To Save My Dad Or Not

[Guest Stressed]

Dear All, I am facing a difficult situation  & appreciate your inputs for decision making. 

My father is currently in a life threatening stage of his life (hospitalised for 10 months & now in ICU) because he suffers from several stroke attacks as well as acute Lupus. Lupus is an illness similar to Aids where the person suffers from immune disorder & therefore, wounds would not heal & any slightest infection can kill the person. Due to stroke & Lupus, my father is now totally paralyze & his body has became badly infected that it bleeds easily & sort of starting to 'decomposed'..  

Issue: The hospital wants my family to make the decision that in the event if my father suffers from another life threatening stroke, heart attack or infection, do we want them to continue to save my father & keep his life going? Their advice is to let my father go.

The problem is that though his body seems to be totally gone, from his eyes, it seems that his brain is still working (I say 'seems'). When he looks at us (family), it seems that he is aware of who is who. As such, if my family is to accept the doctor's advice, it seems like we are 'murdering him'.  Apart from the above illnesses, my father is also deaf & he does not know sign language, so my family  could not seek his opinion. 

My family is expecting me to make the decision, which I am also at a loss of it.

Aw i am stuck in the situation & my mind & emotions may not be the most objective, any advice or input which can help me in the decision making is greatly appreciated.

[gstc82]

Don't u have relatives to seek advise from? Shd u ask strangers in be for this major decision?

[Guest experience]

when a person is in ICU is as good as dead already. is a torturing to the family when they cant even get close to him. and is more torturing to the patient when he is inserted with tube to breathe. listen to the doctor advise and let him go peacefully ,he will be more happy to see no more pain and suffering after he gone. if a person in in ICU and chances of surviving than save if there is no cure than decison is to let go.

[GachiMuchi]

If I were to face with such decision, I rather let my father die so that he don't suffer any longer as a vegetable. Sometimes, although letting him die seem cruel, seeing someone suffer with no chance of recovering to be a normal person is the worst thing you can do. You are just prolonging the suffering and at the same time piling up the medical bills.

Sorry to have to say such uncaring words to you and I hope you find courage in yourself to do make the right decision.

Just my 2 cents.

Edited August 23, 2012 by GachiMuchi

[Guest Guest]

try to recall what your father told you before? like when you were young, did he ever mention that he would rather die than to suffer in bed? mostly yes right? cos most people would rather die than to suffer. guess u can get your answer from there liao.

[Guest Guest]

Buddhist Response to Euthanasia & Abortion by Ajahn Brahm

http://diydharma.org...ion-ajahn-brahm

[qez]

The doctors and nurses must have seen this many times. They know the limits of medicine. Medicine can only delay and not prevent death. Death is inevitable.

Let yourself and your family grief for your father, say your parting words, then let him go. End the prolonged suffering. Then move on.

[ArickTeo]

Dear All, I am facing a difficult situation & appreciate your inputs for decision making.

My father is currently in a life threatening stage of his life (hospitalised for 10 months & now in ICU) because he suffers from several stroke attacks as well as acute Lupus. Lupus is an illness similar to Aids where the person suffers from immune disorder & therefore, wounds would not heal & any slightest infection can kill the person. Due to stroke & Lupus, my father is now totally paralyze & his body has became badly infected that it bleeds easily & sort of starting to 'decomposed'..

Issue: The hospital wants my family to make the decision that in the event if my father suffers from another life threatening stroke, heart attack or infection, do we want them to continue to save my father & keep his life going? Their advice is to let my father go.

The problem is that though his body seems to be totally gone, from his eyes, it seems that his brain is still working (I say 'seems'). When he looks at us (family), it seems that he is aware of who is who. As such, if my family is to accept the doctor's advice, it seems like we are 'murdering him'. Apart from the above illnesses, my father is also deaf & he does not know sign language, so my family could not seek his opinion.

My family is expecting me to make the decision, which I am also at a loss of it.

