Should LGBT pity Black American?

[Guest Gay on the run]

In my understanding, most black americans are also quite anti-LGBT.  Now they have a taste of their own medicine.  I hope the current incident can wake them up and put themselves in the shoes of LGBT people.   Unless I see vast improvement in LGBT people being treated equally,  I have no pity for straight people being discriminated by another group of straight people.

[hirsutehusbear]

Can someone please delete this? I’m tired of seeing completely daft people making silly comments like this. Heaven forbid if anyone agrees with this. 

[Guest Gay on the run]

3 minutes ago, hirsutehusbear said:

Can someone please delete this? I’m tired of seeing completely daft people making silly comments like this. Heaven forbid if anyone agrees with this. 

I know it sounds politically incorrect.  Look at it this way,  many gay people have been ill treated and even lost their life, not to mention being deprived of medical attention, thrown out of family and got beaten up in the street for no reason, eventually forced to commit suicide.  Each day, they live their life without certainty of safety.  On the other hand,  Black american still can live their normal life, go to church, shopping and whatnow.  Of course it is also understood that many crimes are associated with them too.  Once in a blue moon, they were treated with suspicion and get caught, and if you don't struggle with the police, they  probably won't be so unlucky.  George Floyd case may be an isolated incident.  I will rally behind the protest if that guy is not anti-gay. Who can tell right?  What is the message here, it is to treat everyone fair and try to feel how one feels, especially the LBGT people.

[Guest Gay on the run]

I can still remember during Orlando massacre incident.  Gay people wanted American to believe that Gay people  is a new black being discriminated in the society, only to be back-fired by the black american to not associate with them. Now, everyone came out to protest discrimination?  How does that even make sense.   Now that protests are all over america states to support the black one,  is it not the right time to remind them how LGBT people also have similar feelings?

[singalion]

I think there is some confusion or incorrectness as to the statement from the threadstarter.

 

From media reports Africans in Africa seem to have a quite anti gay stance and many countries having discriminatory / criminalising laws against gays.

 

In the US there always has been a huger group of African American gays. And they have been present. But compared to Africa, the American African had been much more liberal and in recent years more supporting of decreasing discrimination of gays in the US.

 

For the more recent years following the 90s, African Americans had more favourable views on gays. It seems that the threadstarter is not aware of such shifts and still stuck in a past.

 

 

The Americans who sympathize most with the LGBT community aren’t white

July 5, 2017

As the American author John Steinbeck once said, “You can only understand people if you feel them in yourself.” That appears to hold true for the many Americans who feel discriminated against, according to a new study. It found that black Americans are far more likely to perceive the prejudice experienced by the LGBT community than are their white compatriots.

Nearly three-quarters of black Americans believe gay and transgender people in the US face a lot of discrimination, according to the study by the Public Religion Research Institute, a nonprofit that tracks trends in public opinion. Researchers surveyed 40,000 people across all 50 states on their perceptions of discrimination in the US.

The picture seems not being visible. Here is the link:

https://qz.com/1021265/the-americans-who-sympathize-most-with-the-lgbt-community-arent-white/

 

In contrast, African Americans spoke out against gay marriage. The background could come from religious beliefs.

 

 

On a note: I find it not acceptable to write

"Now they have a taste of their own medicine. "

 

Reason: African Americans have always tasted discrimination and racist attacks in the past.

While some of the issues in this community might be specific (drugs, joblessness, gang criminality) and on a higher level compared to other ethnic compounds of the US, I would never dare to ask any African American to taste their own medicine. Such a statement seems inappropriate to me.

It is a similar statement as to letting loose any "vicious dogs" against someone...

 

It seems more the white police officers do not get the impartiality correct when dealing with African American people. Their guns seem very loose or looser compared to dealing with white alleged criminals. 

The US police institutions should have long time ago started some education program and frequent courses to overcome prejudicial mindsets which seem to exist in the white police officer communities.

 

And for sure, the Government/politicians/ society could have done more to raise the African Americans out of poverty, better education levels and and and. Actually something Ex-President Obama has failed in 8 years of his two terms as President. Yes, there are African American top lawyers, bankers, politicians etc but they are still a small minority, the overall wealth for African Americans is at very low levels.

(Actually, the situation of the African American was a shock experience to me, when I was in the US...)

 

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2020 by singalion
p

[upshot]

This is my gay hero for many many years and every time he speaks... I get intellectually stimulated.

 

Here he touched (subjects in his last year launched book) on a few of my favourites topics on human right, women, gays, LGBTs, trans and blacks...I am so happy he has my view which is not about try to push your agenda to be recognise for whatever and what happen in the PAST it is about NOW, TODAY what are you doing about it without having to mention you are marginalised, black, female, gay, trans..etc. Want to open your mind to modern thinking instead of always looking behind you or think you have no hope... give this entire video a watch.

 

 

Edited June 2, 2020 by upshot

[fab]

 

I choose wisdom over compassion here. 

[hirsutehusbear]

Whatever faux “wisdom” or “belief” some of y’all on this thread subscribe to, perhaps check Twitter to see what the Black community is really saying about the situation in America. I think the privilege that resides in you guys are clouding y’all from understanding the gravity of the situation and why people are protesting in the first place. 

[hirsutehusbear]

35 minutes ago, fab said:

 

I choose wisdom over compassion here. 

If only you chose compassion over stupidity. 

