremist for fear of political backslash and indirectly allowed those bigots to move inroad into to create a divisive society.  You can tell the difference between two type of leadership.

[Guest Happy]

1 hour ago, hahaha said:

Christians do have perceptions about LGBT people and LGBT people (including the author at Medium.com) do have perceptions about Christians as well.

Many LGBT people automatically assume that Christians are against them and have a self defensive protective mechanism activated.

 

It's not easy to break this cycle of presuppositions 

 

Yeah, but I think it is commendable that the author actually attended the event to understand how they think... At least now whatever suppositions he had about them before are now based in fact

[Steve5380]

2 hours ago, hahaha said:

Christians do have perceptions about LGBT people and LGBT people (including the author at Medium.com) do have perceptions about Christians as well.

Many LGBT people automatically assume that Christians are against them and have a self defensive protective mechanism activated.

 

It's not easy to break this cycle of presuppositions 

 

Guest hahaha:  Ha, ha, ha,  you sound like you are not a LGBT and you don't have LGBT friends, but you are totally ignorant.

It is like saying that Blacks have "presuppositions" about White supremacists and Jews have "presuppositions" about Neonazis.

 

And look how difficult it is to break the cycle of punishing gays in Singapore, with this abominable law 377A which is clearly a violation of equal rights.

[Guest Guest]

On 2/21/2019 at 11:24 PM, Steve5380 said:

Hopefully the Church of England will contribute to the elimination of conversion therapy.

In the US this "therapy" is banned for minors in at least 15 states.

Several countries in the world have a countrywide ban, and many are contemplating the same.

 

This "therapy" is one of the outstanding crimes of Christianity, of the Catholic Church in particular, together with the "celibacy" of priests.

Hopefully Pope Francis will have the guts to do away with this harmful celibacy rule.

 

It is an old tale that homosexuality did came from demons. Why can't they accept the fact that it normally exists.

[groyn88]

https://the-singapore-lgbt-encyclopaedia.wikia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy_in_Singapore

 

Conversion therapy, which is the pseudoscientific practice of turning homosexuals straight or, at least, encouraging them to abstain from gay sex while living as a heterosexual person would, is a major focus of the ex-gay movement in Singapore.

It began with the establishment of the Choices ministry at the Church of Our Saviour by a charismatic American ex-gay pastor, Sy Rogers, in 1991. Since then, the church has used its influence to promote its ex-gay message in the press and on television, and to affect government policy in concert with Focus on the Family.

Conversion therapy received much tacit support from the Singapore government in the first few decades following the arrival of HIV in Singapore in 1985.

Despite a worldwide movement to ban conversion therapy which has snowballed since the mid-2010s, the practice remains legal in Singapore.

 

Early attitudes towards conversion therapy in Singapore

Main article: Singapore's first newspaper articles on the LGBT community

The general public, religious organisations (especially churches) and, indeed, many isolated gay individuals themselves were only made aware of the existence of a sizeable LGBT community in Singapore after the publication of a groundbreaking 4-part feature by the evening broadsheet, New Nation, entitled "They are different..." on 4 consecutive days from Monday, 24 July to Thursday, 27 July 1972. A single-article sequel to the series was published the following week, on Monday, 31 July 1972.

The articles revealed that gay Singaporeans could turn to an organisation called the Churches Counselling Centre for help:

"So, who else can homosexuals here turn to when they want to reach out and discuss their problems and dispel their anxieties?

Few of them bring their problems to the church. This is partly because such a small proportion of the population are Christian, and probably also because the church here has always been known to come down severely on homosexual practices.

But the attitude of the church has changed. It does not condone homosexuality, but it has come to take a more sympathetic view.

Some homosexuals have gone to the Churches Counselling Centre for help.

Comforting those in desperate need.

The Churches Counselling Centre and the Samaritans of Singapore service probably have more experience in helping homosexuals here than anyone else with the exception of a few psychiatrists.

But their experience Is limited to several cases mainly male homosexuals plus a few lesbians.

Some homosexuals have approached the Churches Counselling Centre direct but more usually they ring up the SOS service.

The counselors at the SOS will talk things over with distressed callers and invite them to the office for further discussion of their problems.

After they have been to the SOS office they may be referred to the service's own counseller or to the Churches Counselling Centre.

A spokesman for the Churches Counselling Centre, an inter-denominational organisation, said that most of the homosexuals they encountered were latent male homosexuals whose main problem was relating to members of the opposite sex.

According to him, these homosexuals are overawed by women. Women frighten them because they feel Inadequate and uncomfortable In their presence. They do not know how to act or behave and so fail totally in forging warm and close relations with any woman.

On the other hand, the latent homosexual does not have any compensating relationship with a man either.

This inability to relate to anybody man or woman is extremely bewildering and frightening.

PAINFUL

We do not know how many latent homosexuals there are In Singapore, much less how many suffer such agonising trauma. What we know is that a few, desperate for help, have gone to the Counselling Centre.

The overt homosexual Is not without his problems either though they are probably less painful and terrifying than the latent homosexual's.

Still, the Counselling Centre has encountered a few of them.

Though the practising homosexual can relate with his own sex, he feels that society has let him down. He feels that people do not approve of him and he is constantly living in the shadows, afraid of detection.

Among the encounters the Counselling Centre has had with practising homosexuals is the fairly typical problem of the homosexual and his partner breaking up.

This normally happens after a quarrel and for any of the reasons which cause heterosexual relationships to split.

A spokesman for the Counselling Centre said: "The homosexual I talked to was frantic because his partner was moving to another city. He was, emotionally, completely dependent on the partner."

