Is Sauna Legal? + Local Sauna Raided? (Compiled)

[v1hypersg]

hello all,

received news from a friend who has " inside information " that for the coming week, there will be raids conducted on saunas, for whatever reason,

to be safe, at least stay away for a while until the coast is clear,

regards

[Cool]

Thanks.

Not sure what's their response when they see your post. Maybe they will cancel.

[jazz]

Ai ya... The authorities not so efficient la....

They busy with other things.... big scale, international event, many many problems when held in other countries....

However, I still think better be safe than sorry

[GachiMuchi]

I don't think the police will do anything, unless there is a formal complaint. The police have to catch people in the act of having sex, before they can prosecute. Without catching them in the act, there is no case.

When they want to raid the place, they have to have a reason, and also a warrant from the judge, otherwise the owner can opt not to co-operate and refuse entry to the officers, as in the case of a certain sauna near the Quay area.

The only thing the police can do is to issue a warning to all saunas to ensure that the owners do not hold "illegal" activities in their sauna, etc.

Like in the case of the entrapment of gays in public toilets, in the past, the police officer has to BE the victims themselves, and ONLY when the other party touches him, can he arrest that person. If the other party did not touch him, there is no case.

Anyway, entrapment cases have since stopped.

Read this thread from Wikipedia on Singapore

[crazygolfer]

I don't think the police will do anything, unless there is a formal complaint. The police have to catch people in the act of having sex, before they can prosecute. Without catching them in the act, there is no case.

I also share the same opinion as you and in addition, the relevant Authority would do the spot check, if the there were some underaged clients allowed to enter those saunas or some drug traffficking was involved too.

[thaiboyz]

More raids will be followed after the write-up, as the authorities have been challenged. Try to avoid and see how things get along. Better be safe than involved in mess.

[worldangel]

In the paper, it was reported that "Today, the thought of unprotected sex with strangers sends shivers down his spine. And he (Andy) wants to warn others of the dangers of visiting men's clubs. He (Andy) hopes the authorities can conduct more checks on these clubs"

With such comment, what the police has to check, it's nothing against the law for unprotected sex, maybe it concerns the 'Health Authority' and the 'Group for Action against AIDS' rather than the police.

[TopChinese]

Trust the trashy NP to base their entire report on the word of a stupid disgusting HIVpositive bitch. Its obviously one sided... what public interest is there to care about the sexual habits of a marginised sexual minority anyway?

The police will do their part and try to wayang a bit. Ultimately, it is in this government's interest to keep these places open, to be able to target the gay community. Shutting the saunas down will only drive gay sex underground, back to Raffles City and the bushes where unsafe sex will continue.

I'll say it again, if you fxxk a stranger without a condom, you are stupid and you are only inviting trouble for yourself and the community. Barebacking is NOT COOL.

:swear:

[Guest Guest]

Hey TopChinese, there is no need to go to the extent of scolding a person "stupid disgusting HIVpostive bitch"......even if his story was one-sided, even if he was foolish enough to do bareback, he paid a heavy price for it.

Maybe we can be more understanding or compassionate? Is it really that hard to be a slightly nicer, even to a stranger?

(touchwood) If one day you get into some kind of (serious) trouble, I am sure you hope to get some support. I wonder if you will feel the same way you feel about Andy now if you get into a similar predicament. I am not a Christain but I remember a lecturer told me once - Don't play GOD, leave his work to him, don't judge.

[Guest Guest]

the authorities are watching all the relevant forums regarding singapore's gay scene, including this one.

so, we've alarmed the snakes.

bad move.

[v1hypersg]

so they will not conduct the raids since we are warned, so it is anyone's guess if they will waste their time to conduct the raids

so it is safe to go ?

[GachiMuchi]

Don't believe what most paper writes. Sometimes, they add a few words here and there to create effect, so that their papers can sell better.

[BODYholic]

so it is safe to go ?

Any diff?

You are (I hope) old enough to take care or judge for your good self. :oops:

[Guest Guest]

........ back to Raffles City and .....

hehehe....better avoid that place too as today ST mentioned police installing an additional 91 CCTVs around that area to monitor pple movement due to the upcoming international conference.

[TopChinese]

Hey TopChinese, there is no need to go to the extent of scolding a person "stupid disgusting HIVpostive bitch"......even if his story was one-sided, even if he was foolish enough to do bareback, he paid a heavy price for it.

No, this person doesn't deserve my sympathy or kind words. He was stupid/lazy enough to "forget" to use a condom, then he should get whatever he gets from his action/inaction. Bad enough that he goes and then blames the rest of the gay world for it. Come on people.. its about taking responsibility.

Why can't people have safe sex? What can we say to get this message through to people like you?

[Guest Luvsilver]

Just a point of clarification. Please note that there is no such thing as "safe" sex.