[mijsdlog]

5 hours ago, Guest Gay on the run said:

In my understanding, most black americans are also quite anti-LGBT.  Now they have a taste of their own medicine.  I hope the current incident can wake them up and put themselves in the shoes of LGBT people.   Unless I see vast improvement in LGBT people being treated equally,  I have no pity for straight people being discriminated by another group of straight people.

 

The protests are against systemic police brutality and fatal shootings that have occurred on presumption of violent intent just because the person in question was Black. It is about Black lives being treated as disposable compared to white lives. It's not about upward mobility and glass ceilings. People are afraid for their own lives. No group, not the LGBTQ, in Singapore are in this kind of danger - certainly not on this scale. 

To the OP: Please make the effort to find out more before spouting hateful ideas about any particular group. This painting in broad strokes is a typical approach that racists employ. That you have suffered discrimination in some way doesn't entitle you to deem another group deserving of it. That is just callous and pointless because it doesn't help your cause either.  

 

 

[upshot]

 

Another of my Gay Hero doing this interview with a black American who has a more ground factual POV which offer some view into the Black American situation a few years back and if you like this follow up with google or youtube for some update information and not make racial judgement without CONTEXT. Context from both the Left and the Right. Might surprise you.

Edited June 2, 2020 by upshot

[upshot]

 

 

[FattChoy]

6 hours ago, hirsutehusbear said:

Can someone please delete this? I’m tired of seeing completely daft people making silly comments like this. Heaven forbid if anyone agrees with this. 

 

I don't agree.  No matter how twisted his logic is, he's got the right to air them provided it's within the rules of this forum.  If you don't agree you always have the option to rebutt his points, rather than offer an ad hominem argument.  Personally I feel the latter is the real tiresome garbage that we encounter too much of.  

Edited June 2, 2020 by FattChoy

[repressednerd]

I never felt black Americans were anti-LGBT. In fact, when I was travelling for business in New York, black guys filled up my Jack'd. Some of them were really nice dudes. The only thing is that I'm the more racist one by objectifying them because of BBC and that they are usually quite well built. I hardly see black & Asian gay relationships in media, so I think that's another part of internalised racism within me.

[hirsutehusbear]

1 hour ago, FattChoy said:

 

I don't agree.  No matter how twisted his logic is, he's got the right to air them provided it's within the rules of this forum.  If you don't agree you always have the option to rebutt his points, rather than offer an ad hominem argument.  Personally I feel the latter is the real tiresome garbage that we encounter too much of.  

So...racist undertones are within the rules of this forum? 

[wilfgene]

9 hours ago, fab said:

I choose wisdom over compassion here. 

 

8 hours ago, hirsutehusbear said:

If only you chose compassion over stupidity. 

A mud buddhisattva crossing river is in position to exercise wisdom, stupidity, compassion,  sympathy or empathy?

Not throwing stone into the well after a person has dropped into it suffixes for me.

Even if I'll have the same reaction on learning that PLUs are also more susceptible to Wuhan Virus.

 

Anybody else catches Mayor Pete drawing comparison between progresses of both groups in USA?

And drew ire from one?

There comes a point when we choose whether to continue crying father crying mother.

I tell myself to appreciate the freedom to choose not to toe the official line.

 

2 paragraphs?

[mith]

the issue here is GROUPING, isnt it?

 

black. LGBTQ. straight.... how about asian? singles? women? the list goes on......

 

rather the saying " black lives matter! "... shouldn't it be " ALL lives matter! "

 

and

 

the protest  : "against systemic police brutality and fatal shootings" is just! and it should not limit to only black victims! 

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by mith

[phewphew]

14 hours ago, Guest Gay on the run said:

In my understanding, most black americans are also quite anti-LGBT.  Now they have a taste of their own medicine.  I hope the current incident can wake them up and put themselves in the shoes of LGBT people.   Unless I see vast improvement in LGBT people being treated equally,  I have no pity for straight people being discriminated by another group of straight people.

Lets say this is true, then it's like "just because i got slapped, i want everyone else to be slapped" why not think, "I got slapped, no one else should be slapped too?" Why fight among ourselves when its the system that the problem?
 

 

7 hours ago, hirsutehusbear said:

So...racist undertones are within the rules of this forum? 

Well, as of right now it seems like people can air their opinion and i guess the community have to say ours too. BUT well this community looks divided (or maybe 1 person has multiple accounts :/)

 

 

57 minutes ago, mith said:

the issue here is GROUPING, isnt it?

 

black. LGBTQ. straight.... how about asian? singles? women? the list goes on......

 

rather the saying " black lives matter! "... shouldn't it be " ALL lives matter! "

 

and

 

the protest  : "against systemic police brutality and fatal shootings" is just! and it should not limit to only black victims! 

 

All well, if im not wrong, All lives do matter but right now the blacks are the one that are getting discriminated. Its similar to Pride why does straight people not need pride? (ok i know some straight ppl want pride for themselves but there isn't a need) because they aren't the one facing discrimination as much as everyone is entitled to be proud of who they are? Its also similar to the original undertone of feminism where woman = men, but now twisted with some vocal minority taking the idea of feminism to the extreme

[singalion]

15 hours ago, fab said:

 

I choose wisdom over compassion here. 

 

The picture you copied seems to pretend it derives from any Government Authority.