Aw i am stuck in the situation & my mind & emotions may not be the most objective, any advice or input which can help me in the decision making is greatly appreciated.

sorry to hear that sad story.

my question is who should make the decision, that is more important.

i have the same situaton as you cos my mother just pass away 3 week ago.

we don talk about other thing such as money or who should take care of your father.

my question is have u ever ask your father wat his decision, meaning to die or not (@ this time everything need to talk ) and what other thing he still want to do. as u say say his still clear in his mind, i'm sure he knows what he wants.

for me the last 2 months we keep talking to my mother and understand what she wants and mean, most importantly is as children MUST assure our parents everything is in order and we will take good care ourselves ( brother and sister ). if your father understands what is coming ( i mean the end ) now, he should be able to advise you everything and go without regrets and this will same for you. i think you don have much time to wait, as bold up your guts and ask and get everything rights. there is no such thing as ' murder' him. so long as you have done your duty as son and have no bad feeling to your father, everything will be good.

now you may feel very bad about the thing and decision, but once everything is over ( i mean his funeral ), you think about it, you feel relieve ( meaning u have done the right thing and let your parent less suffer )

GOOD LUCK, my friend

[Guest experience]

when the hosipatal bill come than the living ones will suffer more.if u want to prolong his life than you will have to sell yr flat and leave the whole family homeless .those doctor have experience in such cases usually they will advise the family to let go. so listen to the doctor.

[jnbx]

Don't let the selfishness of you and your kin of not wanting to lose him to cause him to suffer more. Life and death is all part and parcel of life.

It's easy for outsiders to give such advise, but as the saying goes 局外者清. All the best.

Edited August 23, 2012 by jnbx

[Guest Help]

Dear Stressed , please help yourself by seeking help from a help-line rather than listening to hear-says in here. These help-line may refer you to the professional. Ultimately, the decision is yours and your family. This forum is not a place to find your answer.

http://www.samaritans.org.sg/

http://www.ncss.gov....INES 250411.pdf

Good luck !

[Guest Guest]

Weigh the consequences, seek opinions and help from professionals, relatives and even close friends. It's a matter of life and death of your beloved father.

From a secular standpoint, you can relieve your father from the mortal sufferings and the 'guilt' of leaving your family with hefty medical bills. It can be seen as an act of honouring your father to let him rest in peace with no further sufferings.

However from religious standpoint, it's a sin to end one's life by another. As far as I know, Buddhism and Christianity (and other faiths too I believe) are against the use of euthanasia as the use of this drug is seen as an hideous act of murder. Faithfuls may ask you: Who and what gives you the authority to intervene & end the life of another?

So you have to thoroughly consider. As a believer of God, I'll pray to the Lord God to guide you and help you in this difficult and painful situation you're in now.

[Guest tt]

Weigh the consequences, seek opinions and help from professionals, relatives and even close friends. It's a matter of life and death of your beloved father.

From a secular standpoint, you can relieve your father from the mortal sufferings and the 'guilt' of leaving your family with hefty medical bills. It can be seen as an act of honouring your father to let him rest in peace with no further sufferings.

However from religious standpoint, it's a sin to end one's life by another. As far as I know, Buddhism and Christianity (and other faiths too I believe) are against the use of euthanasia as the use of this drug is seen as an hideous act of murder. Faithfuls may ask you: Who and what gives you the authority to intervene & end the life of another?

So you have to thoroughly consider. As a believer of God, I'll pray to the Lord God to guide you and help you in this difficult and painful situation you're in now.

LIKE. The only sensible and sensitive reply so far. Yes, have faith.

[lovehandle]

TIme to send your problems into a prayers, i know it s tough ! but stand upright and stand tall , be a man! Need someone to talk? PM me pls

[Marineboy]

My outlook in life has been clear. Once the person does not have a life of dignity its time to let go.

Life is indeed a journey which ends up in death...a certainty as we have all witnessed.

If you were in the situation of your dad....what would you want?

I am sure from what you say,,,your dad is indeed suffering.

We must not feel guilty when we have to do what is best for all.

Medical science has done many good but it's also a double edge sword that prolongss one's suffering. Dying becomes difficult when they open up holes to help you breathe.

Hence i do not wish to be kept breathing for the sake of it....more so if i am suffering and severely dependant. I will always choose to pull the plug it's never been any clearer for me.

Hence my siblings know that if i get into such a stage be it thru accident...this is my wish. Most likely i will also refuse medication especially when its the end stage.

Pain management and let me go is the way i choose if struck with a terminal illness.

[raind]

.

