Neigbourhood kid crying daily

[Guest Six]

Have you spare a thought for the parents? They got it worse than you and pretty sure they feel like killing the child when they're the first receiving ends. Yes their child their karma.

 

Worst if kid got down syndrome, they have to support the child for life literally. I pity the parents. Some years back, there's a news report of a father pushing his down syndrome daughter down the flat because he is old and can't support her forever. Very sad case... 

[Guest Noisy]

I stayed at the top floor and a new neighbor with 3 kids and a maid moved in recently. The youngest around 1 year old keeps crying as well. The mum from China speaks so loud and the maid too. Love to open their main door where the whole floor can hear them. I have called the police and HDB. They are so unreasonable and selfish. They have requested that I move out and said that hdb is like that. I find it ridiculous that instead of them being  more considerate and they can in fact close their doors but they have used their kids as their self entitlement and rights that they can make noise and we have to endure. It's a mental torture every day. I have to go out till late every day...Sigh...

[Firday]

1 hour ago, Guest Noisy said:

I stayed at the top floor and a new neighbor with 3 kids and a maid moved in recently. The youngest around 1 year old keeps crying as well. The mum from China speaks so loud and the maid too. Love to open their main door where the whole floor can hear them. I have called the police and HDB. They are so unreasonable and selfish. They have requested that I move out and said that hdb is like that. I find it ridiculous that instead of them being  more considerate and they can in fact close their doors but they have used their kids as their self entitlement and rights that they can make noise and we have to endure. It's a mental torture every day. I have to go out till late every day...Sigh...

You start from Police and HDB is banging wall !

 

Try to go meet people session with your police report as back up - then go to Town council next.

 

Request for official letter then re visit HDB@woodland to file an offical investigation on the them - bcz HDB have the authorise to ask them to shift or move out after investigation being done. Normally, they won't dare to offend HDB authority and good luck to you.

 

If you want speedy response, get a reporter from wanbao or sin ming to broadcast for you lor - must have video clip proof.

 

After the reporting, you can either relocation or stay on depend on the outcome.

 

I suggest you talk nicely to them first, before start filing your complaints.

 

[Firday]

i got same issue like you too !

 

i buy them sweet, toys and ask them not to scream during playtimes but usually they forget when playtimes so i put on sound cancelling ear plug during their play times period.

 

so far so good - there no perfect solution but self adaption.

 

[Guest guest]

Too many selfish, insensitive and inconsiderate people around. 

[Steve5380]

4 hours ago, Guest guest said:

Too many selfish, insensitive and inconsiderate people around. 

 

The root of the problem may be the lack of land in SG that forces people to live in cramped public housing.

 

Come to America, with plenty of empty land. 

 

My neighbors may not be less selfish, insensitive, inconsiderate as yours.  But we live in individual family houses on lots that are large enough so that we don't hear each other.  I rarely see any neighbors, just wink to them but rarely talk with them.  And there is never a sound from them,  not even a barking dog.

  

 

[Guest Lovehandle]

10 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

The root of the problem may be the lack of land in SG that forces people to live in cramped public housing.

 

Come to America, with plenty of empty land. 

 

My neighbors may not be less selfish, insensitive, inconsiderate as yours.  But we live in individual family houses on lots that are large enough so that we don't hear each other.  I rarely see any neighbors, just wink to them but rarely talk with them.  And there is never a sound from them,  not even a barking dog.

  

 

That is a selfish, insensitive and inconsiderate thing to say

[Steve5380]

26 minutes ago, Guest Lovehandle said:

That is a selfish, insensitive and inconsiderate thing to say

 

I am sorry!  But why is that selfish, insensitive and inconsiderate?   On the contrary,  I try to explain that one should not be so quick to blame neighbors for being selfish, insensitive and inconsiderate, and this goes for posters too.

[FattChoy]

2 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

I am sorry!  But why is that selfish, insensitive and inconsiderate?   On the contrary,  I try to explain that one should not be so quick to blame neighbors for being selfish, insensitive and inconsiderate, and this goes for posters too.

Don't be sorry.  The truth hurts.  It's impossible to  reason with some ppl.

Edited February 4, 2021 by FattChoy

[koganei83]

On 1/23/2021 at 11:44 PM, Firday said:

thank everyone for the input.

 

i talk to a senior neigbourhood to go advise them : the outcome is :

1. The dad also suffer as much as me and the neigbour

2. both parent can't do much about it bcz the boy like to cry

3. they ask us to bear until end of this years to shift out

4. the couple promise to bring the crying kid to outside or downstair

 

based on the senior experience, she say some kid are having issue to adjust their discomfort,

maybe i heard ghost noise

or tv crying noise

or that no crying but i imagination.

 

i will not make any police report, TC and MP meet session bcz i can't afford to be the "troublemaker" bcz it seem family is alway their favouritism than single hood. 

 

i just bought a noise cancelling headphone from challenger

Next i really think the kid is having down syndrome

lastly, i decide to wait until end of this years for them to move out.

 

my secret weapon is spread about their kid issue at the coffeeshop so that everyone will gossip why their kid like that so that exert some pressure on them. Maybe weekend they go back to grand parent house to hide.

 

 

what a selfish entitled sickening POS u r. i hope they gossiped about what a slut u r and bring all kinds of dirty men and moan loudest. an eye for an eye u know u sick f**k and be born as a idiot in your next pathetic life 

[Guest Derelict]

On 2/2/2021 at 12:48 PM, Guest Six said:

Have you spare a thought for the parents? They got it worse than you and pretty sure they feel like killing the child when they're the first receiving ends. Yes their child their karma.

 

Worst if kid got down syndrome, they have to support the child for life literally. I pity the parents. Some years back, there's a news report of a father pushing his down syndrome daughter down the flat because he is old and can't support her forever. Very sad case... 

Hope you get such a neighbour soonest. Because of your understanding and tolerance, the parents will be very thankful to have you next to them.  

 

 

[Firday]

9 hours ago, koganei83 said:

 

what a selfish entitled sickening POS u r. i hope they gossiped about what a slut u r and bring all kinds of dirty men and moan loudest. an eye for an eye u know u sick f**k and be born as a idiot in your next pathetic life 

noted with thank - no reply comment immediate.

[Guest Noisy]

On 2/3/2021 at 5:17 PM, Firday said:

i got same issue like you too !

 

i buy them sweet, toys and ask them not to scream during playtimes but usually they forget when playtimes so i put on sound cancelling ear plug during their play times period.

 

so far so good - there no perfect solution but self adaption.

 

So do they close their doors when playing? 

[Guest bark]

At our area we got more the problem of barking dogs. There is some neighbour who leaves the dog always at the backyard when they are out or don't want the dog inside the flat, then the dog barks incessantly for hours. Have not figured out which unit is the culprit. The barking can go until 2am at night. The problem is the direct neighbours never confront the people, they must be suffering the most, but seems no complaint. Going on for more than 2 months already. Too many people holding these dogs nowadays.

[sum1outhere_03]

Hi all,

 

Sorry @Firday I'm hijacking your thread as relating to neighbours.

Just want to share the following links for those who have relatively "lousy" neighbour (on purpose, i.e.).

 

https://singaporelegaladvice.com/law-articles/what-if-my-neighbour-creates-a-disturbance-or-deliberately-tries-to-annoy-me/

 

Usually HDB/ town council will encourage us to do mediation first before seeking legal advise.

 

In my case, my experience with my lousy neighbour is that they like to on and off burn those smelly incense sticks (ironically it's not their religion to pracitise that). Initially we thought it was because my mom used to burn joss paper outside the house which might have caused distress but apprently even after we stopped burning eventually, they still burn their sticks. I almost wanted to go for legal as part of "Causing excessive noise, smell, smoke, light or vibration". Before anyone jumps into conclusion, we "tried" to talk to them but they are by default pretty vulgar despite them being religious. Hence mediation for our case doesn't work.