 

It looks to me like some right wing extremist group prepared it to spread fake news or to take statistics out of context to spread a certain message.

And it omits the factual reason for certain situations (such as criminality, abuse, social status, wealth distribution...)

 

If you base your wisdom on such fake media, then you must be soon one of the lost cases. Lost in illusion.

 

The fake media did not say anything about education and funds available to African Americans for proper education, schools ...

 

I would be very careful with such things...  Not sure it can be attributed to "wisdom", more to stupidity.

 

 

[singalion]

13 hours ago, FattChoy said:

 

I don't agree.  No matter how twisted his logic is, he's got the right to air them provided it's within the rules of this forum.  If you don't agree you always have the option to rebutt his points, rather than offer an ad hominem argument.  Personally I feel the latter is the real tiresome garbage that we encounter too much of.  

 

I agree to the point if something provocative is said in a sharp manner to set of an intellectual discussion on any issue.

 

However, if such statements are just uttered to perpetuate or repeat prejudices or intended to post disguised racist slurs then such posts should be deleted out of forum or initiated threads deleted too.

 

We have seen this too often at BW...

Edited June 3, 2020 by singalion
.

[upshot]

 

[Guest Are you sure?]

2 hours ago, singalion said:

 

I agree to the point if something provocative is said in a sharp manner to set of an intellectual discussion on any issue.

 

However, if such statements are just uttered to perpetuate or repeat prejudices or intended to post disguised racist slurs then such posts should be deleted out of forum or initiated threads deleted too.

 

We have seen this too often at BW...

Ignorance is not a bliss.  One cannot support the protest of one group of people being discriminated, and than deny the existence of another group who were being discriminated at a far worse degree to the extend that the latter group problems does not exist,  in order not to prejudice the former group of people?

[Guest Gay on the run]

Let's say justice is being dealt on the white policemen, the black people get what they wanted and happy.  The protest ended.  Everyone forgot what has happened.  Life goes on as usual.  Intergration is forged into the main stream again.  Every black and white man patted each other, go about their business, treated each other like brother and sister and than all of a sudden, a gay guy appeared in the street, everyone started to attack him, called him names and kill him if possible.  The previous protest lesson has thrown at the back of their mind, the main target shifted on their gay guys.  Nobody come forward to protest, nobody cares and every gay people has to live in fear, run and hide...blah blah blah for as long as the cow could fly.  Then all of a sudden, the rooster return to roost on the black people, police accidentally killed someone of different color.  Protest re-ignited, everyone took to the street and screamed "discrimination".  Now here is main point I was trying to covery,  is it also not the right time to remind the protestors what have they done to the gay people in the past?

[Guest What Is The Matter]

8 hours ago, mith said:

rather the saying " black lives matter! "... shouldn't it be " ALL lives matter! "

 

NBA announcer fired over controversial 'All Lives Matter' tweet

 

Making such a statement is deemed offensive and viewed as mocking the Black Lives Matter movement, which began in 2013 as a campaign against systematic racism and violence toward African-Americans.

 

https://wwos.nine.com.au/news/nba-announcer-fired-over-controversial-all-lives-matter-tweet/a9a50198-4b52-4cb7-a800-e0ffacb3302d

[Guest What Is The Matter]

Black transgender man fatally shot by Florida police

 

The victim, Tony McDade, 38, was identified as a suspect in a reported stabbing the morning of his death. Police said McDade fled the scene of the stabbing on foot before officers arrived, but they encountered McDade nearby shortly afterward. According to police, McDade reportedly had a handgun and "made a move consistent with using the firearm" against an officer, prompting the officer to shoot McDade.

.

News of McDade's death coincides with protests in Minneapolis over the death of George Floyd, a 46-year-old black man who died Monday after a white Minneapolis police officer pinned him to the ground and put his knee on his neck for about eight minutes. The officer was arrested Friday and charged with third-degree murder.

.

In a video posted to Facebook early Wednesday morning, less than 10 hours before the McDade shooting, McDade said he'd been attacked by a group of men and that he planned to fight back.

.

Following McDade's death, the National Black Justice Coalition said the "tragic incident should be a reminder that hate crimes against Black LGBTQ" people happen "too frequently" and "often without the national public outcry that our cis and/or heteronormative brothers and sisters receive."

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/black-transgender-man-fatally-shot-florida-police-n1218156

[upshot]

 

[upshot]

 

 

[upshot]

Finally they are target the real enemy of the blacks... the very left wing democrats who use blacks as their virtue signalling like LGBTQ to for their own ambition pretending they are the saviours helping this minorite group but are the devil in disguise. BTW for those who do not know black history, you know who are the slave owners in teh US history? DEMOCRATES.. it was the Republican under President Lincoln who fought them to free the slaves. And in present day the left wing pretend they have no idea and that they are the hero who is saving the blacks and other minorities.

[Guest Overdosed Yourself]

21 hours ago, repressednerd said:

I never felt black Americans were anti-LGBT. In fact, when I was travelling for business in New York, black guys filled up my Jack'd. Some of them were really nice dudes. The only thing is that I'm the more racist one by objectifying them because of BBC and that they are usually quite well built. I hardly see black & Asian gay relationships in media, so I think that's another part of internalised racism within me.

 

I agree with you. It's simply a matter of getting to know other groups of people outside our comfort zones. There are all kinds of Black people spanning the range from scientist to thug just as there are all kinds of Singaporeans spanning the range from chief executive officer to ah beng. I also think Asian/Black couples look nice together.