Edited October 4, 2012 by raind

[abang]

Sometimes, enough is enough.

Back in the 1990s, my dad became senile.

He was a liability to those around him, namely my mother and I.

We went through a very difficult time as the man's memory fails him slowly but surely.

Worst, he was strong and violent.

Thankfully just as we were about to surrender and wanted to bring him to a hospice or an old folks' home,

he left us in the middle of the night.

There was no struggle and hardship left for everyone of us.

Everyone, including him, were relieved of the pain.

In your case, you need to understand the physical, emotional and FINANCIAL stress.

The onus is yours and you need to evaluate the consequences.

Does prolonging his life valuable to anyone?

Please make the right decision.

[fiction]

i agree with some of them here. the most anyone can offer here is a listening ear, and perhaps a shoulder. but don't take further advise from the people here. consult professionals for advice. i hope whatever decision you do make is one after careful consideration and consultation.

[Guest Stressed]

Thanks to everyone who has given me valuable inputs. I now have some factors for consideration.

PS: Though the hospitalization bill came to $50k, I am fortunate that over the years, as I have been diligently paying for him the hospitalization insurance, so it did not cost my family a single cent. Also, to those who wander why I rather post my help here rather than taking to relatives, sometimes, relatives might post more problems than solving it.

Anyway, thank you guys!

[gstc82]

There are some illness that I rather I die. Example last stage Parkinson's .

[Guest Guest]

There are some illness that I rather I die. Example last stage Parkinson's .

That's your choice and it does not represent others'

[derryfawne]

I'd rather abstain my view about this, but I hope whatever decision comes is of the best to everyone.

[gstc82]

That's your choice and it does not represent others'

well of cos! It's mine choice and I do t expect everyone to follow. Just like you who don't wan to register as a member of bw, that's your choice.

[qez]

I would like to point out that neither the TS nor the doctors are actively ending a person's life, or 'murdering' someone. It is distinct from euthanasia as some had said.

One issue is that modern medical technology can technically prolong life in the final stages of a terminal illness2. However, it cannot stop the dying process. In such situations, further medical intervention would be medically ineffective, and a decision has to be made whether to withdraw such futile medical intervention. Some terminally ill persons who are unable to express their wishes at that time, may want to be spared further suffering and

be allowed to die *naturally*,

in peace and with dignity.

[Guest Guest]

I would like to point out that neither the TS nor the doctors are actively ending a person's life, or 'murdering' someone. It is distinct from euthanasia as some had said.

One issue is that modern medical technology can technically prolong life in the final stages of a terminal illness2. However, it cannot stop the dying process. In such situations, further medical intervention would be medically ineffective, and a decision has to be made whether to withdraw such futile medical intervention. Some terminally ill persons who are unable to express their wishes at that time, may want to be spared further suffering and

be allowed to die *naturally*,

in peace and with dignity.

Oh I see. It appears (to me) that the decision will be heavier one; because whether to continue using medical technology to prolong one's life is a much more trickier and difficult to consider - as compared to the use of euthanasia (which is clearly ending someone's life with drugs).

However, i believe secular and religious standpoints will remain the same. Secular groups will ask: Why is it wrong for one to stop prolonging the life of suffering of a beloved kin? Religious groups will answer: Then who are you as a normal human to determine when one is to die?

To be honest, I believe this kind of predicament also infringes and conflicts certain human rights altogether - Right to Live & Right to be away from suffering. So careful, sensitive and through serious considerations need to be taken.

[fab]

Go with the professional's advice, i.e. in this case, the doctor.

[Guest Guest]

Oh I see. It appears (to me) that the decision will be heavier one; because whether to continue using medical technology to prolong one's life is a much more trickier and difficult to consider - as compared to the use of euthanasia (which is clearly ending someone's life with drugs).

However, i believe secular and religious standpoints will remain the same. Secular groups will ask: Why is it wrong for one to stop prolonging the life of suffering of a beloved kin? Religious groups will answer: Then who are you as a normal human to determine when one is to die?

To be honest, I believe this kind of predicament also infringes and conflicts certain human rights altogether - Right to Live & Right to be away from suffering. So careful, sensitive and through serious considerations need to be taken.