Condom use does not afford 100 percent protection from HIV or other STDs. The only "safe" sex possible is between faithful and disease free monogamous partners.

Please also note that finger penetration of the anal orifice and oral sex carry real risks of disease and HIV infection because there are always microscopic tears in the soft tissues of the mouth and underneath the fingernails where fluid transmission can occur. These are low risk sexual activities I might add but still carry very real risks.

It's a numbers game. The more you play with more partners the higher the risk of infection - even if you play it "safe".

An advice to those who like to play around .... always assume that your sexual partner is HIV positive ... and then take the neccessary precautions before proceeding further. Do you still want to give him head? Remember, when your dick goes hard your brain goes soft.

Take very good care when cruising. You can't be too careful and there's always a risk...

Luvsilver

[thaiboyz]

It's a numbers game. The more you play with more partners the higher the risk of infection - even if you play it "safe".

Remember, when your dick goes hard your brain goes soft.

Good saying!

Very often we will tend to get carried away in the midst of the actions, especially while our dicks are eager to release its loads and our brains gone blank. Before inserting in, ask yourself again and again, is it worthwhile just to have few moments of pleasure and face heavy and painful consequences ?I always remind myself and also ensure my condom is properly on...before the actions start.

[TTS]

Hey TopChinese, there is no need to go to the extent of scolding a person "stupid disgusting HIVpostive bitch"......even if his story was one-sided, even if he was foolish enough to do bareback, he paid a heavy price for it.

Let me first state that I am not defending Mr Top. I do see where he's coming from, though the words are a little harsh.

So dear Andy used to love visiting gay suanas, made out with heaps of hot strangers (I did not read the article but did notice the word 'orgy' somewhere). He had a hell of a time, he enjoyed his sex, and contracted AIDs. Instead if blaming himself for not taking precautions, he pushed the blame for his misfortune to the suanas, wanting the authorities to conduct more checks on mens' health club.

Let me ask you one question. Is that fair?

So let's say if all gay suanas are torn down because of this thoughtless statement he'd made, and all gay sex are forced back into bedrooms, and another unfortunate contracted AIDs from some one night stand.. Can he show up in papers and ask authorities to conduct more checks in that guy's bedroom?

Bottomline, it's not the venue, it's the act that counts. He did it, and now he's got it. Don't blame pink-dollars-venture operators of his conditions, take responsibility.

[mowe]

Hey TopChinese, there is no need to go to the extent of scolding a person "stupid disgusting HIVpostive bitch"......even if his story was one-sided, even if he was foolish enough to do bareback, he paid a heavy price for it.

No, this person doesn't deserve my sympathy or kind words. He was stupid/lazy enough to "forget" to use a condom, then he should get whatever he gets from his action/inaction. Bad enough that he goes and then blames the rest of the gay world for it. Come on people.. its about taking responsibility.

Why can't people have safe sex? What can we say to get this message through to people like you?

I agreed with you,why should we have sympathy for such a person.Who knows he might have got his HIV from somewhere else like Bangkok or in other sauna, how is he so sure that he got it from the sauna that he is talking about.He should be prepared to get HIV if he wants bareback sex,can be shiok but dangerous. After his shiok sex without condoms,he get HIV and now he blames on saunas.Don't you guys think that he is throwing the blame on saunas instead of confessing that he is in the wrong for not having safe sex.I don't think i'll give any sympathy for this "Andy" at all.

[skylancer]

hmm.... like wat i say always: Always do safe sex or u will be sorry... hmmm dont u think so guys?

Anyway, since after i m attach with my bf. I did a promise of not going there forever even i m single.. so i think is the best dont go to sauna.

[Guest Luvsilver]

Let me ask you one question. Is that fair?

So let's say if all gay suanas are torn down because of this thoughtless statement he'd made, and all gay sex are forced back into bedrooms, and another unfortunate contracted AIDs from some one night stand.. Can he show up in papers and ask authorities to conduct more checks in that guy's bedroom?

Bottomline, it's not the venue, it's the act that counts. He did it, and now he's got it. Don't blame pink-dollars-venture operators of his conditions, take responsibility.

After the AIDS epidemic first emerged in the early eighties, not long after, ALL gay bathhouses in the US from New York to San Francisco closed down. The death toll was frightening. Every one in the gay community without exception either knew someone or knew someone else who had a friend or acquaintance who had contracted and died from the deadly disease. Bathhouses then were termed "death houses" for a good reason.

While everyone must ultimately take responsibility for his actions, there's no denying that the existence of venues which provide if not facilitate hedonistic and orgiastic sexual pleasures must carry some of the blame.

To be perfectly honest, if such venues do not exist how many of us, hand on heart, can truly say that we can find other places to partake in anonymous group sex and orgies at the drop of a hat?