 

14 hours ago, mith said:

the issue here is GROUPING, isnt it? black. LGBTQ. straight.... how about asian? singles? women? the list goes on...... rather the saying " black lives matter! "... shouldn't it be " ALL lives matter! " and the protest  : "against systemic police brutality and fatal shootings" is just! and it should not limit to only black victims! 

 

Please don't fall for the right wing distraction of quibbling over semantics. Black Lives Matter does not mean ONLY Black Lives Matter. It means Black Lives ALSO Matter. They feel like they are being systematically exterminated by police in some cases, and since nobody stood up for them, Black youths began standing up for themselves.

 

9 hours ago, singalion said:

The picture you copied seems to pretend it derives from any Government Authority. It looks to me like some right wing extremist group prepared it to spread fake news or to take statistics out of context to spread a certain message. And it omits the factual reason for certain situations (such as criminality, abuse, social status, wealth distribution...) If you base your wisdom on such fake media, then you must be soon one of the lost cases. Lost in illusion. The fake media did not say anything about education and funds available to African Americans for proper education, schools ... I would be very careful with such things...  Not sure it can be attributed to "wisdom", more to stupidity.

 

The poster you are responding to has made numerous anti-Black comments here over the years because he once had a bad experience with a couple of retail and restaurant workers in America. Based on those individuals, he hates an entire race, and posts bad things about that race at every opportunity. We all need to open up our minds.

  

On 5/30/2020 at 9:09 PM, Steve5380 said:

The authorities who waited FOUR DAYS to arrest the murderer, and have not yet arrested his three accomplices, have only themselves to blame for the violence. There is no doubt that every decent white American supports the protesters. And there should be no doubt that the protests, riots were soon exploited by infiltrated racist, supremacist extremists who aim to create chaos of destruction to predispose pacifists against "socialists". I think that probability is high that if these terrorists could be identified, they are the same ones that participate in Trump's rallies.

 

Right wing Trump supporters have been documented on multiple phone cameras sneaking into the protests and committing the incidents that turn peaceful protests into riots. That led to horrors like Monday's tear-gassing of a peaceful protest, including a priest, so Trump could waddle over to a church to stand with an upside down Bible.

[Steve5380]

On 6/2/2020 at 9:51 AM, fab said:

 

I choose wisdom over compassion here. 

 

Since when are wisdom and compassion... incompatible?

 

Maybe you can choose wisdom with compassion,  or compassion with wisdom?

[Steve5380]

On 6/2/2020 at 9:05 AM, upshot said:

This is my gay hero for many many years and every time he speaks... I get intellectually stimulated.

 

Here he touched (subjects in his last year launched book) on a few of my favourites topics on human right, women, gays, LGBTs, trans and blacks...I am so happy he has my view which is not about try to push your agenda to be recognise for whatever and what happen in the PAST it is about NOW, TODAY what are you doing about it without having to mention you are marginalised, black, female, gay, trans..etc. Want to open your mind to modern thinking instead of always looking behind you or think you have no hope... give this entire video a watch.

 

 

I watched 10 minutes of this 1 hour video and I had enough!  Too much GIGGLING!  Too much cockiness of acting like what is said is relevant.  This guy Douglas Murray does A LOT of thinking out loud.  But this is not a wisdom.  And surely not a "modern wisdom".

 

This guy thinks too much about his smartness for his own good.  He comes across as pedantic, and practically all his "thinking out loud" can be argued and contradicted.  The GAY cause is being pushed too hard?  I don't think so.  I see no permanent damage from it.  I had religion "pushed too hard" as a child, and I am perfectly fine.

PEOPLE HAVE BEEN MARGINALIZED.  This is a FACT.  And talking about it does not prevent the progress towards a better future.

[Steve5380]

On 6/2/2020 at 11:20 AM, upshot said:

 

Another of my Gay Hero doing this interview with a black American who has a more ground factual POV which offer some view into the Black American situation a few years back and if you like this follow up with google or youtube for some update information and not make racial judgement without CONTEXT. Context from both the Left and the Right. Might surprise you.

 

Another Hero who should not be a hero.  

 

He hates the idea of being identified as "African-American".  He hates this because the majority of Backs are descendants of former African slaves, and there is some negative connotation with this.  WHERE IS HIS SELF ESTEEM that this triviality makes him feel bad?   I was born in a Latin country, and I don't feel bad that undocumented Mexicans, which Trump has called "mostly criminals", and the refugees that languish at the border with Mexico are Latinos too.  

 

He makes a big fuss because he doesn't get an example he likes of Blacks being discriminated.  I have a very simple one,  given by Obama:  he remembered as a young man when crossing a street in front of cars he could hear the people in the cars locking their doors.  A simple example but with deep meaning.

 

I also discriminate Blacks.  It is not "against" them anymore,  but I used to distrust them and feel uncomfortable in their presence.  I still "discriminate",  because if I see this Black "Hero" without his nice jacket, clean haircut, clean face but in some casual clothes I would think of him as simply "a Black".   And it is clear that he hates that.  He prefers to think that "there is absolutely no ground to find Blacks being different from anyone else",  which of course, is not true. 