But then it also seem like we're trying to manipulate death here. Maybe it's already his "time" but because of the human technology, his life can be temporary prolonged. I think from religious standpoint, one can argue: "who are you as an ordinary human to play God here by prolonging one's life?"

[Guest doc]

if u have read experience advise u should know wat to do.i ever ask the doctor if that is yr father wat will he do? the doctor reply was if is a curable illness than can prolong if is a terminal illness and final stage he would rather let the patient die outside and not in ICU. no patient want to die lonely in the ICU , patient would rather die outside with his family at his bedside.

[IkuTube]

My family is expecting me to make the decision, which I am also at a loss of it.

My prayers to you and your family, and so is for your dad.

Often, when a family can sit down and decide on the choice collectively, it is easier for those in such a state to pass on peacefully. You don't have to ask your dad but your family (including you) needs to accept the situation (what is best for him and the family) and then let-god-and-let-go.

Meanwhile, whenever you visit your dad, share with him all the good past memories. Share with him how much he is loved. Tell him that he has been a good husband, a good father, a good son. Those in his shoes need such good words to feel peaceful before they pass on peacefully.

[Guest ICU]

Iku tube In ICU how to talk ? no one can talk to a patient when he is in ICU, they can only stand behind the glass window and watch .even the patient die he will die alone without any last words from the patient.

[Guest Guest]

But then it also seem like we're trying to manipulate death here. Maybe it's already his "time" but because of the human technology, his life can be temporary prolonged. I think from religious standpoint, one can argue: "who are you as an ordinary human to play God here by prolonging one's life?"

True to that. Basically, religious standpoint argues that an ordinary man should never be in control of prolonging or ending others' lives. Religions taught us to be stewards of life, not dominions. However whether its his 'time' to be called home is being temporary delayed by modern technology or not, no one knows. Maybe his 'time' is really up only when even the latest technology can't support his living.

[gammaray]

For me, idw my family members to live in prolong suffering from a terminal illness. But sg doesn't allow euthanasia

Since he's deaf, write and show him how much you love and care for him so its more comforting to leave in peace. Living is about being happy, embracing sadness and tolerance towards others.

One day, we all will return to ashes and dust too. :smokin:

[TheVisitors]

TS

The fact that your father is still alive and hanging on, is because he s still has so unsettled unfulfilled stuff to accomplished

He is abit like those so many restless earthbound lost soul, roaming the suface of this earth, only can willingly move on to the other side, peacefully , once their earth matters is seen accomplished

Your sad situation, reminded me of my friend,s personal story with his father

The father , in coma and bed ridden, after a series of failed health and strokes,

When he was in full Icu care for tthree years , the medical bill scored sky rocket high, that my friend had to down siz his flat, sold his csr snd work three jobs at the same time

The doctor also advised him on ending the llfe rescusitating machine as the situation worsen

One night , tired and very depressed with paying the endless pile of bill, he went to the bed, wepted and said to his vegatated father

" I am so tired of everything, cant you just go ?"

Shortly, the life indicator showed a flat line, his father left and was pronounced as natural death by the doctors

Its amazing true story which I have not told anyone til today

The coma bed ridden ones maybe a lifeless vegetable to you, but in down they still have a soul that can too feel the sufferings of the abled living, so they may understand your predicament

But the choice is your

Good Luck

[transmissionsm]

1. Full body paralyze cannot even blink/move eyeball? (maybe can write out ur words or something)

2. If you agree not to save him, I think he will not die in pain (so you don't have to feel like murdering him)

not like "Hey so he is in extreme pain and we let him be?"

3. I think most people at that stage will want to die? (I know I will regardless of illness...if i'm full body paralyze, just kill me)

4. Google for more opinion.

[Wilbur]

Well honestly, I think it would be best to let him go. Life is cruel. If prolonging his life is to have him continuing to suffer I'm sure he would choose to go as well.

[Guest experience]

usually when a patient die , the nurses will tell the patient loudly, uncle yr illness is cure no more pain.

[Guest faynic]

ur family & u hav to decide urself. i dun think we hav the right to decide on a life....

[trunks]

Put yourself in his shoes and you'll know if you want to continue to 'live' like that. That can hardly be called 'living'. That's just plain suffering at its worst.