[Guest Guest]

On 2/2/2021 at 10:23 AM, Firday said:

latest update :

The young parent were interview by social worker on the autism crying kid - they have move "crying" to their parent place. Aplogise to me and the rest of neigbourhood with basket of biscuit,instant mee and cakes for the inconvience cause to us.

 

Did you return their kindness with some gold ingots for using your "secret weapon" of spreading about their kid issue at the coffeeshop so that everyone will gossip why their kid like that? If they had apologize to you and the rest of neighborhood with basket of biscuit, instant mee and cakes for the inconvenience cause to you, then you should also apologize to them with gold ingots for the toxicity caused to them. 

 

If not, karma may start charging you interest as the days go by.  

[Guest Guest Noisy]

12 hours ago, sum1outhere_03 said:

Hi all,

 

Sorry @Firday I'm hijacking your thread as relating to neighbours.

Just want to share the following links for those who have relatively "lousy" neighbour (on purpose, i.e.).

 

https://singaporelegaladvice.com/law-articles/what-if-my-neighbour-creates-a-disturbance-or-deliberately-tries-to-annoy-me/

 

Usually HDB/ town council will encourage us to do mediation first before seeking legal advise.

 

In my case, my experience with my lousy neighbour is that they like to on and off burn those smelly incense sticks (ironically it's not their religion to pracitise that). Initially we thought it was because my mom used to burn joss paper outside the house which might have caused distress but apprently even after we stopped burning eventually, they still burn their sticks. I almost wanted to go for legal as part of "Causing excessive noise, smell, smoke, light or vibration". Before anyone jumps into conclusion, we "tried" to talk to them but they are by default pretty vulgar despite them being religious. Hence mediation for our case doesn't work.

Thank you. I believe they stay beside you? Are you all still in talking terms with that neighbor? How do you feel having to walk pass them or bumping into them?

[sum1outhere_03]

Yes they stay on our left. Hence we justify ourselves that we will continue to burn our joss paper as religious practice since their burning of smelly stick is not despite multiple complaints to our incompetent Town Councils an even MP (not even responding). We try to avoid physical contacts now. I'll usually ignore them even if we have eye contacts. I will at most have evil thoughts about the male owner that he gets raped lol

[Guest burn]

14 hours ago, sum1outhere_03 said:

Hi all,

 

Sorry @Firday I'm hijacking your thread as relating to neighbours.

Just want to share the following links for those who have relatively "lousy" neighbour (on purpose, i.e.).

 

https://singaporelegaladvice.com/law-articles/what-if-my-neighbour-creates-a-disturbance-or-deliberately-tries-to-annoy-me/

 

Usually HDB/ town council will encourage us to do mediation first before seeking legal advise.

 

In my case, my experience with my lousy neighbour is that they like to on and off burn those smelly incense sticks (ironically it's not their religion to pracitise that). Initially we thought it was because my mom used to burn joss paper outside the house which might have caused distress but apprently even after we stopped burning eventually, they still burn their sticks. I almost wanted to go for legal as part of "Causing excessive noise, smell, smoke, light or vibration". Before anyone jumps into conclusion, we "tried" to talk to them but they are by default pretty vulgar despite them being religious. Hence mediation for our case doesn't work.

 

Can always change the thread to a general one; problems with neighbours, noise, kids, encroaching flower pots.

Had a funny experience just some days ago when a friend was visiting and while waiting for the lift the friend said this house in front of the door always looks so messy, when just the door opened and a lady from that flat walked outside. ha ha.

 

The issue with incense sticks is: How often is it? Is it at odd times? There is a tolerance level.

At HDB you should be used for some neighbours burning their incense sticks at sunset or sunrise.

Some people do meditation while such sticks burn. Other people burn these incense sticks (if you talk about the Indian type) to shy away mosquitos.  If it is only once a day between 7am to 10pm I don't think you can do much.

 

In case of my parents what helped was: Taking the most strong incense sticks bought at a shop in Little India and burn them every day (sandalwood and musk smell are quite strong). Don't burn just one but burn 5 of them at the same time. Then if the wind direction is good, it will flow into their flat. Some people only learn when they feel themselves what happens.

But you need to check the wind direction. if not you annoy the neighbours on the wrong side.

In my parent's case it helped. The neighbours stopped burning the sticks once they suffered the strong smoke and smell.

If you spray just a tiny bit of water, the smoke will be even worse.

 

Hopefully we won't read about you in the Straits Times ...

 

 

 

[Guest kids]

On 1/24/2021 at 12:15 AM, Firday said:

my female boss say  :

 

make police report then file official complaint to TC and MP session.

next ask newpaper reporter to disgrace them !

or 

 

find another job !

 

anyway she unmarried - heartless, emotionless and not very "clever type"

 

i tender my resignation few day ago bcz of the stress from the down sydnrome kid ! 

 

 

If the kid is handicapped nothing much you can complain.

But usually the down syndrome kids don't get so raunchy. seem the parents don't have the tool to handle the kid.

 

How many times do you want to resign from your job? I don't think this is a good solution too.

 

Often the parents don't attend to their kids. Kids are seeking for attention, but parents keep them alone or don't talk much to them, then the kids start making trouble. It is no other with handicapped kids, and I would say, they even need much more attention.

And some parents start getting aggressive toward their handicapped kids, because they are stressed out. Kids then reciprocate.  This is not the solution but escalates the problems.

Would be good if the parents can seek some teaching on how to best handle a down syndrome kid.

 

 

 

[Guest nasty proposal]

14 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

 

Did you return their kindness with some gold ingots for using your "secret weapon" of spreading about their kid issue at the coffeeshop so that everyone will gossip why their kid like that? If they had apologize to you and the rest of neighborhood with basket of biscuit, instant mee and cakes for the inconvenience cause to you, then you should also apologize to them with gold ingots for the toxicity caused to them. 

 

If not, karma may start charging you interest as the days go by.  

Increasing the stress to the parents is surely not the solution to handle the matter.

You don't have any consideration for handicapped kids. Your proposal is nothing other than nasty and causing severe backlash.

In the end the parents punish the kid for something it can't do about. Then the problems just get bigger.

You better do some prayers to come back to graciousness (if you still know what this word means, which I doubt so).

 

[Firday]

14 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

 

Did you return their kindness with some gold ingots for using your "secret weapon" of spreading about their kid issue at the coffeeshop so that everyone will gossip why their kid like that? If they had apologize to you and the rest of neighborhood with basket of biscuit, instant mee and cakes for the inconvenience cause to you, then you should also apologize to them with gold ingots for the toxicity caused to them. 

 

If not, karma may start charging you interest as the days go by.  

i just say for the sake of anger inside me - i didn't spreading the kid issue at the coffeeshop nor shame them - just my anger gesture lah.

 

 

[Firday]

Just now, Guest nasty proposal said:

Increasing the stress to the parents is surely not the solution to handle the matter.

You don't have any consideration for handicapped kids. Your proposal is nothing other than nasty and causing severe backlash.

In the end the parents punish the kid for something it can't do about. Then the problems just get bigger.

You better do some prayers to come back to graciousness (if you still know what this word means, which I doubt so).

 

read my latest remark : just a thought in my mind

 

[singalion]

On 2/4/2021 at 1:14 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

The root of the problem may be the lack of land in SG that forces people to live in cramped public housing.

 

Come to America, with plenty of empty land. 

 

My neighbors may not be less selfish, insensitive, inconsiderate as yours.  But we live in individual family houses on lots that are large enough so that we don't hear each other.  I rarely see any neighbors, just wink to them but rarely talk with them.  And there is never a sound from them,  not even a barking dog.

  

 

Until the day you might be shot dead from one of your neighbours. haha

 

It might be in Texas but as much as I know there are big cities in the US too. neighbours live close together in those cities. Not all areas are like texas. You always see things just from your own personal experience but often lack the oversight. Not all live like you. 