 

There is a wide educational, cultural gap between Blacks and Whites. And poverty, broken families, are some of the causes of it.  If things are done right, it will take a while before this gap is eliminated. This is REALITY.  He blames everything on "liberals"  because he is a dirty politician who has chosen to become a conservative republican to bootstrap himself out of the "Black pool" as he perceives it.  He is a deserter of those who are like him.  And "like him" means black skin color and all other physical characteristics of Black men.

.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Steve5380

[Steve5380]

9 hours ago, upshot said:

Finally they are target the real enemy of the blacks... the very left wing democrats who use blacks as their virtue signalling like LGBTQ to for their own ambition pretending they are the saviours helping this minorite group but are the devil in disguise. BTW for those who do not know black history, you know who are the slave owners in teh US history? DEMOCRATES.. it was the Republican under President Lincoln who fought them to free the slaves. And in present day the left wing pretend they have no idea and that they are the hero who is saving the blacks and other minorities.

 

LOL!  This Nina Turner is given powerful answers to the "Black Hero" in the previous video who wasn't satisfied with any proof that Blacks are discriminated!  

 

I agree with her,  but we don't know if the ugly woman who called the police on the black man who asked her to put her dog in a leash is a "left wing democrat".  

It must be difficult to separate "left wing democrats" from white liberal democrats.  What is Bernie Sanders?  He can be defined as both.  And she surely does not think bad of him, since she was a member of his campaign. 

 

 

[Steve5380]

On 6/2/2020 at 6:06 AM, Guest Gay on the run said:

In my understanding, most black americans are also quite anti-LGBT.  Now they have a taste of their own medicine.  I hope the current incident can wake them up and put themselves in the shoes of LGBT people.   Unless I see vast improvement in LGBT people being treated equally,  I have no pity for straight people being discriminated by another group of straight people.

 

I agree with you that there are some blacks like you describe.  And it has passed through my mind after hearing some homophobic blacks speak that "you don't recognize fellow victims of what you complain so loudly about".  

 

They constantly taste their "own ugly medicine" but fail to see themselves and others given the same medicine to LGTBs.  And the basic culprits of this are the organized religions. The same culprits who also make honest and decent non-black Singaporeans give that medicine to LGTBs...  because... because it says in the Bible... that they are sinners, sinners... 

 

It is all ignorance and lack of that independent thinking that protects the spirit from being brain-washed with fantastic supernatural fantasies.

[fab]

2 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

Since when are wisdom and compassion... incompatible?

 

Maybe you can choose wisdom with compassion,  or compassion with wisdom?

 

empathy vs sympathy.

[wilfgene]

3 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

Since when are wisdom and compassion... incompatible?

 

Maybe you can choose wisdom with compassion,  or compassion with wisdom?

 

1 hour ago, fab said:

 

empathy vs sympathy.

I vaguely remember in "60 Minutes", Eartha Kitt recalled being chided as yellow by her own aunt for being part Cherokee.

I assume I understand Steve's motive behind his many posts.

 

Perhaps you, in this thread, would care to focus on the Similarity.

With a practice in the community called "charity sex",

which fab is certainly well endowed to perform, through the risk of STI.

 

As well as the Difference.

With the level from which to dispense,

which fab is well positioned on high ground, he might have chosen even level for empathy. 

 

Your discretion to exercise.

The choices make the Man.

[Steve5380]

32 minutes ago, wilfgene said:

 

I vaguely remember in "60 Minutes", Eartha Kitt recalled being chided as yellow by her own aunt for being part Cherokee.

I assume I understand Steve's motive behind his many posts.

 

Perhaps you, in this thread, would care to focus on the Similarity.

With a practice in the community called "charity sex",

which fab is certainly well endowed to perform, through the risk of STI.

 

As well as the Difference.

With the level from which to dispense,

which fab is well positioned on high ground, he might have chosen even level for empathy. 

 

Your discretion to exercise.

The choices make the Man.

 

 Well... it must be quite complicated to understand Steve's motives.

 

So "charity sex" is empathy?  Maybe this is why I never had a problem giving this type of sex, since empathy is in my nature.

And fab is also endowed to perform "charity sex"?  How do you know?  He surely needs to do it with protection!

 

But...  aren't you going a little off topic? 

 

 

[lean n mean]

https://www.yesmagazine.org/opinion/2017/09/08/my-white-friend-asked-me-on-facebook-to-explain-white-privilege-i-decided-to-be-honest/?fbclid=IwAR0mbhbAzE3RbSvslbAKy4Z0deUCzJB5r7f-TAg-ORjgzD8tPrB2c7CGwvs

[mijsdlog]

On 6/2/2020 at 10:05 PM, upshot said:

This is my gay hero for many many years and every time he speaks... I get intellectually stimulated.

 

On 6/3/2020 at 12:20 AM, upshot said:

Another of my Gay Hero doing this interview with a black American who has a more ground factual POV which offer some view into the Black American situation a few years back and if you like this follow up with google or youtube for some update information and not make racial judgement without CONTEXT. Context from both the Left and the Right. Might surprise you.