These relationships are often closer than that between a man and a woman because homosexuals tend to feel that society is hostile to them so they cling to one another for security.

The Counselling Centre has also observed that lesbians here from the few who have approached it for help are not so emotionally dependent on their partners as the males.

This is probably because lesbians can live together with no suspicion whatsoever of their sexual inclinations.

And, without the pressure or censure of society, there is less need to cling together.

So far the majority of those who have appealed to the Counselling Centre for help have been the English-educated, ranging from the lower-middle to the upper-middle class.

This does not mean that most of the homosexuals in Singapore fall into this category. What is probable is that the image of the Counselling Centre, its association with the church, "attracts" a particular section of the population.

However, its approach to the problem is radically different from that of pastors and priests.

It does not believe in "reforming" the homosexual or making him give up his homosexual practices.

TRUST

Neither does it believe in just playing Freud and holding sessions to delve Into the homosexual's past and uncovering whatever deep emotional traumas afflicted him.

The spokesman said: I would spend many sessions with a latent homosexual, helping to restore his trust in people, starting with myself.

"I would be willing to talk with him on any of his thoughts or fantasies, and would be able to accept whatever he says without laughing, criticising or judging.

"Then I would help him to decide on ways in which he could improve his relations with people. I would make him face up to what he Is but I would never set the goals for him.

"What I would do is sit with him and examine the various choices open to him and what would happen to him if he accepted one of the various options.

"But I would never make decision for him. It is entirely up to him. I believe in making people more responsible for their own lives."

The Counselling Centre feels that this is one of the most difficult problems it is called upon to solve.

Although there are various theories on what makes a person homosexual, the spokesman said that in Singapore environmental factors play an important part.

It is not uncommon for families here to dress up and treat a girl as a boy and vice versa. One case the spokesman knows of personally concerns an Indian family who had twin boys.

This was considered bad luck so one of the boys was brought up as a girl until adolescence.

He is now a teenager and the spokesman is convinced that he will encounter problems of sexual identity and relationships.

Once a person has grown up under such environmental conditions it is unfortunately very difficult for the Counselling Centre or the psychiatrists to sort him or her out.

First mention of conversion therapy

"Some New Nation readers were shocked and dismayed to learn of the extent of homosexuality here. While many advocate greater understanding and more liberal laws and attitudes towards homosexuals, others feel something should be done to "bring them to heel."

One suggests electric shock therapy to condition homosexuals to a heterosexual orientation.

One psychologist, however, thinks differently. He advocates one method of treatment, Operant Conditioning, considered crude and cruel by many, to convert a homosexual.

By this method a man or a woman is punished for his or her homosexual tendencies by the application of electric shocks.

"In treatment, a picture of a nude male is flashed on the screen. When the patient sees this, he is given a nasty shock. On the other hand, when a female is shown he will be given a pleasurable feeling. He is thus conditioned to associate unpleasantness with his homosexual tendency."

The sex of the figure is reversed for a woman. This method has been used in Australia and England.

The psychologist said: "I realise that this method is considered by many to be cruel. Apart from this method, however, there is no real treatment.

"My opinion is that counselling is insufficient, and cannot help change the homosexual as his problem is far more deep-rooted.""

Church Of Our Saviour invites Sy Rogers to institute conversion therapy

Main article: Sy Rogers

Main article: Choices

Ex-gay pastor Sy Rogers.

Conversion therapy did not exist as a structured programme until it emerged following a series of events beginning with the announcement of the first cases of HIV infection in Singapore in April 1985 and the first death from full blown AIDS in 1987 (see main article: Earliest cases of HIV/AIDS in Singapore).

In the years following the general panic that ensued, the Church Of Our Saviour (COOS) invited charismatic American ex-gay Christian pastor, Sy Rogers, to Singapore in 1991 to start an ex-gay movement locally. Rogers set up Choices at COOS, the first ex-gay Christian ministry in Singapore, as well as a conversion therapy programme. The name ‘Choices’ was Rogers' brainchild. Clients who attended his 14-week lecture series, divided into three modules, realised its significance and pertinence when they were clearly told that regardless of the situation that led them to be gay, they could now make a choice to say ‘No’ to it. It was also Rogers who came up with the cliche, ‘Freedom is when you are able to say “No”’. He had the blessing of the Government who probably thought this was a good way to combat the spread of HIV/AIDS. It commandeered the press to give publicity to Rogers as well as Focus On The Family and their efforts to turn unhappy homosexuals straight.

In the 1990s and 2000s, the Choices ministry would periodically hang gigantic banners with anti-gay slogans on the exterior facade of the Church of Our Saviour, eminently visible to passers-by or anyone travelling on the above-ground MRT which skirted the building. Two of these messages which caused an outrage in the gay community were, "Homosexuals can change" and "Gay but not happy? Call CHOICES."

As part of the official campaign to encourage gay Singaporeans to turn straight, a television programme was produced in Mandarin and broadcast in May 2003. It featured actors re-enacting the supposedly true-life account of a young, masculine, gay Singaporean man cruising for sex in public swimming pools and toilets. This reinforced the misconception that homosexuality resulted from having an unhappy home, parents who constantly fought, and being sexually abused. In this case, the protagonist was only 6 years old when he was asked by an adult female to perform sexual acts with a girl his age. Finally, the man was "successfully'" converted through counselling from a dissatisfied, unfulfilled homosexual to one happily married to a female spouse and who begot a son. The docudrama was made in consultation with Choices, whose spokesman delivered some advice at the end of the film[1],[2],[3] (see also: Singapore gay documentaries).

