Everything, everything good except face. Still bf material?

[Greenliv]

Call it shallow, call it superficial. But that's the dilemma.

 

Someone with a pleasant face is always easier to look at and communicate. Otherwise, with a CMI face, it may perhaps take a long long while to overcome the mental hurdle of wanting him as a bf.

 

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, but face CMI to the beholder, will the RS die off after a trying period?

[Steve5380]

  On 10/17/2020 at 3:51 PM, Greenliv said:

Call it shallow, call it superficial. But that's the dilemma.

 

Someone with a pleasant face is always easier to look at and communicate. Otherwise, with a CMI face, it may perhaps take a long long while to overcome the mental hurdle of wanting him as a bf.

 

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, but face CMI to the beholder, will the RS die off after a trying period?

Expand  

 

What is CMI?  Center of Medical Imaging ?   Ah, this laziness of abbreviations! 

 

Your question needs to specify more of the face,  beyond CMI.   Beauty is not everything in a face.  They say that the face is where the spirit of the person is displayed.  A face can be ugly but KIND.  It may reveal good feelings.  I would not go with a bf whose face does not show kindness,  even if he is a model.

 

My late bf had a face that was not special,  but it had an attractive aura.  He looked everyone in the eyes and people would smile at him.  Especially children and babies would smile and laugh with him.  Even after years of sickness and somewhat emaciated, his face would attract positive attention.  And he was very fine bf material!

 

So, summing up,  for those who want a bf who is also beautiful from the inside,  the face should reflect this.

 

[Greenliv]

  On 10/17/2020 at 4:46 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

What is CMI?  Center of Medical Imaging ?   Ah, this laziness of abbreviations! 

 

Your question needs to specify more of the face,  beyond CMI.   Beauty is not everything in a face.  They say that the face is where the spirit of the person is displayed.  A face can be ugly but KIND.  It may reveal good feelings.  I would not go with a bf whose face does not show kindness,  even if he is a model.

 

My late bf had a face that was not special,  but it had an attractive aura.  He looked everyone in the eyes and people would smile at him.  Especially children and babies would smile and laugh with him.  Even after years of sickness and somewhat emaciated, his face would attract positive attention.  And he was very fine bf material!

 

So, summing up,  for those who want a bf who is also beautiful from the inside,  the face should reflect this.

 

Expand  

CMI = cannot make it. 

 

If you don't like looking at the face, it is worth exploring other aspects of the person as a bf? 

[Guest Cannot make it]

My bf need not be handsome 

but if his face cannot make it and I need to face him for life, I rather be alone. 
 

at first look, I must like him. As he aged, I don’t mind him growing old, haggard or fat. It’s nature that ppl grow old. But already CMI at first look then move on for both party. 

[Steve5380]

  On 10/17/2020 at 5:05 PM, Greenliv said:

CMI = cannot make it. 

 

If you don't like looking at the face, it is worth exploring other aspects of the person as a bf? 

Expand  

 

Why would you choose to have a bf whom you would not like to look at his face?   Or you think that a bf is not a choice?

[Greenliv]

  On 10/17/2020 at 5:07 PM, Guest Cannot make it said:

My bf need not be handsome 

but if his face cannot make it and I need to face him for life, I rather be alone. 
 

at first look, I must like him. As he aged, I don’t mind him growing old, haggard or fat. It’s nature that ppl grow old. But already CMI at first look then move on for both party. 

Expand  

I think along the same line. But maybe my std too high. 

[Greenliv]

  On 10/17/2020 at 5:08 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

Why would you choose to have a bf whom you would not like to look at his face?   Or you think that a bf is not a choice?

Expand  

He is not grotesque. To another person, he may be acceptable. Just that I have a different set of eyes. 

[Guest Cannot make it]

  On 10/17/2020 at 5:09 PM, Greenliv said:

I think along the same line. But maybe my std too high. 

Expand  

Actually I don’t mind small kkj because no one knows it as Long as its for my personal consumption 

But looks must be pleasant looking 

how cmi Can it be 

lower your standard or don’t over thinking then life will be happier 

[Steve5380]

  On 10/17/2020 at 5:13 PM, Greenliv said:

He is not grotesque. To another person, he may be acceptable. Just that I have a different set of eyes. 