 

I can't see these people as heroes or good examples. The central theme seems to be "it's your own fault if you can't get out of that situation." They are probably very driven and hardworking people - good qualities. But very likely they also caught some lucky breaks at some critical points in their lives; to their credit, the aforementioned good qualities allowed them to seize those opportunities. Now that they believe they have attained a certain level of "respectability", they have given in to smugness and trivialise the oppression that is the reality for a lot of other people. Sadly, the respectability they have attained is also an illusion, because - like Steve mentioned - strip away the suits and material success, they are still subject to discrimination maybe just not as overt. So they lean to the side of the oppressors to appear less challenging or "difficult" so that they can continue to "belong" in those circles. An analogy in the LGBTQ community are the straight-acting people who criticise "less-conforming" expressions of gender or sexual identities.

 

On 6/3/2020 at 8:38 PM, upshot said:

Finally they are target the real enemy of the blacks... the very left wing democrats who use blacks as their virtue signalling like LGBTQ to for their own ambition pretending they are the saviours helping this minorite group but are the devil in disguise. BTW for those who do not know black history, you know who are the slave owners in teh US history? DEMOCRATES.. it was the Republican under President Lincoln who fought them to free the slaves. And in present day the left wing pretend they have no idea and that they are the hero who is saving the blacks and other minorities.

 

Many of us actually see beyond the Democrat/Republican divide. We all know that no one party is without blame. On this issue, we are looking at who currently practises kindness and who is self-serving to the detriment of others. And that we support the spirit of the protest does not mean we are blind to the damage that is caused when things go out of control, the worry that people are not physically distancing, the fact that many "participants" are possibly there to piggyback on the movement for other objectives, including looting and inciting violence. What we really hope for there to be political will to tackle racism in the system - at least some kind of promise - so that the physical protests can stop sooner rather than later.

[TT2880]

One cld ask... is my action going to cause pain and suffering to another person? If answer is yes, why am I not pitying him/her? 

[Bern]

 

On 6/2/2020 at 10:51 PM, fab said:

 

I choose wisdom over compassion here. 

 

If I could down vote you I would. Showing statistics without understanding the context is plain ignorance. I feel sorry for you, but I am glad people in privileged positions like you are of a past era.

[Steve5380]

24 minutes ago, Guest Oh yea said:

Oh yea, then please explain to me what context would invalidate this. Theres prolly more detailed explanation somewhere on how the statistics is gathered, he just provided with you the summary. How about you provide a contrasting statistical report to rebuke this? It remains a fact that black people are much more likely to commit crimes than any other races- you can blame it on any factors such as low income etc but it doesnt change the fact that they are more dangerous. I would

implore you to visit a black district in America. Blacks kill way more blacks than police or white and if police were removed from these black districts, the death rate of blacks will be much higher. Im not saying what the police officer did was right, but it doesnt mean that a few incidents of inappropriate police conduct proves the existence of a systematic racism...  And lets not pretend that the blm protesters are a bunch of peace loving people- the disruptions, looting and police officers killed- one of them being a 70 year old black policeman- alr make them a greater atrocity.

 

@fab chose wisdom over compassion.  If those statistics lead to "wisdom",  such wisdom is only superficial,  that what appears to be at a first glance.

The true wisdom should have at least a 50% component of understanding (or compassion, if you want).

 

I also used to think that like in those statistics, blacks  have a much higher criminality and much less honesty than others and so the situation they are in is of their own making.

I thought like most non-blacks think,  which is logical since I am a white person and I have lived among whites all by life before coming to the US.

But in later years I have changed my mind (not again this stuff of wisdom of older age(!),  he he...)

 

One has to have the experience of a whole life being black to understand the causes of their behavior.  Or, if lucky, one gets some exposure to see it from the outside.

The incident with George Floyd has brought out so much goodness, so much humanity!  And much of this comes from blacks and non-blacks alike!  There is so much sincerity in the protests.  Yes, there is also looting by blacks.  But imagine:  these looters are poor people with no self-esteem.  Would WE loot?  Not in a thousand years; in the first place we don't need to do it, and besides, we are too proud to do such thing.  But a black guy who has been poor since the beginning, with zero opportunities to advance,  seeing a white guy like Trump who was raised with a silver spoon in his mouth and given a fortune by his father, making such indecent display of his richness and power... how can the poor black resist an opportunity to get something for nothing?  Then came the Obama-s.  Where can one find more distinguished people than they are?  (I have hopes that Joe Biden chooses Michelle Obama as his running mate). And more and more comes to light that the looting and destruction was promoted by dedicated troublemakers, many from right-wing supremacy groups.  

 

 

[upshot]

 

[FattChoy]

First of all, we have to study the original question.  Is pity really the  right word in this situation?  What's the point of pitying someone if doesn't help them or their cause?  I suggest the question should be "Should the LGBT community empathise with Black Americans, especially when the latter is perceived to be homophobes?". Before we attempt to answer that, we can ask "Should the Black Americans empathise with the LGBT community?". 

 

Personally I think the answer is straight forward.  Any community or groups of people who suffer from systemic mistreatment, especially for a prolonged period of time, could use a little empathy.

 

The collective empathy will lead to voices of outrage condemning the actions of treating groups of people like collectively they're a disease and reverse their misfortune.   This applies to whether they're Black American, gays, Rohingyas in boats, dark skinned foreign workers, Chinese tourists, people of certain faith or nationality etc etc.