 

[sum1outhere_03]

2 hours ago, Guest burn said:

 

Can always change the thread to a general one; problems with neighbours, noise, kids, encroaching flower pots.

Had a funny experience just some days ago when a friend was visiting and while waiting for the lift the friend said this house in front of the door always looks so messy, when just the door opened and a lady from that flat walked outside. ha ha.

 

The issue with incense sticks is: How often is it? Is it at odd times? There is a tolerance level.

At HDB you should be used for some neighbours burning their incense sticks at sunset or sunrise.

Some people do meditation while such sticks burn. Other people burn these incense sticks (if you talk about the Indian type) to shy away mosquitos.  If it is only once a day between 7am to 10pm I don't think you can do much.

 

In case of my parents what helped was: Taking the most strong incense sticks bought at a shop in Little India and burn them every day (sandalwood and musk smell are quite strong). Don't burn just one but burn 5 of them at the same time. Then if the wind direction is good, it will flow into their flat. Some people only learn when they feel themselves what happens.

But you need to check the wind direction. if not you annoy the neighbours on the wrong side.

In my parent's case it helped. The neighbours stopped burning the sticks once they suffered the strong smoke and smell.

If you spray just a tiny bit of water, the smoke will be even worse.

 

Hopefully we won't read about you in the Straits Times ...

I don't mind getting interviewed by ST actually.

 

Well, they are actually Muslim neighbours (if I have to spell that out). I don't want to mention religion because it can get quite sensitive, and I'm very sure they burn these sticks just to spike our anger. From the limited knowledge I know about the Islamic faith, it's pretty unnecessary to burn the incense sticks (even if it's for the purpose of warding off evils, my understanding is that it should be done on Fridays. Otherwise they can do their prayer at home). Their burning are not consistent- it's either they don't burn for quite some time (I.e during covid phase 1) or they can burn 2-3x a week even. The recent one is just this afternoon- my parents burn some joss papers and they noticed. Then they in turn burn their sticks. The smell usually enter our flat so we have no choice but to shut out windows and doors.

 

For the Muslims community, pls correct me if my understanding is wrong. Thanks! 😊

Edited February 10, 2021 by sum1outhere_03

[Guest Guest Noisy]

1 hour ago, sum1outhere_03 said:

I don't mind getting interviewed by ST actually.

 

Well, they are actually Muslim neighbours (if I have to spell that out). I don't want to mention religion because it can get quite sensitive, and I'm very sure they burn these sticks just to spike our anger. From the limited knowledge I know about the Islamic faith, it's pretty unnecessary to burn the incense sticks (even if it's for the purpose of warding off evils, my understanding is that it should be done on Fridays. Otherwise they can do their prayer at home). Their burning are not consistent- it's either they don't burn for quite some time (I.e during covid phase 1) or they can burn 2-3x a week even. The recent one is just this afternoon- my parents burn some joss papers and they noticed. Then they in turn burn their sticks. The smell usually enter our flat so we have no choice but to shut out windows and doors.

 

For the Muslims community, pls correct me if my understanding is wrong. Thanks! 😊

Isn't it stressful to leave beside such a neighbor? I find it a mental torture having screaming kids now and then that will shock you. Is like you don't know when it will come and give you a heart attack. You will need to be on guard. Anyone have the same thought? How do you cope and find peace while at home? My friends just say to ignore but I find it difficult to do so.  Appreciate any thoughts .

[Guest Wondering Much]

1 hour ago, sum1outhere_03 said:

I don't mind getting interviewed by ST actually.

 

Well, they are actually Muslim neighbours (if I have to spell that out). I don't want to mention religion because it can get quite sensitive, and I'm very sure they burn these sticks just to spike our anger. From the limited knowledge I know about the Islamic faith, it's pretty unnecessary to burn the incense sticks (even if it's for the purpose of warding off evils, my understanding is that it should be done on Fridays. Otherwise they can do their prayer at home). Their burning are not consistent- it's either they don't burn for quite some time (I.e during covid phase 1) or they can burn 2-3x a week even. The recent one is just this afternoon- my parents burn some joss papers and they noticed. Then they in turn burn their sticks. The smell usually enter our flat so we have no choice but to shut out windows and doors.

 

For the Muslims community, pls correct me if my understanding is wrong. Thanks! 😊

 

This is what I know. 

 

Muslims all over the world burn incense as cleansing and purification purposes.  There is no specific day to do it but most Muslim households prefer Thursday evening.

 

Roman Catholics burn incense too.  Some households burn it on Sundays.

 

BTW, why does your mother burn joss paper outside the house, which I assume is along the corridor.  Isn't NEA already recommended such burning should be at:

 

According to NEA:  "they should burn paper offerings using enclosed containers or containers provided by the Town Councils at various locations within the estates and not damage public property by burning indiscriminately on pavements, common corridors, void decks and other common property. NEA is also working with various religious organisations to reach out to their members in this regard".

 

Personally, to choose between incense and burning of joss paper, I tolerate better with the incense.    To some of us, the Chinese, when we burn the joss paper will actually pollute the environment more.  Plus, when it is windy, the burned paper will fly up and go into all the neighbours houses.

 

 

[sum1outhere_03]

46 minutes ago, Guest Wondering Much said:

 

This is what I know. 

 

Muslims all over the world burn incense as cleansing and purification purposes.  There is no specific day to do it but most Muslim households prefer Thursday evening.

 

Roman Catholics burn incense too.  Some households burn it on Sundays.

 

BTW, why does your mother burn joss paper outside the house, which I assume is along the corridor.  Isn't NEA already recommended such burning should be at:

 

According to NEA:  "they should burn paper offerings using enclosed containers or containers provided by the Town Councils at various locations within the estates and not damage public property by burning indiscriminately on pavements, common corridors, void decks and other common property. NEA is also working with various religious organisations to reach out to their members in this regard".

 

Personally, to choose between incense and burning of joss paper, I tolerate better with the incense.    To some of us, the Chinese, when we burn the joss paper will actually pollute the environment more.  Plus, when it is windy, the burned paper will fly up and go into all the neighbours houses.

 

Thanks guest.

 

The next 2 questions are - how many sticks can be burnt at one time, and where?

 

At least, RCs do only once a week.

 

Take a look at this youtube video which I took (yes I dont mind showing my face in the YT profile lol) They are burning at the flower pots near our house so the smoke blows to my flat. Most of the times, the burn in the afternoon. A few times they even burn in the dawn (like 6ish AM or late at night like 11pm).

 

Yes we know the guidelines to that - in fact, my mom has stopped buring outside even before COVID. but once the Phase 2 started, their nonsense started again. I have another OneService app which I have all the listing of the reported cases. 

 

And to be fair, the joss papers are in small amounts (not those throw all over kind) and usuakky distinguished within 10-15 mins but the sticks could last about 45mins max (if they intended to put more).

 

So I told my mom, since they couldn't stop their habit of burning, we can justify ourselves to continue to burn regardless what they do.

 

Since it's a long weekend for CNY, I got a feeling they'd do that again.

 

This was Dec 25 (on a Fri), on a holiday when Town councils could not disturb them hence:

 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by sum1outhere_03

[Guest Guest]

1 hour ago, sum1outhere_03 said:

Thanks guest.

 

The next 2 questions are - how many sticks can be burnt at one time, and where?

 

At least, RCs do only once a week.

 

Take a look at this youtube video which I took (yes I dont mind showing my face in the YT profile lol) They are burning at the flower pots near our house so the smoke blows to my flat. Most of the times, the burn in the afternoon. A few times they even burn in the dawn (like 6ish AM or late at night like 11pm).

 

Yes we know the guidelines to that - in fact, my mom has stopped buring outside even before COVID. but once the Phase 2 started, their nonsense started again. I have another OneService app which I have all the listing of the reported cases. 