Banning such outlets cannot eliminate the scourge of Aids entirely but will at least help reduce the number of infections. The hard core will always find venues, if not here then overseas but many others will just do without such dangerous group sexual activites.

Luvsilver

[TopChinese]

After the AIDS epidemic first emerged in the early eighties, not long after, ALL gay bathhouses in the US from New York to San Francisco closed down. The death toll was frightening. Every one in the gay community without exception either knew someone or knew someone else who had a friend or acquaintance who had contracted and died from the deadly disease. Bathhouses then were termed "death houses" for a good reason.

Excuse me, this is the new millenium. We have learnt a lot from those days in the 80s where we didn't even know what caused the disease. We have isolated the virus that is responsible, we have even developed drugs that can control the disease and let most HIV positive people lead a active lifestyle.

What the papers and LuvSilver didn't mention is that almost all of the other countries in the world have saunas or premises where sex are offered. The City of San Francisco doesn't have a gay bathhouse, but has sex clubs like Eros, where sex is readily available in a public manner with no private cubicles. This is ostensibly to ensure that all sexual encounters can be publically visible so that it can be ascertained if any unsafe sex happens. Need I even mention the saunas in Bangkok, Malaysia, Jakarta, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan, Korea and all the other Asian countries?

Taking the saunas away does not eliminate HIV infections. People are not going to stop having sex just because there isn't a sauna. This is especially so when there will always be other ways of meeting like-minded gay men now than back in the 80s.

It is incorrect to say that saunas spread AIDs. In a sauna, operators can help at least by providing condoms and lube that will allow gay men to enjoy sex safely and minimise the risk of contracting diseases.

Guess what, people spread AIDS. There will always be stupid idiots who are too lazy to use a condom, or think that its safe to fxxk an asian man bare because AIDS is a western disease. At least we can target these people if they go to a sauna with education if they want to change. At least, we're not longer ostriches who bury their heads in the sand, like we were back in thr 80s.

[Guest Luvsilver]

Top Chinese worte in part:

> Taking the saunas away does not eliminate HIV infections.

Did I say eliminate?

> People are not going to stop having sex just because there isn't a sauna.

Where did I say this?

> In a sauna, operators can help at least by providing condoms and lube that will

> allow gay men to enjoy sex safely and minimise the risk of contracting diseases.

I know in the UK, lubes and condoms in saunas are unlimited in supply. Do the saunas here do this?

> At least we can target these people if they go to a sauna with education if they

> want to change.

You mean say to sex education cannot be provided for Singaporeans without gay saunas?

Luvsilver

[TopChinese]

1. I know in the UK, lubes and condoms in saunas are unlimited in supply. Do the saunas here do this?

2. You mean say to sex education cannot be provided for Singaporeans without gay saunas? 

1. Yes, most responsible saunas in Singapore do. Maybe it helps if you try a sauna before they go extinct.

2. The education message going towards singaporeans in general is a. abstain, b. have monogamous sex with a partner, c. safe sex. These messages are not well received by gay singaporeans who may views them as patronising and moralistic.

What is preceived to be a more realistic message for sexually active gay men is to have safe sex. Of course the fundies and puritanical will say, there is no such thing as safe sex and condoms are not safe. But that's another argument altogether.

Saunas can help spread the safe sex message by providing lube/condoms in the vicinity of where sexual activities are likely to occur. The truth is that given a choice, most guys would generally prefer safe sex if there is a ready/free supply of lube/condoms. Saunas can help reduce HIV incidence rates by offering the option of safer places for gay men to enjoy safe gay sex without fear of being arrested.

Will be happy to discuss this with you in private, LuvSilver. Shall we go into a cubicle?

[GachiMuchi]

I know for a fact that, TC and 17 provides condoms in lockers & lubes in the rooms, while Shogun provides both at the counter, after you pay for the entrance. As for Raw, it provides condom upon request also from the counter. Diamond, I am not too sure.

All the above saunas, maybe with the exception of Diamond (I did not notice) have posters in strategic location to "educate" the customer in the practice of safe sex, etc.

So I think most of our sauna operators are quite responsible in that area. Therefore, I think it is up to the individual to use or not use what was given to them.

There is a very interesting article on Fridae with regards to; Sexual harm reduction strategies and HIV for those who might be interested.

[Guest Luvsilver]

Top Chinese wrote in part:

> 1. Yes, most responsible saunas in Singapore do. Maybe it helps if you try a sauna

> before they go extinct.

I have tried Diamond here and Chariots -Shoreditch in London. The action in the few orgy rooms at Chariots can be really wild. I am more a voyeur and so preferred to watch and enjoyed the spectacle. :-) I also managed to have a great time with a few cute silverfoxes, one at a time, during the course of that visit. :-)

> Saunas can help spread the safe sex message by providing lube/condoms in the

> vicinity of where sexual activities are likely to occur.