 

 

Edited June 6, 2020 by FattChoy

[Steve5380]

11 hours ago, mijsdlog said:

 

 

I can't see these people as heroes or good examples. The central theme seems to be "it's your own fault if you can't get out of that situation." They are probably very driven and hardworking people - good qualities. But very likely they also caught some lucky breaks at some critical points in their lives; to their credit, the aforementioned good qualities allowed them to seize those opportunities. Now that they believe they have attained a certain level of "respectability", they have given in to smugness and trivialise the oppression that is the reality for a lot of other people. Sadly, the respectability they have attained is also an illusion, because - like Steve mentioned - strip away the suits and material success, they are still subject to discrimination maybe just not as overt. So they lean to the side of the oppressors to appear less challenging or "difficult" so that they can continue to "belong" in those circles. An analogy in the LGBTQ community are the straight-acting people who criticise "less-conforming" expressions of gender or sexual identities.

 

 

Many of us actually see beyond the Democrat/Republican divide. We all know that no one party is without blame. On this issue, we are looking at who currently practises kindness and who is self-serving to the detriment of others. And that we support the spirit of the protest does not mean we are blind to the damage that is caused when things go out of control, the worry that people are not physically distancing, the fact that many "participants" are possibly there to piggyback on the movement for other objectives, including looting and inciting violence. What we really hope for there to be political will to tackle racism in the system - at least some kind of promise - so that the physical protests can stop sooner rather than later.

 

I agree.  That first video of Larry Elder @upshot posted shows him in a rather bad light.  Defending the bulk of republican, conservative ideologies while condemning the bulk of democrat ideologies.  And now in his second video posted he comes about as more humane, explaining the details of his life that made the one he is now.  He becomes more understandable.  This does not mean that one has to agree with his own ideology, he can pick out details of the bulk positions on either side to defend his own beliefs. He is an exception to the rule, and he is no more part of the problem.  But he can talk about it.

[Guest Loquacious Larry Laminator]

LOL @ self-loathing conservative Upshot being all over the place in this thread ...

 

On 6/3/2020 at 9:38 AM, upshot said:

Finally they are target the real enemy of the blacks ... the very left wing democrats who use blacks as their virtue signalling like LGBTQ to for their own ambition pretending they are the saviours helping this minorite group but are the devil in disguise.

 

The "very left wing Democrats" you bash are basically the Bernie Sanders wing of the party ... yet you type that statement while promoting a video featuring Nina Turner, who is one of Bernie's closest allies, and was a top official in his campaign ... you need to stop pretending you know anything about American politics.

 

On 6/3/2020 at 9:38 AM, upshot said:

BTW for those who do not know black history, you know who are the slave owners in teh US history? DEMOCRATES.. it was the Republican under President Lincoln who fought them to free the slaves. And in present day the left wing pretend they have no idea and that they are the hero who is saving the blacks and other minorities.

 

The situation in the US from 160 years ago has nothing to do with the situation today. Singapore was a British colony 160 years ago. So what. The Republicans abandoned black people when they ended Reconstruction in exchange for slipping Rutherford B. Hayes into the White House in 1877. Democrat Harry S. Truman desegregated the military in 1948, Democrat Lyndon B. Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act in 1964, and Democrat Barack H. Obama was elected as the first black President in 2008. Racist Dixiecrats, who are now Republicans, opposed the first two with all of their might ... and their modern Republican descendants dedicated 8 years to trying to make Obama "fail" because that was more important to them than helping their country "succeed" ... so, once again, you need to stop pretending you know anything about American politics.

[Steve5380]

7 hours ago, upshot said:

 

 

Larry Elder is here a little less controversial.  He was able to overcome his abusive father when young, and he rose above his fellow blacks including his brother.  He takes here the issue of young blacks who miss  a father figure in their lives and therefore are handicapped, and magnifies this under a powerful lens.  He shares this opinion with his idol Thomas Sowell, who spoke in one of @upshot's earlier videos,  and both agree that single-parenthood is what should receive the most blame.  While I agree that this is a factor, I don't see how it overrides the positives of social actions brought by the progressive liberals.  While there have been abuses,  one always suspects that these opinions that social services to blacks have "spoiled" them to the point that they now choose laziness in poverty over making a decent living come from conservative republicans who loathe giving help to those in need because "they don't work for what they receive", making such help a giveaway of their tax money taken from their income that they "fully deserve".   

 

[Guest Caught Telling Lies]

14 hours ago, Guest Loquacious Larry Laminator said:

The situation in the US from 160 years ago has nothing to do with the situation today. Singapore was a British colony 160 years ago. So what. The Republicans abandoned black people when they ended Reconstruction in exchange for slipping Rutherford B. Hayes into the White House in 1877. Democrat Harry S. Truman desegregated the military in 1948, Democrat Lyndon B. Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act in 1964, and Democrat Barack H. Obama was elected as the first black President in 2008. Racist Dixiecrats, who are now Republicans, opposed the first two with all of their might ... and their modern Republican descendants dedicated 8 years to trying to make Obama "fail" because that was more important to them than helping their country "succeed" ... so, once again, you need to stop pretending you know anything about American politics.

 

Anybody with the slightest understanding of US history knows Blacks had no real allies in either party from the end of Reconstruction until the years after World War Two. Only weak right wing brains incapable of responding to anything other than short slogans and soundbites would post something like "Republicans Freed The Slaves" while ignoring everything that has happened in the nearly 160 years since the Emancipation Proclamation. Oh well. Class is in session.

 

1854: Republican Party founded as an anti-slavery political organization after disagreements on issue tore apart Whigs in prededing years.