Expand  

 

Shouldn't your bf be adapted to YOUR EYES?   What does it matter if he is acceptable to other eyes but not to yours?

[VitaminA]

  On 10/17/2020 at 5:09 PM, Greenliv said:

I think along the same line. But maybe my std too high. 

Expand  

Did u really spell out the truth? If one got handsome face but no good bod and big kkj, u want him as bf or not? 😝

[Greenliv]

  On 10/17/2020 at 7:05 PM, VitaminA said:

Did u really spell out the truth? If one got handsome face but no good bod and big kkj, u want him as bf or not? 😝

Expand  

That's not addressing the issue. Now, if he has good bod and ok kkj, but face not the type that you like to lick, you still OK to take him? 

[Greenliv]

  On 10/17/2020 at 5:17 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

Shouldn't your bf be adapted to YOUR EYES?   What does it matter if he is acceptable to other eyes but not to yours?

Expand  

So how now? Not adapted to my eyes. Does it matter? 

[Steve5380]

  On 10/17/2020 at 8:10 PM, Greenliv said:

So how now? Not adapted to my eyes. Does it matter? 

Expand  

 

If not adapted to your eyes, it only matters TO YOU.  YOU must decide if he is bf material.  YOU have your own criterium to evaluate him.  It doesn't matter what WE think.

[Guest Fatty]

Cannot la. If face CMI where got mood to fuck?

[Greenliv]

  On 10/17/2020 at 10:25 PM, Guest Fatty said:

Cannot la. If face CMI where got mood to fuck?

Expand  

Doggy style, close the eyes, off the light? 

[fab]

  On 10/17/2020 at 10:47 PM, Greenliv said:

Doggy style, close the eyes, off the light? 

Expand  

 

Wear mask.

[Guest jjlin]

If EVERYTHING else is good, personality, compatibility, physique, kkj, etc

then maybe worth giving it a chance

 

Because your opinion may change.

Maybe it is like watching a TV drama. You may not like the look of the actor, or not your type or whatever, but with the progress of the drama, you can come to really like that character. This happen to me many times watching dramas. Perhaps it is applicable to real life too!

[caindukker]

We all have our preferances. If you even have to ask this question, you should move on to the next. He might not be your kind of food, but he might just be the perfect one for someone else. 

 

I might think that my fiance is the most adorable boy in town, others might think he's average. But who cares, I'm the one who loves him, takes care of him, fucks him and live with him for the rest of my life. So that's all that matters. 😁

[CleanFitTone]

  On 10/17/2020 at 8:09 PM, Greenliv said:

That's not addressing the issue. Now, if he has good bod and ok kkj, but face not the type that you like to lick, you still OK to take him? 

Expand  

Of cos no lah.. but if he is not too ugly, can pass him to me. 😆 joking joking..

[Greenliv]

  On 10/18/2020 at 3:33 AM, caindukker said:

We all have our preferances. If you even have to ask this question, you should move on to the next. He might not be your kind of food, but he might just be the perfect one for someone else. 

 

I might think that my fiance is the most adorable boy in town, others might think he's average. But who cares, I'm the one who loves him, takes care of him, fucks him and live with him for the rest of my life. So that's all that matters. 😁

Expand  

Exactly my question. You find him adorable. What if he is what he is now for everything that he stands for except that he is not adorable in your eyes? That is the essence of this whole chat. Would you still be benevolent to take him? 

[Greenliv]

  On 10/18/2020 at 5:27 AM, CleanFitTone said:

Of cos no lah.. but if he is not too ugly, can pass him to me. 😆 joking joking..

Expand  

Nobody is ever ugly in a sense, but whether he is 顺眼 to you or not. Some people just have a certain kind of face that you tend to go easy on them no matter what transpired. I am talking of such a face.

[Why?]

CMI is a very subjective topic.  A person you regarded as "Trash" may often be picked up by another as "Treasure".  I know.  I saw many of my attached friends' bf.  I can easily say majority of them look far from satisfactory, according to my taste, but you can't judge what the beholders see.  Another scenario, based on personal experience during the early cruising days,  a person who is CMI (Can't Make it)  in those days, and today appear exceptionally CMI (Can Make it).  It reminds me of ugly duckling story. It is often too early to judge someone whose body and face has transformed every 7 years of human life.   Someone whom I rejected and ran away 20 years ago, may now become my stalking target.   Who knows, another 20 years later I may ran away again....hahaha   BF's material, changes with time and so are you. 