 

And to be fair, the joss papers are in small amounts (not those throw all over kind) and usuakky distinguished within 10-15 mins but the sticks could last about 45mins max (if they intended to put more).

 

So I told my mom, since they couldn't stop their habit of burning, we can justify ourselves to continue to burn regardless what they do.

 

Since it's a long weekend for CNY, I got a feeling they'd do that again.

 

This was Dec 25 (on a Fri), on a holiday when Town councils could not disturb them hence:

 

 

 

 

My neighbour is a Hindu.  He burns incense outside his house every day, morning and night.  And, on another floor, I have a Taoist neighbour that burns incense outside the house too.

 

Yes, whether it is incense or joss paper, there will always be debris / ashes left behind.  Whether it burns for 15 mins or 45 mins , it does not make any difference.

 

Looking at your video, your neighbour's corridor is clean and neat.  Hehe, any video of your mum burning the joss paper and its surrounding area?

 

 

 

 

[singalion]

3 hours ago, sum1outhere_03 said:

I don't mind getting interviewed by ST actually.

 

Well, they are actually Muslim neighbours (if I have to spell that out). I don't want to mention religion because it can get quite sensitive, and I'm very sure they burn these sticks just to spike our anger. From the limited knowledge I know about the Islamic faith, it's pretty unnecessary to burn the incense sticks (even if it's for the purpose of warding off evils, my understanding is that it should be done on Fridays. Otherwise they can do their prayer at home). Their burning are not consistent- it's either they don't burn for quite some time (I.e during covid phase 1) or they can burn 2-3x a week even. The recent one is just this afternoon- my parents burn some joss papers and they noticed. Then they in turn burn their sticks. The smell usually enter our flat so we have no choice but to shut out windows and doors.

 

For the Muslims community, pls correct me if my understanding is wrong. Thanks! 😊

 

1 hour ago, Guest Wondering Much said:

 

This is what I know. 

 

Muslims all over the world burn incense as cleansing and purification purposes.  There is no specific day to do it but most Muslim households prefer Thursday evening.

 

Roman Catholics burn incense too.  Some households burn it on Sundays.

 

BTW, why does your mother burn joss paper outside the house, which I assume is along the corridor.  Isn't NEA already recommended such burning should be at:

 

According to NEA:  "they should burn paper offerings using enclosed containers or containers provided by the Town Councils at various locations within the estates and not damage public property by burning indiscriminately on pavements, common corridors, void decks and other common property. NEA is also working with various religious organisations to reach out to their members in this regard".

 

Personally, to choose between incense and burning of joss paper, I tolerate better with the incense.    To some of us, the Chinese, when we burn the joss paper will actually pollute the environment more.  Plus, when it is windy, the burned paper will fly up and go into all the neighbours houses.

 

 

 

29 minutes ago, sum1outhere_03 said:

Thanks guest.

 

The next 2 questions are - how many sticks can be burnt at one time, and where?

 

At least, RCs do only once a week.

 

Take a look at this youtube video which I took (yes I dont mind showing my face in the YT profile lol) They are burning at the flower pots near our house so the smoke blows to my flat. Most of the times, the burn in the afternoon. A few times they even burn in the dawn (like 6ish AM or late at night like 11pm).

 

Yes we know the guidelines to that - in fact, my mom has stopped buring outside even before COVID. but once the Phase 2 started, their nonsense started again. I have another OneService app which I have all the listing of the reported cases. 

 

And to be fair, the joss papers are in small amounts (not those throw all over kind) and usuakky distinguished within 10-15 mins but the sticks could last about 45mins max (if they intended to put more).

 

So I told my mom, since they couldn't stop their habit of burning, we can justify ourselves to continue to burn regardless what they do.

 

Since it's a long weekend for CNY, I got a feeling they'd do that again.

 

This was Dec 25 (on a Fri), on a holiday when Town councils could not disturb them hence:

 

 

 

 

 

Actually if they are really Muslim, they shouldn't do this at all. 

Seems more they are trying to make a mockery out of your practice in burning joss papers. 

 

There is clear direction in the Muslim practices not to burn incense sticks to chase any evil spirits away. This is against Islam. 

 

From a Muslim Q & A: 

Q: Is there any prohibition on the burning of incense sticks.

A. Burning of incense sticks is permissible as long as there is no wrong belief or superstition attached to it. Some believe that it has the power to drive away evil forces and bring blessings. To have such beliefs is not permissible. The main purpose for using these sticks is to give the area a fragrant and pleasant smell. 

 

Unless they are Orang Asli  or some orang hutan (jungle) originated Malays and follow some bomoh beliefs but then they aren't following islam. 

If the neighbours have islamic symbols in their house, then they would not burn incense sticks which seem more the Budhhist style. 

 

If they burn something then it is Bakhoor, which is a wooden incense mostly burned on charcoal. This practice is established in Islam (mostly Thursday nights to on Fridays before the Friday prayers). But the scent is not stingent. If you know the Indian incense sticks, it is quite similar, the scent is more "sweetish" . Some of the Muslim incense are mixed with musk or sandalwood. 

The practice is more to create an aromatic environment to the house and clothing. 

Burning it outside the house doesn't seem to make sense to me in Islamic traditions. 

 

"Bukhoor” or “Bakhoor” is the Arabic name given to scented bricks or a blend of natural traditional ingredients, mainly woodchips (Oud, Agarwood or Aloeswood) soaked in fragrant oils and mixed with other natural ingredients (Resin, Musk, Ambergris, Sandalwood , flower oils and others). These scented chips/bricks are burned in charcoal burners to perfume the house and clothing with the fragrance rich smoke. This is used specifically on special occasions like weddings or on relaxing times and love occasions or generally just to perfume the house or store, and to boost positive energy. It is traditional in many Arab countries to pass Bukhoor among guests in Majlis as a gesture of hospitality.

The Bukhoor is usually burned in a traditional incense burner (also known as Mabkhara) using charcoal of wood or manufactured charcoal discs and briquettes.

 

These are Bakhoor burners: 

This a wooden burner type:

 

 

 

But as people like to make money from something, there have been variations similar to Indian incense sticks like these and they are sold as Bakhoor incense sticks (but they are not the real one which are used in Islamic traditions for incense burning on religious grounds: 

 

 

The Bakhoor scent type looks like normal Indian scented sticks you can get at Little India shops or the Mamak shop in your neighbourhood shop, if run by Indians. 

But they are not the real Bakhoor as explained above, just some imitation and shouldn't be used for religious practices.  

 

The real Bakhoor type would look like these wooden pieces: They are scented wood pieces and burnt in the above burners. 

 

 

 

 

 

However, I must say, you shouldn't burn joss papers at the corridor. This violates the rules. Your mother should go down the flat and burn joss papers only at the ground floor and not on the corridors at the bins provided. 

 

NEA says:

Currently, there are no regulations against the burning of incense in public places. Being a multi-cultural society, the Government encourages members of public, including temples and residents, to practise graciousness and consideration for the environment and neighbouring premises, when carrying out religious practices in public places. The public is advised to clean up the place after they have made their offerings. When burning joss paper, candles etc., they should make use of the proper pits and containers provided at the designated points, such as those provided by the Town Councils. 

 

Which means you can't do anything much against burning incense sticks. But burning the joss papers at the corridor you are violating the rules. 

 

The only issue I have is from your video they are doing it at the corridor quite away from their own flat. I assume the door with the yellow black lining is the door of your neighbour's flat and not yours. They shouldn't use the corridor like 5m away from their unit. And when they start doing it shortly after your mum burnt the joss paper it seems more of a mockery. Their flower pots seem a bit too far away in my view. Is that permitted? 

 

As the neighbours should not mock on your own practices or your religious beliefs, you might complain. Not sure what would be authority to complain on this. Home Affairs? 