 

Crunchtime (转捩点) - Singapore's first gay docu-drama (Part 1 of 3)

 

Crunchtime (转捩点) - Singapore's first gay docu-drama (Part 2 of 3)

 

Crunchtime (转捩点) - Singapore's first gay docu-drama (Part 3 of 3)

 

Patrick Lee describes traumatic experience of conversion therapy

A former ex-gay ministry pastor, Patrick Lee, was the first Singaporean to describe in detail his traumatic experience of undergoing conversion therapy and surviving the ordeal. His story was published in a Yawning Bread article entitled, "A proven ministry" dated December 1999.

Lee's narrative stretches over 14 years. In October 1994, he was hospitalised at Adam Road Hospital and received electroconvulsive therapy (ECT). It erased about 4 weeks of his short-term memory and what he now knows about this period of his life is from what others have told him. He first thought he stayed just a few days at the hospital but later learnt he was warded for 3 weeks.

“It took me no less than 2 months,” Lee emphasised, “before I realised that I was seeing a psychiatrist. All this while, I knew that I felt like a ‘sick person’ who needed medical attention and that my mum was lovingly taking me to every one of the appointments. She would also sit in together. And every day, she was also the one who gave me my medication.”

“One day, two months later, I noticed that the signboard at the Adam Road Hospital said ‘Mental Wellness’. Only then did I realise I was being treated by a psychiatrist. I also began to wonder why I had such a severe loss of memory of the past 2 months.” At that instant, Lee thought about two of his church members who had mental instability and who had been subjected to electro-convulsive therapy. “Did Dr Wong do to me that most inhumane act of ECT??? I needed to know and wanted to know, and so at my next visit I questioned him. But beyond ‘yes’, Dr Wong was reluctant to release any more information to me. He tried to appease me with some magazine articles extolling the great benefits of ECT and the near-zero side-effects. He said that ECT is the quickest and most effective method to terminate the ‘trauma’ a patient suffers from. The only side effect is the loss of the immediate memory which could be weeks or months.”

In 1982, the Billy Graham Crusade came to Singapore. Lee, who had been with the Church of Our Saviour since 1975, and Christian even way before that, found his convictions rekindled. “I was awakened to the seriousness of homosexuality. It was wrong, immoral and a sure road to hell. If I were to persist in my pursuit of casual and paid sex, I would end up in hell. It really affected me. I sought spiritual help. I told God that I would know he was real if he could break the power of my dependency on gay sex.”

His friends, many of them from the same school, but all gay, sniggered at the idea that God could help overcome homosexuality. After turning the issue many times over in his mind, Lee decided he did not want to hide it. “I didn’t want to go to hell.” So he confessed to his Pastor the same year. “He was so happy,” Lee said, raising his arms, recalling the Pastor’s grateful heavenward glance, “that someone who was gay had seen his sinful ways and turned to God for help. ‘Hallelujah, you’ve seen the light, son!’ ”

On the Pastor’s advice, he destroyed everything that connected him to his gay past: the photographs, the clothing accessories, contact numbers, gifts from boyfriends. “I was serious. I wanted to go to heaven.” Lee was also required to separate himself from all his gay friends. “It was one of the 12 steps of therapy. I never saw those friends again till last year.”

Lee’s church touted him as a model Christian, someone who, by the power of God, had found the determination and strength to reform himself. “Although I only gave my ‘conversion from homosexuality’ testimony 3 times in my home church; the ‘good news’ was told by my Pastor to all his other clergymen, and church members were encouraged to go and testify to their friends and relatives of the power of God that has delivered a homosexual from his sinful ways. Consequently, I became more and more popular, and this resulted in a flood of people coming to see me for counselling. It was people with all kinds of problems who came to see me: women involved with married men, young man confessing their bondage to heavy petting or premarital sex, and of course, homosexuals who wanted help. The logical reason was that if God could break the power of the worst sin, i.e. homosexuality, then any other sin is of no problem. So why don’t we talk to Patrick, and ask him how did he avail himself of the power of God?”

Soon the number of people who came to see Lee was more than he could reasonably handle. His Pastor said to him, “You have a proven ministry. Give up your secular job and come serve the purpose of the Kingdom of God.” A scripture from Matthew’s Gospel was quoted to Lee: “Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things shall be added unto you.” So in January 1984, Lee officially became a member of the pastoral team. Not longer after, he was awarded the title ‘Pastor’.

Lee was proud of what he had achieved. He was sure that he had made the right decision. It wasn’t going to be easy living a new life, it was going to take continuing effort and willpower, but the reward in the end would be his. This is not to say it was smooth sailing. Even though he never went cruising again, nonetheless there were lapses, occasional moments of weakness. They were not frequent — fewer than twenty times in the 12 following years — and never premeditated. It was just by chance, meeting someone while swimming or cycling, or being cruised in a public toilet.

Yet after each slip, there were overwhelming feelings of guilt for 3 to 4 months. It would weigh heavily on his mind. He saw himself as diseased, for sin is a moral disease. He had committed the sin of sodomy, the sin of perversion, the sin of homosexuality. And he needed healing. “The teaching in the Book of James, chapter 5 verse 16 said, ‘Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed.’”

His conscience prodded by this biblical injunction, Lee always confessed his slips to his Pastor. Typically, the Pastor would frown and sigh, “you need more accountability and more deliverance.” Lee also needed to work towards achieving the Crown of Victory over homosexual orientation, i.e. marrying and procreating. For the first three years, Lee did not think he was ready to get involved with a woman. He could give up his gay life, but it would take a while before he was ready to date someone of the opposite sex.