Edited October 18, 2020 by Why?

[sum1outhere_03]

  On 10/17/2020 at 3:51 PM, Greenliv said:

Call it shallow, call it superficial. But that's the dilemma.

 

Someone with a pleasant face is always easier to look at and communicate. Otherwise, with a CMI face, it may perhaps take a long long while to overcome the mental hurdle of wanting him as a bf.

 

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, but face CMI to the beholder, will the RS die off after a trying period?

Expand  

 

I'm concerned for you cos humans (male or female) age and the degrees of fading differs. Even if the guy's face is handsome today, will you dump him in the later stage if both of you age?

[Guest Karma]

  On 10/18/2020 at 8:07 AM, sum1outhere_03 said:

 

I'm concerned for you cos humans (male or female) age and the degrees of fading differs. Even if the guy's face is handsome today, will you dump him in the later stage if both of you age?

Expand  

You like him because he’s cute.

you dump him because he’s no longer handsome as he grows old. I think it’s karma. Because you also grow old Liao 

 

[tic-toc]

  On 10/17/2020 at 5:07 PM, Guest Cannot make it said:

My bf need not be handsome 

but if his face cannot make it and I need to face him for life, I rather be alone. 

at first look, I must like him. As he aged, I don’t mind him growing old, haggard or fat. It’s nature that ppl grow old. But already CMI at first look then move on for both party. 

Expand  

 

  On 10/18/2020 at 1:35 AM, Guest jjlin said:

If EVERYTHING else is good, personality, compatibility, physique, kkj, etc

then maybe worth giving it a chance

 

Expand  

 

It is disheartening that many of us go through life with a checklist or a shopping list. How we choose school subjects, career, and even down to who to love is all geared towards rationality and elimination of the probability to failure. 

    looks ok = check

    stable job = check

    kkj working = check

    nice character = check

    right age = check

5/5? Then he is the one to pursue. The next guy only has 4 out of 5 checks so he is to be put aside (or worse, discarded and not to be considered anymore). If the former guy is not successful, then this guy will be the next.  This seems a little mechanical and methodical that a robot will do. Fortunately and unfortunately love does not work this way.  You cannot choose this guy first then afterwards you decide to love him. Many times you love someone for no reason at all. It's later that you find out so many virtue in him. 

 

 

 

 

 

[tomcat]

  On 10/17/2020 at 3:51 PM, Greenliv said:

Call it shallow, call it superficial. But that's the dilemma.

 

Someone with a pleasant face is always easier to look at and communicate. Otherwise, with a CMI face, it may perhaps take a long long while to overcome the mental hurdle of wanting him as a bf.

 

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, but face CMI to the beholder, will the RS die off after a trying period?

Expand  

For me, the face is important, even more than body or other outward appearance.

 

My partner has eyes that I want to look into every day, until we are old.

 

His smile still makes me feel happy seeing it. His excitement over certain things reminds me why I fell in love with him.

 

Even though now we are nearing 10 years together and he is older, the eyes still carry the shine of when we first met.

 

And even sometimes when we fight or disagree, his face become black or ugly, I am reminded of how he looks when he is happy.

 

And I know that we wont be angry for very long, and soon happy or normal again. 

 

Face is important because it is literally what you look at when you communicate. 

 

To those who don't get it, they will say, "wah so shallow", but it is the face that we are wired biologically to imprint as a loved one,

 

Whether as a mother, brother, best friend or life partner,

 

they might not be handsome or beautiful, but their face brings you warmth, trust and familiarity.

 

So to disregard the face, is kind of going against what makes us human!

(Obviously, this only applies to sighted people. Blind people imprint by touch, smell and other senses, in replacement of visual recognition)

[FattChoy]

  On 10/17/2020 at 3:51 PM, Greenliv said:

Call it shallow, call it superficial. But that's the dilemma.

 

Someone with a pleasant face is always easier to look at and communicate. Otherwise, with a CMI face, it may perhaps take a long long while to overcome the mental hurdle of wanting him as a bf.

 

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, but face CMI to the beholder, will the RS die off after a trying period?