 

But maybe you should explain your mum, she violates the rules by burning joss papers in front of your house on HDB corridors. 

 

But before you complain with any authority I got another much better idea: 

 

My recommendation: 

But in your case I would just turn it around, but you must be crystal clear your neighbours are pracising muslims. Then in that case I would write a question to MUIS! (= ISLAMIC RELIGIOUS COUNCIL OF SINGAPORE (MUIS))

 

https://www.muis.gov.sg/Contact-Info#write

 

Get clarification first. You can PM me, I can help you write it up. 

 

In my knowledge, MUIS would take an effort to visit your neighbours and explain to them their practice of burning the incense sticks is against Muslim beliefs. 

 

Let their own mullahs (islamic teachers) explain to them that their practice violates Islam...

That's much better. 

 

You can always ask for confidentiality at MUIS. 

 

Think about it. 

 

 

 

[sum1outhere_03]

Hi @singalion,

 

Thanks for the clear write-up. 

 

Hmm I don't know if they are violating rules or they are just violating guidelines (based on what HDB/ town councils mention). According to a gov.sg FAQ (note that it's a should not must):

 

Quote

 

How does the Ministry mitigate burning of incense/joss paper in public places?

Currently, there are no regulations against the burning of incense in public places. Being a multi-cultural society, the Government encourages members of public, including temples and residents, to practise graciousness and consideration for the environment and neighbouring premises, when carrying out religious practices in public places. The public is advised to clean up the place after they have made their offerings. When burning joss paper, candles etc., they should make use of the proper pits and containers provided at the designated points, such as those provided by the Town Councils.

 

 

https://www.ifaq.gov.sg/mewr/apps/fcd_faqmain.aspx?qst=hRhkP9BzcBKnt75r%2Bl1bopmAANxUYJsZ1XtCavhh%2Bg8uifs%2FSSJBsHb3dzPQIYWY9OTouz%2BgJcd5UboOVzgRlLJA9P%2Bn%2BtwhgY%2BDP9dsPeSe04qJKNUFHx%2BkgN16jIjgBjLUD6XVIuc195gCL8ZwGxpq6AOvj1Ze#FAQ_2110197

 

From the town council's reply, the could only use multi-racial/religion as an excuse for their incompetency not to act upon my emails. Here's a quote on that:

Quote

 

As shared in our earlier reply on Town Council's part to assist you,  we could only remind and advise your neighbour concerned to spare a thought for their fellow neighbour to consider reduce the burning of the joss sticks during their personal prayer ritual. 

 

Singapore is a multi-religious society and people come from different background and have different beliefs and practices and share the common spaces in HDB housing estates. We also encourage fellow neighbours to communicate with each other amicably, share the beliefs, practices and concerns, to reach an understanding for a better living environment.

 

10 hours ago, singalion said:

Some believe that it has the power to drive away evil forces and bring blessings.

That was what the town council personnel told us (what the neighbour told them) - that their purpose of burning them is to ward away evil spirits. 

 

Apparently, I have written to MUIS beforebut I am not sure if they are too awkward to reply my email.

Thanks a lot for the help for reaching out to help on the write up, but I guess I will see how frequent they will continue to do this / how far I can tahan. Once I break, I probably have to bring up to the courts to settle (since mediation wouldn't be able to help).

 

Also to answer some of your points, my other Chinese neighbour (on my right; the muslim neighbour is on the left) - also burns joss papers too, but they are much further away from the muslim neighbour, I guess. Plus we are not burning as frequent as once a week like what the neighbour likes to do. In fact, depending on the lunar calendar, we only burn on the 1st and 15th day of the calendar, that is only 2, at most 3 times a month.

 

Also would like to add on - this happened in 2018? (My memory should be correct) - the male owner of the house can be quite vulgar. There was even this specific incident - where he actually wore his religious clothings (liken to the guy in cyan) and (can't recall what was the argument about), but still scolded the Fs and the CBs loudly at us. Then, I said to him, "Ramadan already still like that?" Then he kept quiet. Yes, it was during the fasting month. 

Edited February 11, 2021 by sum1outhere_03

[sum1outhere_03]

.<edited above>

Edited February 10, 2021 by sum1outhere_03

[sum1outhere_03]

<Sorry for the multiple post>

Edited February 10, 2021 by sum1outhere_03

[Steve5380]

7 hours ago, singalion said:

Until the day you might be shot dead from one of your neighbours. haha

 

It might be in Texas but as much as I know there are big cities in the US too. neighbours live close together in those cities. Not all areas are like texas. You always see things just from your own personal experience but often lack the oversight. Not all live like you. 

 

 

What a friendly post!  Is this your "wishful thinking"?    In the over43 years I have lived in my home no neighbor has ever pulled a gun on me, ha ha.   And there are no records of shootings in my neighborhood.  But then, no one is bothered by the neighbor's noise or incense smoke.  Only on occasions I can smell the barbeque my neighbors on the right make in their backyard.  And I like this smell. 

 

There is plenty of land in America.  But some people like to live in densely populated downtowns.  But this is their freedom of CHOICE.  Even a laborer can have a family house with a garden around in an inexpensive neighborhood in the suburbs.  But you cannot have it in SG unless you are rich.

 

You are also wrong about my lack of experience.  I have visited SG many times, so I know how the living conditions are there.  I have visited Hong Kong several times and seen the living conditions in Kowloon, one of the most if not the most densely populated spot of the planet.

[Steve5380]

@sum1outhere_03, in the video clips you showed, the incense sticks are in pots of plants in the corridor, a common area.  If you are bothered by the smell, what keeps you from pulling them out and throwing them away?   Or, in a kinder way,  use a water spray bottle and spray their burning end until their smoking is out?   The sticks were placed in a common area where you have the right to be, at the entrance of your flat, and the smoke bothers you.  You may have a respiratory condition aggravated by the smoke, an allergy to incense, something that a doctor may certify.  Your neighbors should be able to burn these sticks inside their apartment, something even more effective to scare the spirits out of there.   

 

If incense can scare bad spirits away,  it should not be allowed to scare away innocent neighbors who are allergic to it.

 

https://clinicalmolecularallergy.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1476-7961-6-3#:~:text=When incense smoke pollutants are inhaled%2C they cause airway dysfunction,has been associated with neoplasm.

 

The original purpose of scents, perfumes, was to cover bad odors.  If there are no bad smells, there is no reason for scents.  You had quoted: 

 

"How does the Ministry mitigate burning of incense/joss paper in public places?

Currently, there are no regulations against the burning of incense in public places. Being a multi-cultural society, the Government encourages members of public, including temples and residents, to practise graciousness and consideration for the environment and neighbouring premises, when carrying out religious practices in public places."

 

So the government will not prohibit the burning of incense,  but it states that it should be practiced graciously in consideration to environment and neighboring premises.  This means that if the smoke of incense reaches a neighbor who is medically affected by it,  his well being should take precedence over any "religious practice",  especially if such practice can be done away from the public area.

.

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Steve5380

[Guest Fairness]

11 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

@sum1outhere_03, in the video clips you showed, the incense sticks are in pots of plants in the corridor, a common area.  If you are bothered by the smell, what keeps you from pulling them out and throwing them away?   Or, in a kinder way,  use a water spray bottle and spray their burning end until their smoking is out?   The sticks were placed in a common area where you have the right to be, at the entrance of your flat, and the smoke bothers you.  You may have a respiratory condition aggravated by the smoke, an allergy to incense, something that a doctor may certify.  Your neighbors should be able to burn these sticks inside their apartment, something even more effective to scare the spirits out of there.   

 

If incense can scare bad spirits away,  it should not be allowed to scare innocent neighbors who are allergic to it away.

 

https://clinicalmolecularallergy.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1476-7961-6-3#:~:text=When incense smoke pollutants are inhaled%2C they cause airway dysfunction,has been associated with neoplasm.