At first, his Pastor planted ideas very subtly. “But one day, he lost all his politeness. ‘Are you impotent?’ he asked.” So the pressure began to build, and Lee felt he had to prove himself otherwise. Even the Bishop got involved. In a private interview he asked WHEN Lee intended to get married and have children, because this would greatly enhance his ministry as a Pastor.

“The first woman I dated was Marjorie, a concert pianist. It lasted one week! I was frightened at the thought of this girl. Janice, my second, lasted 3 months. She was from the same church and a Clinique sales assistant.” After Janice, there was a break of about 3 years. “Then there was Erin, a Creative Director. That lasted 7 months. After her, I saw no one for 5 years.”

In the meantime, Lee went to Belfast, Northern Ireland, and stayed three years. “In 1990, which was the 7th year of my pastoral service, I was granted a ‘special sabbatical’ in appreciation of my contribution to the growth and development of the church. This followed from a mission trip which I led to Ireland. There was a church in Belfast which was interested in the ‘ministry of deliverance’.

Lee was an outstanding example of a ‘deliverance candidate’, so it seemed the right thing to send him to teach the “Western” church this powerful warfare tool called the ‘ministry of deliverance’. Since this request coincided with his due sabbatical leave, he volunteered to go and spend 3 years there. While there, he took the opportunity to further his theological knowledge, signing up as an external candidate for the Diploma in Religious Studies with Cambridge University.

“The Church’s recognition of my contribution,” said Lee, “was seen in their generosity in that they paid for 3 years’ study at Cambridge which included tuition fees, books, food & board. This was in addition to the fact that every month I continued to receive my full salary with year-end bonus too. I was the only one in the Church’s pastoral staff awarded with such a generous support.”

He spent about 70% of his time on theological studies and 30% in helping the local church in Ireland. “In June 1993, I graduated with a full diploma with distinction for consistent high performance throughout my course. The diploma also made special mention of my proficiency in the New Testament Greek.”

Upon his return, Lee resumed his role as a Senior Pastor but had five new portfolios added to the previous two. He began seeing Regina, an engineer. “I saw her for over a year, and she was the first woman I had sex with. I thought she was a virgin like me, but I discovered much later, and to my regret too, that she had slept with all her previous boyfriends.” Good Christians are supposed to remain virgins till after marriage. “Then one night,” Lee continued, “while we were lying naked in bed, she suddenly turned me over, and with deft fingers, she took my manhood and plunged it right into her private garden. Being a virgin boy, the first experience of intercourse was like a journey to seventh heaven. If you’ve never had a woman before, you can’t know what a great feeling it is!”

But...“Though in body I felt like I had taken a trip to heaven, in my spirit I had fallen into the depths of hell. In the Bible, Apostle Paul made sexual sins — the sins of adultery, fornication and homosexuality — to be the worst a Christian could commit. So once again, I was troubled by guilt; yet I was afraid to confess it especially now that I had become a Senior Pastor. I finally did so, to my fellow Senior Pastors, only 3 months later, instead of my usual immediate confession. But the procrastination only meant that the guilt continued to burn and torment me for 3 months.”

Soon after, Lee decided to marry Regina and the wedding was set for 7 January 1995, even though he was increasingly aware that Regina was the wrong choice for him. “She was controlling, possessive, demanding and most often, unreasonable. On the one hand she gave me sexual ecstasy but on the other hand she tormented me in ways no less than Delilah’s as she tormented Samson. As a result, I needed to find comfort in men again, whom I knew would be reliable.”

So in a way, it was waiting to happen. “We took a short holiday in July 1994 and stayed two nights at a well-known hotel in Kuala Lumpur. There, I discovered their spa pools. There was a big one that could sit 20 people and three smaller pools, each in its own room. And the doors could be locked! You can imagine what went on. There were so many men! I had a glorious time!”

“But immediately after, I was extremely guilty and extremely stressed again. I was guilty of the sin of fornication and the sin of homosexuality compounded together. I was an incorrigible sinner. Everything was caving in. The torment was terrible. The scripture in James kept coming back to me. Otherwise there would be no healing. None.”

Three months later, he was in Adam Road Hospital. Lee was later told he had a complete breakdown, though he has no memory of it. (For the complete narrative, see the main article: Patrick Lee).

Evolution of conversion therapy at Choices

On 27 April 2019, a Twitter user named Vishan posted an excerpt from the Wikipedia article on Choices containing the following information which has since been edited out[4],[5],[6]:

The tweet made its way to Reddit where many users were quick to condemn the ministry for conducting conversion therapy[7].

One incensed Reddit user with the moniker of "y08hci0299" went so far as to telephone the church. He described his conversation:

"I actually did some of my own CSI into this programme a few months ago. I called the church number and inquired about this 'ministry', and the lady on the line actually passed me the contact number of the gay conversion therapist herself.

 

I actually called her and we had an hour long conversation about what she does. It was enlightening(in the worst way possible) and here are some key takeaways:

I asked her about the demographics of the people she sees. She told me most of her 'patients' are young gay men in their late teens and early twenties. Most of them come from Christian backgrounds and attend church and were referred to her via word of mouth.

I actually asked her if she saw more gays or lesbians. Interestingly, she told me that the people who see her don't call themselves/identify as gay or lesbian, they refer to themselves as 'struggling with same-sex attraction'. She told me that people who identify as 'gay' or 'lesbian' don't go for conversion therapy.