Expand  

 

"I can't characterize the facts in a hypothetical situation, and I can't apply the law to a hypothetical set of facts," (Amy Coney Barrett, 2020)

[Steve5380]

  On 10/18/2020 at 3:19 PM, FattChoy said:

 

"I can't characterize the facts in a hypothetical situation, and I can't apply the law to a hypothetical set of facts," (Amy Coney Barrett, 2020)

Expand  

 

What she says is completely false.

 

This entitled witch knows how despised her ideologies are, so she is not going to reveal them.  And she knows that no matter what,  she will be confirmed for political reasons. 

[Greenliv]

  On 10/18/2020 at 3:03 PM, tomcat said:

For me, the face is important, even more than body or other outward appearance.

 

My partner has eyes that I want to look into every day, until we are old.

 

His smile still makes me feel happy seeing it. His excitement over certain things reminds me why I fell in love with him.

 

Even though now we are nearing 10 years together and he is older, the eyes still carry the shine of when we first met.

 

And even sometimes when we fight or disagree, his face become black or ugly, I am reminded of how he looks when he is happy.

 

And I know that we wont be angry for very long, and soon happy or normal again. 

 

Face is important because it is literally what you look at when you communicate. 

 

To those who don't get it, they will say, "wah so shallow", but it is the face that we are wired biologically to imprint as a loved one,

 

Whether as a mother, brother, best friend or life partner,

 

they might not be handsome or beautiful, but their face brings you warmth, trust and familiarity.

 

So to disregard the face, is kind of going against what makes us human!

(Obviously, this only applies to sighted people. Blind people imprint by touch, smell and other senses, in replacement of visual recognition)

Expand  

Wow! Exact. My sentiments too.

 

Really happy for you to have found someone who can make you forget about hunger whenever you look at the face.

 

A good commentary with good prose and paragraphing. 

 

I am going to follow you. Well-placed words simply swoon me. 

 

[Guest You find him]

  On 10/18/2020 at 9:00 PM, Greenliv said:

Wow! Exact. My sentiments too.

 

Really happy for you to have found someone who can make you forget about hunger whenever you look at the face.

 

A good commentary with good prose and paragraphing. 

 

I am going to follow you. Well-placed words simply swoon me. 

 

Expand  

Can I suggest both of you to be together? Then both of you can help us to solve two problems at one go? Then we have Two less problems in this forum! Seems to be a great idea!

[benedict5856]

  On 10/17/2020 at 3:51 PM, Greenliv said:

Call it shallow, call it superficial. But that's the dilemma.

 

Someone with a pleasant face is always easier to look at and communicate. Otherwise, with a CMI face, it may perhaps take a long long while to overcome the mental hurdle of wanting him as a bf.

 

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, but face CMI to the beholder, will the RS die off after a trying period?

Expand  

 

Many of us are shallow.....

We will dress good to impress others.

We will wear branded to impress others.

We will go gym carry weight to impress others. (most common in gays) MachoMary materials.

We will drive big car big house to impress others.

Some ppl are not shallow, and they will come out with of theories about how to live a life, about how a casio watch tells u the same time as a Patek Philippe watch.

I would rather wear a PP watch, where ppl will start starring at my hand.

 

For me, life is short, go for the best.

if the person is UGLY, but has a kind heart..... mostly they can only be friends to me.

Sooo ugly, how to get erected????

When u meet yr friends, would u introduce yr bf to them?! first thing inside their mind - he is rich ah. Next, they will ask u, u can erect mehz?

Then someone will say, beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder....

which means, ALL your friends said yr bf is damn ugly, only u find him handsome. Pathetic, isn't it.

There are many choices in life, find another guy.

 

Also, if a person is ugly, how would he attract ppl when all his facial surgical failed?! he only can display kind hearted to attract ppl.

But for sure, he will be lonely at sauna, bcas no one will bothered to approach him, or shake off his hands when he tried to touch others.

But if a person is handsome, ugly character will tend to portray more. but still, he will have no lack of guys.

So will RS last long? U should ask yourself, will u even wanna start from the beginning???!?!?!!

I won't..... unless he is damn filthy rich and i will wait for him to die faster and i can inherit all his wealth.