1860: Abraham Lincoln elected as first Republican President after Democrats split into anti-slavery and pro-slavery factions.

1861: Southern states (falsely fearing Abraham Lincoln would quickly end slavery) commit treason, form Confederacy, and provoke US Civil War.

1865: Union defeats pro-slavery Confederate traitors to win US Civil War, Abraham Lincoln assassinated, Reconstruction begins.

1870: US Constitution's 15th Amendment completes trifecta "technically" establishing equal rights for Black Americans.

1877: Reconstruction ends after deal to install Republican Rutherfraud Hayes as President following disputed election of 1876.

1898: US Supreme Court's Plessy v. Ferguson decision officially entrenches "Separate But Equal" and "Jim Crow" in Southern states.

1919: Racist white Americans attack and in some cases murder Black soldiers returning from fighting for US in World War One.

1948: Democrat Harry Truman desegregates armed forces, Strom Thurmond leads Dixiecrats out of Democratic Party, Truman re-elected anyway.

1954: US Supreme Court's Brown v. Board of Education decision opens door to slowly start integrating American schools.

1956: Strom Thurmond and most of his Dixiecrat followers join Republican Party and he's elected Senator from South Carolina.

1960: Martin Luther King seeks help from Republican Richard Nixon, who ignores him, but Democrat John Kennedy reaches out instead.

1963: John Kennedy assassinated in Dallas during trip aimed at shoring up support from Texas leaders angry over his support of Civil Rights.

1964: Democrat Lyndon Johnson, who became President after Kennedy's assassination the previous year, signs the Civil Rights Act.

1964: Lyndon Johnson re-elected in landslide over conservative icon Barry Goldwater despite Deep South flipping to Republicans.

1965: Malcolm X, a Black Muslim Civil Rights leader who earlier renounced violence and embraced peace, assassinated in Harlem.

1968: Martin Luther King assassinated in April in Memphis two months before Robert Kennedy assassinated in June in Los Angeles.

1968: Republican Richard Nixon finally elected President by using "Southern Strategy" and racist "Law & Order" theme in campaign.

1980: Republican Ronald Reagan launches Presidential campaign in Philadelphia, Mississippi, where Civil Rights workers were murdered.

1988: Republican George H.W. Bush wins election to succeed Ronald Reagan powered in no small part by racist Willie Horton ad campaign.

1993: Democrat Bill Clinton becomes first US President to appoint truly diverse Cabinet including multiple women and Black Americans.

2008: Democrat Barack Obama elected as first Black President while Republicans vow to oppose everything he does even if it's good for US.

2016: NFL quarterback Colin Kaepernick begins kneeling during US National Anthem in protest of police brutality against Black Americans.

2017: Republican Donald Trump, who became President via Electoral College, uses phrase "very fine people" to describe Charlottesville Neo-Nazis.

2020: Minneapolis police intentionally torture and murder unarmed Black citizen George Floyd sparking protests across US and around world.

 

That summary in no way captures the full history of the struggle for equal rights for Blacks, not to mention other groups like women and gays in the US, but it mentions some of the biggest moments. Needless to say, the Democrats embraced Civil Rights in the 1960s, while the Rebublicans embraced greed and selfishness in the 1980s. Now, in spite of COVID-19, protesters are willing to die to see real change effected. That's how bad things are for minorities in America.

[Steve5380]

14 hours ago, Guest Loquacious Larry Laminator said:

LOL @ self-loathing conservative Upshot being all over the place in this thread ...

 

The "very left wing Democrats" you bash are basically the Bernie Sanders wing of the party ... yet you type that statement while promoting a video featuring Nina Turner, who is one of Bernie's closest allies, and was a top official in his campaign ... you need to stop pretending you know anything about American politics.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Guest Caught Telling Lies said:

 

Anybody with the slightest understanding of US history knows Blacks had no real allies in either party from the end of Reconstruction until the years after World War Two. Only weak right wing brains incapable of responding to anything other than short slogans and soundbites would post something like "Republicans Freed The Slaves" while ignoring everything that has happened in the nearly 160 years since the Emancipation Proclamation. Oh well. Class is in session.

 

That summary in no way captures the full history of the struggle for equal rights for Blacks, not to mention other groups like women and gays in the US, but it mentions some of the biggest moments. Needless to say, the Democrats embraced Civil Rights in the 1960s, while the Rebublicans embraced greed and selfishness in the 1980s. Now, in spite of COVID-19, protesters are willing to die to see real change effected. That's how bad things are for minorities in America.

 

I am glad to see that Loquacious Larry Laminator and Caught Telling Lies share the same ideology that I have.  And it is a good discussion when a person can freely expose his beliefs, no matter how twisted and negative they are,  while others respond in non-violent ways with responsible well-thought arguments that debunk the twisted premises. 

 

None of us has the experience of being a Black person.  But there is a notable difference between opinions that express understanding, empathy versus those that strive to put blame, condemnation.  It will be interesting to see how the situation in the US changes after year end, when the White House will undergo a deep cleaning removing the rotten trash and sewage that infects it now. 

[singalion]

Guys,

Larry Loqus, Caught Lies, Steve53 please not again this Democrats vs Republican dispute and who was the better one towards ending discrimination against African American... You will never agree one direction, but you won't convince anyone either!

At least don't overdose it!

Try to stay at topic which is Blacks and gays.

 

Thanks.