I asked her to tell me more about herself, her age, qualification etc. She is in her thirties, with a bachelor's in psychology from SIM, and received further training from Counselling and Care Centre (CCC). The CCC is a non-profit organisation providing counseling services that is affiliated with the National Council of Social Service (NCSS) which is a governmental organisation. This was shocking as counsellors/therapists if I'm not wrong need at least a master's degree to legally practice as counsellors or psychologists. So the gay conversion therapist was unqualified.

I asked her about the success rates. She said that turning them straight isn't actually the goal, and that most don't 'become straight' afterwards. Bingo. Straight from the horse's mouth. She said it's more about 'managing' the desires and feelings.

I asked her about how she she goes about doing it. Basically it was religious talk therapy with bible reading and prayer thrown in.

I asked her about her views on homosexuality. She said "Well obviously the bible doesn't approve of it, and that there's been no proof that homosexuality is an inborn biological trait"."

From the exchange, one can surmise that the church's female "conversion therapist" agrees that someone who is attracted to members of the same sex cannot be ‘converted’ to being ‘straight’. Choices' programmes have therefore evolved from ‘conversion’ to ‘management’ based on a new realisation and paradigm that if the ministry cannot stop individuals from being gay, it can at least try to prevent them from acting on their urges.

 

TrueLove.Is

 

TrueLove.Is epitomises the reformed face of the ex-gay movement in Singapore. It promulgates a toned down, contemporary version of conversion therapy and is a ministry of 3:16 Church. The latter was started in January 2013 and is led by Senior Pastor Ian Toh[8]. The TrueLove.Is ministry itself developed as an offshoot five years later, in June 2018[9].

TrueLove.Is reaches out first and foremost to LGBT Christians, as well as other Christians who want to be equipped with Christian-centric resources on LGBT issues. Its Facebook states that “The ministry provides Christian stories, resources, and a safe community to help Christians with unwanted same-sex attraction.” Its Instagram account is dotted with interviews featuring Christians who are “born again.” In videos, soft piano keys play in the background as people speak about their journey to finding God, and discovering the truth behind their same-sex attraction (SSA). These clips and IGTV features often speak about being “set free.” Its core message is simple: "Don’t just come out, come home".

Branding

In an article dated 24 August 2018 on Rice Media written by heterosexual Christian Grace Yeoh, the author opines that anyone who chances upon its Facebook page[10] may initially conclude that the church is truly affirming and welcoming of the LGBT community, which is exactly how the initiative hopes to appear. In fact, Truelove.is is a textbook example of effective and excellent branding[11]. After all, Pastor Norman Ng, the creative director of the ministry, worked in the marketing industry for close to a decade.

 

Firstly, Truelove.is understands its target audience: Christian millennials who are well-read and well-intentioned. Through high-quality videos and nuanced articles showcasing the intimate stories of several Christians who struggle with “same sex attraction” (SSA) and who claim to have overcome it, the in-house creative team manages to soften the church’s typically hard line stance against the LGBT community.

Secondly, the singular tactic of Truelove.is is foolproof. The initiative makes clear that it comes from a place of ‘love’, it wants to listen to LGBT Christians without passing judgement, it wants the church to be a safe space for LGBT Christians to feel loved and accepted, and it wants LGBT Christians to know that God loves them unconditionally, whatever they choose to do with their SSA.

Finally, Truelove.is understands the visual power of renowned symbols. It uses the rainbow flag to draw attention to its cause, aligning the church as allies of the LGBT community. It is effective because it is ‘radical’.

However, detractors of the ministry allege that its approach is pure deception, employing the slickly packaged marketing of an updated form of conversion therapy designed to force LGBT Christians to suppress their sexuality.

Promotional videos

In one of the ministry's videos featured on their Facebook page, a woman only identified by her first name Tryphena says: “I was so filthy, and so messed up. But He still loves me.” On its Instagram page, she is showcased as one of the many people who worked with the church to get over the “same-sex attraction” she faced since she was a teenager. In another post featuring Tryphena, she tells the church, “Ever since childhood, I needed to be the man. To protect my friends, be the surrogate husband to my mother, to be a better man than my father was. I tried to be better, but was not man enough for her.” She explained that yearning to be a man made her want to be a lesbian but that TrueLove.Is has helped her find God and realise she did not actually want to date women.

 

Alessio- Born Again

Alessio, another TrueLove.Is member with only his first name disclosed, shared a story similar to Tryphena’s. “Was I born gay?”, he asks in a sombre video. He describes his fear of women, supposedly brought about by witnessing them putting men down. He says that with the help of God and TrueLove.Is, he realised that he is not gay. It was, the organisation argues, just fear. “Alessio has found peace instead of a tortuous struggle,” said the text on the video.

Messaging

Essentially, when Truelove.is tells LGBT Christians to “come home”, they are not saying that it is acceptable to be gay or to have sexual relationships with others of the same gender. They are saying that it is not a sin to have gay desires, nor should anyone be ostracised for having them. However, it would be sinful to act on them in the eyes of the Lord. As such, “coming home” is merely about a commitment to Christ and His ways, which includes not acting on one’s SSA - something straight Christians may see as a perfectly reasonable path.

Truelove.is firmly asserts that the church must win the trust of LGBT people by using the right language and respecting their journey. Its flock is reminded never to harp on whether an LGBT Christian has ‘turned straight’ nor try to ‘fix’ or ‘save’ LGBT Christians. It claims that its approach is not conversion therapy. Embarking on a journey with someone who has SSA is simply about remaining present in their lives and constantly reminding them that because God loves them, He knows what is best for them.

According to both Truelove.is and Choices, the three factors which cause to homosexuality are:

• a sensitive child as a victim
• a dominant mother
• a distant father.