 

 

 

Let's reverse the situation.  The neighbour could also think the same thing when his mother burns the joss paper in the corridor, a common area.  Maybe the burning of the joss paper frightens the neighbour and that it is a fire hazard?  There is also smoke from burning of these papers and the smell can be terrible too.

 

Your logic "Your neighbors should be able to burn these sticks inside their apartment" should also apply for the burning of the joss paper.  Why can't the burning be done inside the house?  Or, for that matter, why can't it burn downstairs where town councils already placed big bins for such activity?

 

 

[Steve5380]

7 minutes ago, Guest Fairness said:

 

Let's reverse the situation.  The neighbour could also think the same thing when his mother burns the joss paper in the corridor, a common area.  Maybe the burning of the joss paper frightens the neighbour and that it is a fire hazard?  There is also smoke from burning of these papers and the smell can be terrible too.

 

Your logic "Your neighbors should be able to burn these sticks inside their apartment" should also apply for the burning of the joss paper.  Why can't the burning be done inside the house?  Or, for that matter, why can't it burn downstairs where town councils already placed big bins for such activity?

 

 

Good points.  This could give @sum1outhere_03 and his mother an option to stop their burning of joss paper so that they can demand that their neighbor stops the burning of incense in the corridor.

[Guest Guest]

Living in HDB is all about balance and tolerance.

 

The Malay neighbour probably think 'why burn the joss paper along the corridor and not downstairs?'

 

The Chinese neighbour probably think 'why can't you burn your incense inside your house?'

 

Both wants to think that the other is wrong.

 

Smell is something we cannot avoid living in HDB.  Can't we stop asking our neighbour not to cook curry (for example) just because the smell can be strong?

 

 

[singalion]

1 hour ago, sum1outhere_03 said:

Hi @singalion,

 

Thanks for the clear write-up. 

 

Hmm I don't know if they are violating rules or they are just violating guidelines (based on what HDB/ town councils mention). According to a gov.sg FAQ (note that it's a should not must):

 

 

https://www.ifaq.gov.sg/mewr/apps/fcd_faqmain.aspx?qst=hRhkP9BzcBKnt75r%2Bl1bopmAANxUYJsZ1XtCavhh%2Bg8uifs%2FSSJBsHb3dzPQIYWY9OTouz%2BgJcd5UboOVzgRlLJA9P%2Bn%2BtwhgY%2BDP9dsPeSe04qJKNUFHx%2BkgN16jIjgBjLUD6XVIuc195gCL8ZwGxpq6AOvj1Ze#FAQ_2110197

 

From the town council's reply, the could only use multi-racial/religion as an excuse for their incompetency not to act upon my emails. Here's a quote on that:

 

That was what the town council personnel told us (what the neighbour told them) - that their purpose of burning them is to ward away evil spirits. 

 

Apparently, I have written to MUIS beforebut I am not sure if they are too awkward to reply my email.

Thanks a lot for the help for reaching out to help on the write up, but I guess I will see how frequent they will continue to do this / how far I can tahan. Once I break, I probably have to bring up to the courts to settle (since mediation wouldn't be able to help).

 

Also to answer some of your points, my other Chinese neighbour (on my right; the muslim neighbour is on the left) - also burns joss papers too, but they are much further away from the muslim neighbour, I guess. Plus we are not burning as frequent as once a week like what the neighbour likes to do. In fact, depending on the lunar calendar, we only burn on the 1st and 15th day of the calendar, that is only 2, at most 3 times a month.

 

Also would like to add on - this happened in 2018? (My memory should be correct) - the male owner of the house can be quite vulgar. There was even this specific incident - where he actually wore his religious clothings (liken to the guy in cyan) and (can't recall what was the argument about), but still scolded the Fs and the CBs loudly at us. Then, I said to him, "Ramadan already still like that?" Then he kept quiet. Yes, it was during the fasting month. 

 

 

 

sorry but the "should" stands for a must in the local gov language. 

You find a lot of "shoulds" in the FAQ which are clear musts. 

 

The second problem is many government officers use these template like pigeon hole responses instead of giving clear directions. 

If I m not satisfied with the response I just write back again and to abstain from copying items from the website or FAQ. 

 

It seems that you don't understand: burning incense sticks is permitted. 

Your neighbours can burn them if they want. There is no law disallowing it. 

 

Maybe the issue with your neighbour lies deeper. Not sure how many people you are in your flat but eventually someone said something nasty and the fights or hatred started. You better ask all siblings and your parents if there ever had been something serious. 

 

Please note as the other poster here said: Your mother is clearly in the wrong as per the current law in burning  joss papers on the corridor in front of your flat is not permitted. 

Your neighbours can go against you. 

I guess this is one of the reasons why the authorities have not taken any action. And what action to take if it is within the law to burn incense sticks on the corridors? 

 

Sometimes we need to change practices. If you don't want to tell your mother to do otherwise, you need to take the risk of being "confronted" by your neighbours. 

 

Your neighbours know too that Singapore is multi religious and multi racial. 

 

Be happy for your neighbours not loudly playing the prayer calls 5 times a day and at 5am in the morning! 

 

And in my personal belief, these neighbours would follow the advice of their religious teachers more than any "advice" from others. 

 

I don't think you have a case in going to court. 

 

What I meant with violating the rules was more the encroachment of public spaces with their flower pots and hanging flower pots quite a distance away from their flat and even on the other side corridor wall. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by singalion

[singalion]

45 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

@sum1outhere_03, in the video clips you showed, the incense sticks are in pots of plants in the corridor, a common area.  If you are bothered by the smell, what keeps you from pulling them out and throwing them away?   Or, in a kinder way,  use a water spray bottle and spray their burning end until their smoking is out?   The sticks were placed in a common area where you have the right to be, at the entrance of your flat, and the smoke bothers you.  You may have a respiratory condition aggravated by the smoke, an allergy to incense, something that a doctor may certify.  Your neighbors should be able to burn these sticks inside their apartment, something even more effective to scare the spirits out of there.   

 

If incense can scare bad spirits away,  it should not be allowed to scare away innocent neighbors who are allergic to it.

 

https://clinicalmolecularallergy.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1476-7961-6-3#:~:text=When incense smoke pollutants are inhaled%2C they cause airway dysfunction,has been associated with neoplasm.

 

The original purpose of scents, perfumes, was to cover bad odors.  If there are no bad smells, there is no reason for scents.  You had quoted: 

 

"How does the Ministry mitigate burning of incense/joss paper in public places?

Currently, there are no regulations against the burning of incense in public places. Being a multi-cultural society, the Government encourages members of public, including temples and residents, to practise graciousness and consideration for the environment and neighbouring premises, when carrying out religious practices in public places."

 

So the government will not prohibit the burning of incense,  but it states that it should be practiced graciously in consideration to environment and neighboring premises.  This means that if the smoke of incense reaches a neighbor who is medically affected by it,  his well being should take precedence over any "religious practice",  especially if such practice can be done away from the public area.

.

 

 

Steve: Singapore is not US. Here you won't even have any case for a class action for health hazards through extensive burning of incense sticks on HDB corridors. Probably you would not even find a lawyer to take your case. 

 

Don't compare the legal situation in the US suing microwave manufacturers for damages and loss sustained from your burnt pet because microwaves did not carry any warning not to dry your pet inside...  

 

What you propose on spraying water seems to me escalating the situation and not resolving it. 

 

 

[Steve5380]

3 minutes ago, singalion said:

 

Steve: Singapore is not US. Here you won't even have any case for a class action for health hazards through extensive burning of incense sticks on HDB corridors. Probably you would not even find a lawyer to take your case. 

 

Don't compare the legal situation in the US suing microwave manufacturers for damages and loss sustained from your burnt pet because microwaves did not carry any warning not to dry your pet inside...  