[Guest Peebo]

This isn't unique to LGBTQ folks. All people tend to gravitate towards other people who they view as attractive. Especially in situations where u dont know anything about someone's personality or behavior, the only thing that would actually make you want to get to know more about him is if u find him attractive enough.

[Greenliv]

  On 10/18/2020 at 11:20 PM, Guest You find him said:

Can I suggest both of you to be together? Then both of you can help us to solve two problems at one go? Then we have Two less problems in this forum! Seems to be a great idea!

Expand  

Why are we problems to you? You go looking for problems? 

[Why?]

  On 10/19/2020 at 12:52 AM, Guest Peebo said:

This isn't unique to LGBTQ folks. All people tend to gravitate towards other people who they view as attractive. Especially in situations where u dont know anything about someone's personality or behavior, the only thing that would actually make you want to get to know more about him is if u find him attractive enough.

Expand  

It is called window shopping.  You needs to be attracted to something physically first before you get to know him.  How do one explain the billion dollars beauty industry and advertisement industry?   It happens for a reason.

[Guest Same Song Different Lyric]

  On 10/17/2020 at 3:51 PM, Greenliv said:

Call it shallow, call it superficial. But that's the dilemma.

 

Someone with a pleasant face is always easier to look at and communicate. Otherwise, with a CMI face, it may perhaps take a long long while to overcome the mental hurdle of wanting him as a bf.

 

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, but face CMI to the beholder, will the RS die off after a trying period?

Expand  

 

Let's reverse the situation.

 

So, you are with a can-make-it face (obviously you think you have it) but everything (yes!!!, everything and everything about you is NOT good), what do you think of the chance of you having a partner, a relationship, a good friend?

 

While a CMI face may possibly know his reason for not able to have others "wanting him as a bf", will the CMI attitude/character/mindset put you in the same shoe where non shallow humans shun upon you?  Ever wonder on the mystery on divine creation?

[Guest -_-]

as long as the face is pleasing to the eyes - OK

Don't have to be movie star handsome, right?

[Greenliv]

  On 10/20/2020 at 9:25 AM, Guest -_- said:

as long as the face is pleasing to the eyes - OK

Don't have to be movie star handsome, right?

Expand  

Of course, but must be pleasing to your own eyes and not other people's eyes. 

[Greenliv]

  On 10/20/2020 at 7:25 AM, Guest Same Song Different Lyric said:

 

Let's reverse the situation.

 

So, you are with a can-make-it face (obviously you think you have it) but everything (yes!!!, everything and everything about you is NOT good), what do you think of the chance of you having a partner, a relationship, a good friend?

 

While a CMI face may possibly know his reason for not able to have others "wanting him as a bf", will the CMI attitude/character/mindset put you in the same shoe where non shallow humans shun upon you?  Ever wonder on the mystery on divine creation?

Expand  

Reverse logic does not always work in a discussion. 

 

There are always people who fall heads over heels over a good looking face, regardless of any eventualities. 

 

The crux of the matter is not whether I think I have the face or not, but whether the other party likes my face or not. 

 

A nice face can always melt the iron heart. 

[Greenliv]

  On 10/20/2020 at 7:25 AM, Guest Same Song Different Lyric said:

 

Let's reverse the situation.

 

So, you are with a can-make-it face (obviously you think you have it) but everything (yes!!!, everything and everything about you is NOT good), what do you think of the chance of you having a partner, a relationship, a good friend?

 

While a CMI face may possibly know his reason for not able to have others "wanting him as a bf", will the CMI attitude/character/mindset put you in the same shoe where non shallow humans shun upon you?  Ever wonder on the mystery on divine creation?

Expand  

Btw, read my other post somewhere on the four quadrants of life, (with an ignorant acknowledgement from a monkey guest) and you may not need to wonder on the mystery on divine creation. 

Edited October 20, 2020 by Greenliv

[Greenliv]

  On 10/20/2020 at 9:50 AM, Greenliv said:

Btw, read my other post somewhere on the four quadrants of life, and you may not need to wonder on the mystery on divine creation. 

Expand  

 

[fenghou]

There was a gay friend of mine who was nice to me, patient with me and always there for me.

 

But other than the lack of spark, I find him to be completely physically unattractive.

I tried forcing myself on him and it failed.