You can't communicate. You're in constant pain. You have noone to talk to, day and night (because you're in ICU). You suffer physically, mentally and emotionally but you can't express. You want to do things but you can't move. You can't even kill yourself. Imagine how desperate and tragic that is. And it's not going to get better.

I really hate those pretentious people who only preach and preach about morality etc... but never put themselves in the victim's shoes. They talk like it is very EASY for the father to continue living. And they're not the family of the patient, so they don't understand the pain the family has to go through seeing them helplessly like that everyday, every hour.

[luke84]

well, i had a similar case but i'm not the decision maker, as it was my grandma who is hospitalized.

anyway, the relatives are all pushing responsibilities as they felt it's cruel and stuff..

but unless you are wealthy enough to keep his line going..

I will suggest that you should pull the plug.

it's going to be a huge cost in terms of finance and super draining in terms of energy as you will have to constantly be around and be worried about his situation.

this is not about being selfish and inconsiderate. imagine that this situation can go on for another 5-10 more years(which happened to my late- grandfather) do you know how much the medical bill, and how it affected the whole family?

and for him, i believe not being able to talk, act, or even think is a real torture.. imagine if you are in his shoes...

my conclusion, please let him go if another stroke or heart attack occurs.

but do make it clear to the family, if they want you to make the decision, then you decision is final.

if you want to keep him, then they have to help in paying the bills and taking care of him.

if you want to pull the plug, they cannot disagree nor talk bad about you, because they let you make the decision and they should respect you for it. else, let them go and decide what they want.

[guestlor]

if he still can hear and feel you, be with him until that time is up....talk to him..wash him..shave him...comb his hair..feed him..massage his arms..every little gesture counts....and both you and him would feel the better when that time is up

[Manbane]

Yes let your dad go. A dignified death is better than endless suffering with no hope.

[Guest stbrianud]

Man.. I'm so sorry to hear about this... Sigh.. these type of things are always a really hard decision...

Look you shouldn't base your decisions on anyone here... Take them as advise, but that you have to make the decision with your family...

All the best okayy!

[steelwings]

u can try blinking if he can't talk.... if u know wat i mean. good luck.

[raind]

My personal experience to share,

http://dancer66.blogspot.sg/2008/07/final-lap.html

http://dancer66.blogspot.sg/2008/11/did-i-play-god.html

But am not suggesting u do the same. You need to make the decision that you can accept yourself.

[Nickolade]

Dear Stressed , please help yourself by seeking help from a help-line rather than listening to hear-says in here. These help-line may refer you to the professional. Ultimately, the decision is yours and your family. This forum is not a place to find your answer.

http://www.samaritans.org.sg/

http://www.ncss.gov....INES 250411.pdf

Good luck !

I agree with this strongly.

Please seek professional advice for your situation.

My prayers are with you and your family.

Be well.

[russell]

i might have a suggestion but i might not be able to express it correctly in words, hope you might get the general idea of what i am saying.....

as you say, you can see from his "eyes" the recognition of family and etc.... why dont you have kinda "talk" to your dad, it might not be an actual two way conversation but just tell him of his current medical situation, inform him that he do not have to worry about the family, you will be the responsible one to take care of the family, your mum or siblings too... see the reaction from his eyes or facial expression, does he looks more calm and relaxed?... perhaps you can get the cue from there..

[Marineboy]

Go with the professional's advice, i.e. in this case, the doctor.

This can be tricky.

To be honest unless the doc is a close friend he likely would not give you the frankest of opinion. His job is to save life not help you terminate it.

However if you suggest what you want he might agree...but he certainly would not be suggesting anything or might get him into trouble.

I always would pose a question to the doc....hmm doc if it was your father how would you decide?

[Phrixus]

Is your father literate? If he is, write the questions down in black and white amd show it to him. Ask him to reply in this way: 1 blink = yes, and 2 blinks = no.

Learnt it from drama, but I think it will really help in this situation.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Phrixus

[Guest Lost bro.]

My late elder brother @53yo then was brave when he was diagnosed with prostrate cancer. Being a factory temporay worker with wife and three kids, he asked doctor whether he can be cured. The doctor cant give affirmative answer, so he asked to be discharged from hospital knowing the bills will kill his family even if he can live a little longer under ICU. Thinking back, after his death for 15 years now, i salute him even though he is not educated, he make wise and brave decision that rich and educated dare not make.