 

What you propose on spraying water seems to me escalating the situation and not resolving it. 

 

 

Singalion,  why are you so dumb to think that I don't know the difference between SG and the US?   Is this in line with your wish that I am shot dead by my neighbors?

 

You bring up here the idea of a class action. No one else has mentioned this.   It is up to the affected neighbor to bring up a health problem issue with his Town Council, and see if they are willing to friendly arbitrate that the troublesome folks burn their incense inside their units, or outside away from the cramped corridors, since what they are doing is harmful.  This would avoid escalating a situation brought exclusively by the lack of consideration by the incense burning folks. 

[singalion]

Steve, don't be silly.

I would not wish anyone to be shot dead by his neighbour or anyone else.

 

You were gloryfying your neighbours and reminding you on the rather lose weapon policy in US. The probability of being shot dead by a neighbour should be higher in the US compared to any other country...

 

In Singapore the applicable regulation already permits incense burning on HDB corridors, how can you bring a case? The complainant would probably be brought to the Institute for Mental Health to a test... Incense burning is a common practice here for Buddhist and some have these small  "altars" hanging in front of house door...

 

Singapore doesn't recognise these punitive damages as what you have in US...

[Steve5380]

5 hours ago, singalion said:

 

You were gloryfying your neighbours and reminding you on the rather lose weapon policy in US. The probability of being shot dead by a neighbour should be higher in the US compared to any other country...

 

 

Singalion, you are being silly or unreasonable again.

 

You cannot compare between countries the probabilities of being shot by neighbors.  There are other factors involved than the availability of guns.  And the US is not the only country where guns are available to the population.

 

More important is the KIND of neighborhood. Cramped neighborhoods are much more likely to lead to fights.  Neighborhoods that have a mix of ethnicities that hate each other are also much more prone to fights.  And guns are not the only reason a fight may result in fatalities.  Knives can be deadly too.

 

There is little fighting between races, ethnicities in America today, compared to other countries. And there is plenty of land.

 

[sum1outhere_03]

Hi @singalion, I have PMed you.

 

https://goodyfeed.com/nea-burn-offerings-rules/

 

This is not a public gov site but good enough to explain:

 

Quote

 

No Rules, Only Advice

There are currently no regulations with regards to the burning of incense in public places according to the Ministry of Sustainability and Environment.

 

 

 

So as I metioned, if the neighbour deem fit that that can burn their sticks - should they? (I believe most Muslims wont do that, not to those whom I know, including those in my neighbourhood)

 

Plus, if they have a problem with my neighbors burning incense papers - I believe their sensitive noses would have detected, why didn't they complain them as well?

[Guest Guest]

10 hours ago, singalion said:

Actually if they are really Muslim, they shouldn't do this at all. 

 

You are nothing more than a chao angmoh. Who the hell do you think you are to say what real Muslim should do or shouldn't do? 

[sum1outhere_03]

36 minutes ago, Guest Guest said:

 

You are nothing more than a chao angmoh. Who the hell do you think you are to say what real Muslim should do or shouldn't do? 

Chill Guest Guest, I have no intention to hijack this thread and then move to flaming section.

 

But I would definitely be grateful if any Muslims can help me on the teachings of joss sticks because I want to know better as well.

I am more than happy to look into this.

 

 

@singalion, in replying to your post below, I don't know how much of the website you have read.

Actually I come to realise, if Guest Fairness makes sense, actually both of us are in the wrong because according to CDRT (see the examples of interference).

https://singaporelegaladvice.com/law-articles/what-if-my-neighbour-creates-a-disturbance-or-deliberately-tries-to-annoy-me/#CDRT

(I pasted the section for you guys to read)

 

In conclusion - Yes, we could be causing them trouble for the twice a month, but it's not as much trouble as they cause almost every week (even worse, sometimes 2 times a week if they are frequent).

 

In the case of flower pots, I haven't check that out yet.

 

And to be fair - yes my mom did bring her joss papers eventually to the common places to burn - and as mentioned earlier, but once phase 2 started, the neighbour was at it again.

 

Quote

 

What disputes does the CDRT hear?

Before you decide to pursue your case at the CDRT, you must first ensure your dispute is one within the jurisdiction of the CDRT. This is because the CDRT can only hear and decide a case that involves an “interference with enjoyment or use of place of residence” by a “neighbour”.

What this means is that not all cases of disturbances may entitle you to escalate the case to the CDRT. See the table below to help you determine if your case is one that can be brought to the CDRT:

Who is considered my “neighbour”?

Individuals in places of residence only (no businesses or workplaces); Lives in the same building as you OR lives within a 100 metre radius of your home; and Not living in the same place of residence as you

What are some examples of “interference”?

Causing excessive noise, smell, smoke, light or vibration Littering at or in the vicinity of your home Obstructing your home Interfering with your movable property Conducting surveillance on you or your home (such as installing CCTV cameras), where the surveillance is done at or in the vicinity of your home Trespassing on your home Allowing their pet to trespass on your home, to cause excessive noise or smell, or to defecate or urinate at or in the vicinity of your home

How to file a claim at the CDRT

All claims to the CDRT must be made online through the Community Justice and Tribunals System (CJTS). Step-by-step instructions on how to submit a claim can be found here. You should prepare all supporting documents such as:

• Letters and emails to other agencies where help had previously been sought
• Police reports
• Photographs
• Settlement agreements

Once you have filed a claim and made the requisite payments, you have to select a date and time for a Pre-Trial Conference (PTC). Subsequently, your neighbour (the respondent) may choose to initiate e-Negotiation with you. Both parties will then attend the PTC at the scheduled date.

At the PTC, the judge may order for both parties to attend mediation or counselling sessions. You or your neighbour may request for this to be done online through e-Mediation. The e-Mediation function enables both parties to resolve the dispute online with the help of a court mediator so that none of you have to be physically present in court. The e-Mediation can take place at a date and time most suitable for all parties.

If both of you reach a settlement during the mediation, you may proceed to withdraw your claim or apply for an online consent order through the CJTS without going to court. If, however, the case is not settled even after mediation, both parties will proceed to attend a hearing in court. The CDRT will issue a Notice of Hearing to both parties.

A detailed flowchart of the CDRT process can be found on the State Courts’ guidebook on pages 8 and 9.

Bringing a case to the CDRT is not cheap. The filing fees alone can amount to at least $150. This excludes court hearing fees and fees that will be incurred should you decide to appeal the judgment. More information on the fees you may incur to bring your case to the CDRT is available here.

What orders can the CDRT make?

The CDRT can make the following orders:

• Damages (an order for your neighbour to pay you a sum of money) up to $20,000
• Injunction (an order for your neighbour to stop doing something)
• Specific performance (an order for your neighbour to do something)
• Apology (an order for your neighbour to apologise to you)
• Exclusion order (only as a last resort if your neighbour repeatedly breaches court orders)
• Some other order giving effect to the above court orders

If the amount of damages you are claiming exceed $20,000, then you may consider filing a claim at the civil courts (e.g. Magistrates’ Court) instead.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, singalion said:

 

sorry but the "should" stands for a must in the local gov language. 

You find a lot of "shoulds" in the FAQ which are clear musts. 

 

The second problem is many government officers use these template like pigeon hole responses instead of giving clear directions. 

If I m not satisfied with the response I just write back again and to abstain from copying items from the website or FAQ. 

 

It seems that you don't understand: burning incense sticks is permitted. 

Your neighbours can burn them if they want. There is no law disallowing it. 

 

Maybe the issue with your neighbour lies deeper. Not sure how many people you are in your flat but eventually someone said something nasty and the fights or hatred started. You better ask all siblings and your parents if there ever had been something serious. 

 

Please note as the other poster here said: Your mother is clearly in the wrong as per the current law in burning  joss papers on the corridor in front of your flat is not permitted. 

Your neighbours can go against you. 