I'm not looking for someone who's too handsome, but minimally someone must  be your type.

[Greenliv]

  On 10/20/2020 at 11:23 AM, fenghou said:

There was a gay friend of mine who was nice to me, patient with me and always there for me.

 

But other than the lack of spark, I find him to be completely physically unattractive.

I tried forcing myself on him and it failed.

I'm not looking for someone who's too handsome, but minimally someone must  be your type.

Expand  

So you concur that you cannot overlook the facial appearance part, because he is not attractive in your eyes, and in your eyes only. 

[fenghou]

 

He is not ugly but definitely not handsome

 

I'm not saying your life partner must be someone good looking, but he must be someone who you don't mind looking at or at minimum can get an erection on without forcing yourself.

 

beauty fades eventually

but if you like seafood why force yourself on beef?

Edited October 20, 2020 by fenghou

[Greenliv]

  On 10/20/2020 at 12:14 PM, fenghou said:

 

He is not ugly but definitely not handsome

 

I'm not saying your life partner must be someone good looking, but he must be someone who you don't mind looking at or at minimum can get an erection on without forcing yourself.

 

beauty fades eventually

but if you like seafood why force yourself on beef?

Expand  

Yes, as I have mentioned before, nobody is ugly per se. But I think you are definitely better looking, so your level of beauty is a notch higher. 

 

I am fully accept your point of view. But honestly, erection can be achieved in the dark through touch and not look. 

 

BTW, having beef is a luxury. Hahaha.

 

But if I like seafood, why must I force myself on a shrimp. 

 

 

[fenghou]

But if I like seafood, why must I force myself on a shrimp. 

 

You got it girl.

So don't be too hard on yourself. You like who you like according to what you want. No need to compare if your "wants" are reasonable unless you're delusional. But you clearly aren't

[Greenliv]

  On 10/20/2020 at 12:51 PM, fenghou said:

But if I like seafood, why must I force myself on a shrimp. 

 

You got it girl.

So don't be too hard on yourself. You like who you like according to what you want. No need to compare if your "wants" are reasonable unless you're delusional. But you clearly aren't

Expand  

That's what I mean, you don't have to force yourself on a shrimp if your beauty level is on a lobster. 

 

But don't call me girl - it's condescending and totally inappropriate in my case. 

 

But I am trying to be more accommodating and maybe try to look for certain features of the face to convince myself not to be too hard on a person - like saying, he has nice pair of ears, or nice eyebrows, or nice nostrils lol. 

[Void1376]

  On 10/20/2020 at 1:01 PM, Greenliv said:

That's what I mean, you don't have to force yourself on a shrimp if your beauty level is on a lobster. 

 

But don't call me girl - it's condescending and totally inappropriate in my case. 

 

But I am trying to be more accommodating and maybe try to look for certain features of the face to convince myself not to be too hard on a person - like saying, he has nice pair of ears, or nice eyebrows, or nice nostrils lol. 

Expand  

To each his own. Are you forced to make a choice or are you forcing yourself to make a choice? I personally think that the more you try to convince yourself otherwise (in terms of attraction), the worst it will get.

[Greenliv]

  On 10/20/2020 at 3:20 PM, Void1376 said:

To each his own. Are you forced to make a choice or are you forcing yourself to make a choice? I personally think that the more you try to convince yourself otherwise (in terms of attraction), the worst it will get.

Expand  

Maybe you're right. But surely it's fair to the other party if one is more encompassing and less critical and exacting on the face appearance. 

 

Like I mentioned before, it's a dilemma. 

[Void1376]

  On 10/20/2020 at 8:10 PM, Greenliv said:

Maybe you're right. But surely it's fair to the other party if one is more encompassing and less critical and exacting on the face appearance. 

 

Like I mentioned before, it's a dilemma. 

Expand  

The dilemma is your own self creation. Justifying on fairness on the other party doesn't make the decision any simpler but only to complicate matters even more. Relationships should be more a matter of the heart than the mind. It's not easy trying to create a checklist of pros and cons in order to make yourself happier in a relationship.

[Greenliv]

  On 10/21/2020 at 4:15 PM, Void1376 said:

Relationships should be more a matter of the heart than the mind.

Expand  

Really? I thought it should be more a matter of give and take - of pros and cons.