Both ministries preach that if individuals' lives comprise these three elements, they “may get their sexual desires messed up during the course of puberty”. It is grounded in the theory that because sexuality can be altered, homosexuality is caused by sin.

No one at Truelove.is says being gay is “wrong”, but they do not need to. Unlike the Lawrence Khongs of the world, they never make their intolerance explicit. They use soft power, and words like ‘love’, ‘vulnerability’, and ‘safe spaces’, to hide their unspoken rejection. They wholeheartedly believe that “true” love conquers all. But when handled carelessly, the author feels that love is also a form of violence that cannot be undone.

Anthea Ong queries Health Minister in parliament about conversion therapy

On 4 May 2020, Nominated Member of Parliament (NMP) Anthea Ong queried Minister for Health Gan Kim Yong in Parliament regarding conversion therapy[12],[13]. She wanted to know whether the Ministry would consider:

• stating an official position against conversion therapy, as it was not approved by expert bodies in psychology including the American Psychiatric Association (APA) and the British Psychological Society (BPS)
• disseminating guidelines against conversion therapy to mental healthcare professionals
• establishing complaint mechanisms for clients who have experienced conversion therapy and
• pursuing disciplinary action for mental healthcare professionals who practise or refer patients for conversion therapy

Gan replied:

"The International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems, 10th revision (ICD-10), which is the current standardised medical classification list by the World Health Organisation (WHO), states that sexual orientation alone is not to be regarded as a clinical disorder that needs to be cured. Homosexuality has not been considered a psychiatric diagnosis since 1973 (by the American Psychiatric Association Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) and 1977 (by the WHO International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems).

 

MOH expects doctors and other healthcare professionals to practice according to evidence-based best practice and clinical ethics, and to consider and respect patients’ preferences and circumstances (including sexual orientation) when providing care. For individuals who seek care with a desire to change one’s sexual orientation through clinical means, healthcare professionals should care for and support these individuals with empathy and sensitivity.

Mechanisms for the public to feedback on care provided already exist at public healthcare institutions and members of the public can submit a formal complaint to the Singapore Medical Council (SMC) if a doctor is acting unethically or providing inappropriate treatment.

The SMC takes complaints against doctors seriously and will investigate and impose disciplinary action if the doctor was found guilty of misconduct."

Counselling of victims of conversion therapy by Oogachaga

LGBT-affirming counselling agency Oogachaga provides support for people suffering from the trauma of conversion therapy. It can be contacted for:

• 📧 Email counselling: CARE@oogachaga.com (daily)
• 📲 WhatsApp counselling: 8592 0609 and https://wa.me/6585920609 (text-based) on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays from 7pm to 10pm, and on Saturdays from 2pm to 5pm.

Free Community Church

LGBT Christians seeking a church in Singapore which accepts their sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression unconditionally may wish to worship at the Free Community Church located at #02-01, One Commonwealth.

•  

Edited November 15, 2020 by groyn88

[Guest Conversion]

If conversion therapy proved to be 100 % successful, will you guys remain status quo or choose to convert?

[Why?]

Does such "conversion therapy" include having sex with their male volunteers, until they are certain I no longer has the urge for men?  If so, sign me in.  Tell the counsellors the above suggestion might be effective. Otherwise it won't work, because we Gay people know better.

Edited November 14, 2020 by Why?

[Steve5380]

Science and the earlier conversion therapists have spoken:  Our inborn sexual orientation is not amenable to be fooled around with. 

 

Those who are dissatisfied with their orientation being homosexual,  are they not better off taking steps to accommodate their life to their natural orientation instead of trying to change it?  Today there are sufficient accessible places in the world where homosexuality is accepted.

 

 

[Guest No to ECT]

To summarize the lengthy article - being LGBT is not a disease. Organized religion IS a disease.

 

These people take advantage of very vulnerable and impressionable individuals who are struggling with their sexuality and their perceived immorality (again caused by religious indoctrination!).

 

They 'convert' them not because they have a sincere desire to help, but because they see them as pawns to help spread their ministry.

 

Organized religion has only one mission - to have everyone submit into their denomination. Their only real purpose in life is to make more of their own kind until everyone else is under their dominion. You know what else works like this? A virus.

 

Yes you heard that right. Organized Religion of any kind is a disease.

[G_M]

Get back to the topic!

[Guest Analogic]

18 hours ago, Guest No to ECT said:

To summarize the lengthy article - being LGBT is not a disease. Organized religion IS a disease.

 

These people take advantage of very vulnerable and impressionable individuals who are struggling with their sexuality and their perceived immorality (again caused by religious indoctrination!).

 

They 'convert' them not because they have a sincere desire to help, but because they see them as pawns to help spread their ministry.

 

Organized religion has only one mission - to have everyone submit into their denomination. Their only real purpose in life is to make more of their own kind until everyone else is under their dominion. You know what else works like this? A virus.

 

Yes you heard that right. Organized Religion of any kind is a disease.

Virus? Another insightful and illuminating anology. I see them as mold. They spread their pores, start colonies everywhere, denatures or destroys everything they parasitically leech on.

[Dart]

The Conversion Therapy in the form of intense prayer and counselling is still being practised by conventional churches today. The victims comprise mostly of impressionable youths. One mega church in KL holds this cowardly practice under their special programme behind closed door.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Dart

[doncoin]

I understand that when you are young, trying to learn more about who you are and finding your way in the world, and having to deal with your sexual orientation can be overwhelming. Realising you are different and trying to fit into a hetero-norm society can add to its challenges. You are you. Conversion therapy is like trying to change the color of your skin. No conversation therapy in the world can turn you into a person of another race/ethnicity. You can live your life as a self-hating person, or you can embrace who you are and surround yourself with people who love and accept you.