I guess this is one of the reasons why the authorities have not taken any action. And what action to take if it is within the law to burn incense sticks on the corridors? 

 

Sometimes we need to change practices. If you don't want to tell your mother to do otherwise, you need to take the risk of being "confronted" by your neighbours. 

 

Your neighbours know too that Singapore is multi religious and multi racial. 

 

Be happy for your neighbours not loudly playing the prayer calls 5 times a day and at 5am in the morning! 

 

And in my personal belief, these neighbours would follow the advice of their religious teachers more than any "advice" from others. 

 

I don't think you have a case in going to court. 

 

What I meant with violating the rules was more the encroachment of public spaces with their flower pots and hanging flower pots quite a distance away from their flat and even on the other side corridor wall. 

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by sum1outhere_03

[singalion]

5 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

Singalion, you are being silly or unreasonable again.

 

You cannot compare between countries the probabilities of being shot by neighbors.  There are other factors involved than the availability of guns.  And the US is not the only country where guns are available to the population.

 

More important is the KIND of neighborhood. Cramped neighborhoods are much more likely to lead to fights.  Neighborhoods that have a mix of ethnicities that hate each other are also much more prone to fights.  And guns are not the only reason a fight may result in fatalities.  Knives can be deadly too.

 

There is little fighting between races, ethnicities in America today, compared to other countries. And there is plenty of land.

 

Look Steve,

Very often you are quite offensive against others here. It would be appreciated if yo udon't take up wars with everyone on small things even if someone is pulling your leg.

 

In my culture we say:

 

"Who hits out on others must be able to take in."

 

If you can't accept a little bit of fun or leg pulling, then I am sorry for you.

 

I will prove you wrong too on the gun thing.

 

 

 

[singalion]

5 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

Singalion, you are being silly or unreasonable again.

You cannot compare between countries the probabilities of being shot by neighbors.  There are other factors involved than the availability of guns.  And the US is not the only country where guns are available to the population.

 

Sure you can compare this!

 

Here you got it. Just look who is number 1 and look at the amounts. The data even concludes the guns per person have doubled in the US since 2009 compared to 1968.

 

For a country having so many firearms, sure the probability of getting shot by your neighbour is higher than in any other country

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

 

[singalion]

5 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

Singalion, you are being silly or unreasonable again.

 

You cannot compare between countries the probabilities of being shot by neighbors.  There are other factors involved than the availability of guns.  And the US is not the only country where guns are available to the population.

 

More important is the KIND of neighborhood. Cramped neighborhoods are much more likely to lead to fights.  Neighborhoods that have a mix of ethnicities that hate each other are also much more prone to fights.  And guns are not the only reason a fight may result in fatalities.  Knives can be deadly too.

 

There is little fighting between races, ethnicities in America today, compared to other countries. And there is plenty of land.

 

Dear Steve:

Just some days ago! Very peaceful in the US. Compare this with the neighbours shot dead in other countries...

Do you need more evidence?

 

And it is not a result of too many people in the US holding guns?

 

Oh, yes I am silly and unreasonable.... Oh yes...

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Fight over snow shovelling leaves 3 neighbours dead in Pennsylvania

By Josh K. Elliott Global News

Posted February 4, 2021 2:26 pm

Updated February 5, 2021 10:17 am

 

A long-simmering neighbourhood feud boiled over into a fatal argument about snow shovelling on Monday, after a winter storm dropped 60 centimetres on a small Pennsylvania town.

Authorities say Jeffrey Spaide, 47, shot and killed his neighbours, James and Lisa Goy, before killing himself, in an incident partially captured on surveillance cameras in Plains Township, Pa.

 

US boy, 11, held for shooting dead eight-year-old neighbour

Published 6 October 2015

 

 

White US ex-cop guilty of murder for shooting black neighbour

• UpdatedOct 3, 2019, 1:12 pm

 

WASHINGTON (AFP) - A former Texas policewoman was convicted of murder on Tuesday (Oct 1) for shooting dead a neighbour in his own home

 

 

How This Florida Neighborhood Dispute Ended With Two People Dead

Billy Woodward shot three neighbors, and only one survived.

By ANDREW PAPARELLA and ALEXA VALIENTE

6 August 2015

 

— -- In the summer 2012, a quarrel developed among neighbors in Titusville, Florida, pitting Billy and Barbara Woodward and their two children against several other families in the neighborhood.

By Labor Day weekend of that year, tensions were at an all-time high and Billy Woodward shot three of his neighbors, killing two of them.

 

Man charged for allegedly shooting neighbour's 5-year-old son

Raja Razek CNN Digital     Published Friday, August 14, 2020 2:44PM EDT

 

 

[singalion]

5 hours ago, sum1outhere_03 said:

Hi @singalion, I have PMed you.

 

https://goodyfeed.com/nea-burn-offerings-rules/

 

This is not a public gov site but good enough to explain:

 

 

 

So as I metioned, if the neighbour deem fit that that can burn their sticks - should they? (I believe most Muslims wont do that, not to those whom I know, including those in my neighbourhood)

 

Plus, if they have a problem with my neighbors burning incense papers - I believe their sensitive noses would have detected, why didn't they complain them as well?

 

This is something I very much dislike in Singapore from Government Boards.

Unclear directions, even contradicting info.

 

Why did NEA in their FAQ did not write it is a "guideline", could even mark it on top, but makes it look like a regulation? Some private article somewhere must clarify this instead of the government board (NEA) itself.

 

Often I feel the boards intentionally keep things unclear for not being boiled down having "said" something.  But it doesn't serve the public.

 

This is why with any issue I have encountered I write in to the government boards or ministries and ask for clarifications.

I will ask until they give an individual reply and responding to the issue. To often they just respond with this copy and paste culture from their own website instead of responding to the issue of your request.

 

In my area the National Park Boards recently put up Non Smoking Zone signs at the entry of a park connector. The park connector is used by many joggers.

However, often there were people sitting at the covered shelters and smoking, even in groups of seniors. As I found nobody is advising the smokers to cease smoking, I wrote to NEA. On my first query I received a link to a website which ended somewhere but not at the issue. As usually I replied not to send me links but to read the query and respond to the issue raised. This is often troublesome for government officers here...

After some emails I got the response.

Guess what: The Non Smoking signs are now removed. (good for the smokers but bad for the joggers), while in the first response I received it was mentioned for all National Park zones to be non smoking areas. Unfortunately, it seems not and was contradicting NPB's website.

 

Sum1outhere: If it clear it is just a guideline, then there is no issue if you mother burns joss papers at the corridor.

But note, if the burning of joss papers leaves traces, burns floor or if there are papers not fully burnt on the floor it can fall under "damaging public property" and "littering". Strictly speaking HDB could try to recover "cleaning" costs.

 

On a note: don't say Muslims can't burn incense sticks. Sure they can. As long as it is not associated with some chasing of evil spirits or other beliefs, then it is fine.

 

From what you wrote I don't see the burning of incense sticks by your neighbours as excessive and they can do it. It is maybe this knee jerk reaction:

You do this (burning joss paper), then I do that (burning smelly incense sticks). Tit for Tat.

 

Instead of escalating issues and making it to a war, looking at it, I would recommend to you to take a "kill the snake through friendliness" approach.

Surprise them! Offer them some pineapple tarts (but not on a plate as per MOH's recent CNY "guidelines"). Speak nice about their flowers even if some got yellow leaves, ask what it type of flower it is and whether it blossoms.

You can even play the "I m not the culprit" guy, telling them that you asked your mum to burn the papers downstairs but as the son you don't have any power to force her.

 

Creating a more positive neighbourly atmosphere will eventually turn them to just accept the joss paper burning ceremony twice a month and refrain from countering the burnt air blown into their flat by burning these incense sticks...

 

Or as the Persian poet Firdaus said:

 

"Amiability will entice the snake to exit the cave without biting you."