[Steve5380]

1 hour ago, doncoin said:

I understand that when you are young, trying to learn more about who you are and finding your way in the world, and having to deal with your sexual orientation can be overwhelming. Realising you are different and trying to fit into a hetero-norm society can add to its challenges. You are you. Conversion therapy is like trying to change the color of your skin. No conversation therapy in the world can turn you into a person of another race/ethnicity. You can live your life as a self-hating person, or you can embrace who you are and surround yourself with people who love and accept you.

 

Well said.  This is why it is important that we join a gay community.  If not in person, then at least online.

 

Then we realize that we are different  (from some people),  and are the same (as some other people).  This happens to everybody. It's no reason for bad feelings.  

[Guest Of fungus, mildew and mold]

On 11/16/2020 at 12:36 AM, Guest Analogic said:

Virus? Another insightful and illuminating anology. I see them as mold. They spread their pores, start colonies everywhere, denatures or destroys everything they parasitically leech on.

Same poster but to add on: like molds and funguses, they usually target and successfully overtake something that is already run down, debilitated, primitive or unguarded - like a weakened plant, injured animal, dead organism and uncovered food.

 

[Guest Analogic]

31 minutes ago, Guest Of fungus, mildew and mold said:

Same poster but to add on: like molds and funguses, they usually target and successfully overtake something that is already run down, debilitated, primitive or unguarded - like a weakened plant, injured animal, dead organism and uncovered food.

 

Yes they are superrr duperrr opportunistic!!! Haha cannot avoid replying to my own post as a guest cos cannot edit post.

[Guest MEEE]

I don't support conversion therapy against the person's will.  But I do believe a person's sexual preference or "orientation" can change.  

[Steve5380]

Now that the republicans lost the US presidential election and the Senate majority last November,  they are releasing all their venom as miserable poisonous snakes they are, focusing on what has been cheap targets throughout history,  the LGBTQs.  

 

Hasn't there been enough evidence unearthed about the harmful effects of conversion therapy?   Haven't the original "therapists" themselves recognized the falsity of their treatments?  

 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/republicans-state-legislatures-conversion-therapy-lgbtq_n_60771da7e4b0e554e81a6a6b

 

Decent Americans of good will should realize that it is not sufficient to vote the GOP (the republicans) out of office in the presidential elections.  It is equally important to get the republican politicians out of any positions of power in their state, like governor, members of state congress, state judges, city mayors, up to the lower levels.  

[Guest Hmm]

https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-whether-conversion-therapy-can-alter-sexual-orientation-without-causing-harm/

[Steve5380]

1 hour ago, Guest Hmm said:

 

 

Hmm?  

[Guest Downunder]

Gay conversion therapy roadshow’ hits WA churches with ‘reformed’ gay man at the helm

We’re sorry, this service is currently unavailable. Please try again later.

 

‘Gay conversion therapy roadshow’ hits WA churches with ‘reformed’ gay man at the helm

By David Prestipino

June 4, 2021 — 12.00am

 

Albany Baptist Church’s event labelled ‘gay conversion therapy’ by LGBTQI community

‘Gay conversion practices’ are legal in WA but banned in Victoria and Queensland

Researchers believe the practice can cause serious psychological harm

A ‘gay conversion therapy’ roadshow visiting West Australian churches has sparked outrage and renewed pressure on state and federal governments to outlaw the controversial practice.

Albany Baptist Church last week hosted two Real Lives presentation events by True Identity International, which claimed to “tell stories of hope, vision and dignity beyond LGBTQ+.”

The Church said more than 400 people attended the first event, which they said caused much “misunderstanding” as about 50 Pride protestors demonstrated outside, calling the event “homophobic” and “just the tip of the iceberg in WA”.

Parker’s talks detail his previous life as a gay rights activist in Britain who was able to embrace heterosexuality after he became a Christian.Credit:Stephen Kiprillis

“We heard eight incredible stories of people meeting Jesus, who praise God that their lives have never been better,” the Church explained on its Facebook page.

“We are committed to respectful conversation with people who want to tell their stories. We want to honour the request from some same-sex attracted and gender dysphoric people to share their stories of how the Gospel of Jesus Christ has brought them hope.”

James Parker was one speaker at the initial event who told his story about how he had been gay, but now was no longer. Mr Parker has written online of his support for “sound methods of conversion therapy”.

His Victor or Victim talk online, posted by the Church to explain what was discussed at their event, reveals how he realised he was gay at puberty, then became a gay activist in London and believed himself a heterosexual woman in a male body.

He later discovered God, found himself becoming “more masculine”, and was shocked when he began to notice the curves of women.

The tagline of his presentation: “Come out. Come home”.

Mr Parker’s reach extends across the eastern seaboard. In July 2018 Mr Parker toured Sydney for a series of talks on sexual orientation and sexual culture to parishes including St Charbel’s and St Joseph’s Maronite churches in Sydney.

He was a keynote speaker at the 2019 Fiat Youth Congress in Victoria and is a regular on various podcasts distributed by Parousia Media, which promotes tours and events from Mr Parker and other speakers.

Churches in several Perth suburbs have also hosted Mr Parker and his presentations have been promoted by Family Voice Australia, National Civic Council, Australian Christians and the Australian Christian Lobby.

ACL’s WA director Peter Abetz, a former Liberal member of the WA Parliament and now deputy mayor of Perth local government electorate Gosnells, has co-presented similar events with Mr Parker.

The pair have previously campaigned against marriage equality and the Safe Schools program and have criticised the McGowan state government over its promise to outlaw gay conversion therapy.

Ahead of the same-sex marriage plebiscite in 2017, Mr Parker claimed on Perth radio being gay could lead to an early death, and last year on Sky News the Christian activist likened Victoria’s proposed conversion therapy ban to Nazi Germany.

Gay conversion therapy is now banned in Victoria, the ACT and Queensland. The WA government pledged to use the federal government’s national code of conduct for unregulated healthcare workers to stop it too.

The flyer advertises how attendees would hear stories of hope from those who had previously lived as LGBTQ+.Credit:Facebook

“If the introduction of legislation and/or regulations is necessary to give effect to the code, that will be looked at,” a WA government spokesperson told WAtoday.

Gay conversion therapy or efforts to change a person’s sexual orientation was not therapeutic and caused mental health harm to LGBTI people, they said.

Regulated healthcare areas such as psychiatry and psychology have codes of conduct that ban conversion practices and the national code would place standards on unregulated areas such as counselling services to give health authorities the power to intervene if someone offered the practice.

Critics say the code doesn’t extend to church groups, where they say the majority of conversion practices occurs. Health professionals, psychologists and advocates have condemned pressure by churches and other groups to make a person change or alter their sexuality or gender identity.

Mr Parker posted a new blog online on Wednesday saying the evening contained no mention of going from ‘gay to straight’, and that the idea of being ‘cured of homosexuality’ through quack conversion techniques was denounced from the stage.

“Storytellers merely shared how their life choices had brought about a deeper hope, a greater dignity, and a wider vision for their lives. Wouldn’t anybody wish the same for their LGBTQ+ neighbour?” he wrote.

He also said WA’s state government had yet to listen to the stories of many same-sex attracted and gender dysphoric people who had significantly benefited as a result of types of therapeutic help which politicians now seemed assiduous in their attempts to ban.

On Wednesday Mr Parker wrote that it was becomming clearer that the tail was now wagging the dog, as “public servants”, in reference to the ABC’s coverage, bowed down in servitude to LGBTQ+ lobbyists.

“As a former gay activist, I know firsthand that this was the goal we planned more than three decades ago – and most people have fallen for the propaganda, only the cracks are now rapidly beginning to show,” he wrote.

“Not only are mental health issues consistently disproportionate in the LGBTQ+ community, government funding is often increased to deal with mental distress in LGBTQ+ individuals with few signs of any significant, long-lasting improvements.

“Compare this to the advances which have transpired in the lives of the eight speakers who shared their real-life stories, and you might wonder why a macro minority would not want to replicate the hope, dignity and vision this micro minority of courageous individuals have found?”

Albany Baptist Church had promoted last week’s events on social media as an opportunity for parishioners to hear from people who embraced religion and ceased being same-sex attracted or transgender but removed the post after widespread criticism.

Albany Pride spokesperson Tiger Bird said the context of Mr Parker’s presentations could harm a person’s mental wellbeing.

“The questioning and ‘coming out’ experience is really unique to LGBT people; it’s a confusing and troubling time, and it’s inevitably made a lot harder when the people and society around you are opposed to LGBT people or view them as disordered or damaged,” he said.

“For people that have spent their lives in these churches, whose family and friends are all connected with a particular church or religion, the damage is immense.

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“It puts them in a position of having to accept who they are and live authentically, or to lose everything and everyone they know and love.”

Mr Bird said society often mistook gay conversion therapy with extremes such as electro-shock treatment, torture, physical abuse and “corrective rape”.

“It can be a lot more subtle than that – such as the idea that you can effectively ‘pray the gay away’,” he said.

Albany Baptist Church senior pastor Phil Beeck said a youth-focused session on Friday promoted “counselling” for same-gender attraction while the first event was well attended.

“It was an amazing night, around 430 people attended and we received only positive responses from all who came,” Mr Beeck said.

What is gay conversion therapy?

Gay conversion therapy can take place in health clinics but mainly involves faith-based groups providing counselling and group support activities designed to “overcome” same-sex attraction and change gender identity or expression of lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans and gender diverse people.

The practice includes prayer, scripture reading, fasting, spiritual healing and spiritual deliverance to “heal sexual brokenness”.  

Despite claims to the contrary, exorcism (as popularly understood in the west) has not been a feature of gay conversion therapy practised in Christian communities.

Some faith-based organisations have referred people to registered medical and psychological clinicians known to provide psychotherapy, pharmacological and aversion therapies.

Gay conversion therapy is based on the belief that everyone is born with the potential to develop into heterosexual people. Despite the term including the word gay, which refers to sexual orientation, conversion therapy is also based on the belief that people’s gender identity should accord with that assigned to them at birth.

It emerged in Australian conservative Christian communities in the early 1970s and continues to be promoted by many churches, mosques and synagogues, through print and digital media, and some Christian radio programs.

About 10 per cent of Australians who are attracted to people of the same sex or who are gender diverse are vulnerable to conversion therapy practices.

Although the number of religious groups advertising gay conversion therapy in Australia and New Zealand has fallen sharply over the years, researchers have been unable to determine whether the practice itself has actually dropped off.

Some religious groups engaged in gay conversion therapy have moved away from suggesting same-sex attraction can be overcome, instead promoting activities to help same-sex attracted people live chaste and celibate lives in accordance with their religious beliefs.

Source: La Trobe University, the Human Rights Law Commission and Rainbow Health’s Preventing Harm, Promoting Justice study, 2018.

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