I also observed that barebacking, to my horror, was the norm at these orgies at Chariots. So much for educational signages, lubes and condom that were freely available there.

> 2. The education message going towards singaporeans in general is a. abstain, b.

> have monogamous sex with a partner, c. safe sex. These messages are not well

> received by gay singaporeans who may views them as patronising and moralistic.

Promiscuity and unprotected sex cause the spread of AIDS and STDs. These are the facts. I believe the message is ABC ...abstinence before condoms both aimed at the TWO problem areas for transmission. Why then is the message so wrong? How is it moralising?

> Saunas can help reduce HIV incidence rates by offering the option of safer place

> for gay men to enjoy safe gay sex without fear of being arrested.

I agree that it is a safe haven for sexual liasons to take place without the fear of being arrested. However, it unfortunately also provides the avenue for group and anonymous, unprotected sex to occur and in fact increase the odds for contracting sexually transmitted diseases. I can't see the how such venues help reduce the incidence rates of HIV.

> Will be happy to discuss this with you in private, LuvSilver. Shall we go into a

> cubicle?

We can always agree to disagree and I don't see why an important topic like this should be taken private. Readers can understand the logic behind our arguments and decide for themselves which view to support if they haven't formed their views already.

Luvsilver

[ChnBear]

LuvSilver wrote:

>>I have tried Diamond here and Chariots -Shoreditch in London. The action in the few orgy rooms at Chariots can be really wild. I am more a voyeur and so preferred to watch and enjoyed the spectacle. :-) I also managed to have a great time with a few cute silverfoxes, one at a time, during the course of that visit. :-) <<

Only 2 saunas? So you had a great 'safe?' time with a few cute silverfoxes and enjoyed the spectable of orgies. Are you depriving others of your similar pleasures or more 'safe' time passing activities at the sauna by suggesting a 'ban'?

>>I also observed that barebacking, to my horror, was the norm at these orgies at Chariots. So much for educational signages, lubes and condom that were freely available there.<<

Oh, so you want to ban sauna because you saw 'crazy' people barebacking and ignoring the educational signages? Did also see many others like youself at the sauna?

>>Promiscuity and unprotected sex cause the spread of AIDS and STDs. These are the facts. I believe the message is ABC ...abstinence before condoms both aimed at the TWO problem areas for transmission. Why then is the message so wrong? How is it moralising? <<

Abstinence is morally wrong because you might as well ban sex, since its a fact that causes rape, AIDS, STDS, unwanted babies and etc. Also it's morally wrong to have sex before marriage for some conservative chrisitans. Is it realistic, pratical and pragmatic to suggest abstinence at all? Try persuading people not to abstain from attending certain churches which promote homophobia attitude? NO ofcourse but accept and these people will always exist, inform and educate them of the risks and ways of not fallen into the trap.

>>I agree that it is a safe haven for sexual liasons to take place without the fear of being arrested. However, it unfortunately also provides the avenue for group and anonymous, unprotected sex to occur and in fact increase the odds for contracting sexually transmitted diseases. I can't see the how such venues help reduce the incidence rates of HIV. <<

Some religious places are avenue for terrorists. Health centres, Geylang and etc are avenue for sexual disease. Society ills will not go away with 'ban'. Ban these ban that to remove the odds of the ills or it's does reduce the ills of the society is really a flawed mindset.

We don't need your 'ban' mentality. ( Don't mean to be harsh, but it needs to be said). These saunas will definitely close for business when there is no business. Suggest to these sauna goers an alternative to meet people and do those 'safe' stuff as you had enjoyed yourself. Any suggestion will still a risk to them contracting AIDS if they still don't abstain from sex or don't use a condom. BAN THE SUGGESTION THEN? Ban hongli park from gays, Ban gays from swimming pools, public toilets, beaches or any places where they could gather and have sex?

Oh yes, ban gay and it will surely reduce the statiistics and you will be happy? I doubt so. So don't go there if you could.

ChnBear

[Guest HIV Virus?]

We have isolated the virus that is responsible, we have even developed drugs that can control the disease and let most HIV positive people lead a active lifestyle.

Has the so called retrovirus, HIV been isolated?

Missing Virus Award

[Guest Luvsilver]

Chinabear wrote in part:

> Only 2 saunas? So you had a great 'safe?' time with a few cute silverfoxes and

> enjoyed the spectable of orgies. Are you depriving others of your similar

> pleasures or more 'safe' time passing activities at the sauna bysuggesting

> a 'ban'?

Yes. I am afraid so. I feel it is a small sacrifice if we can save lives by banning such venues.

> abstinence is morally wrong because you might as well ban sex,...

It is *abstinence* from promiscuous, casual, sexual encounters. Not a call to celibacy. Since promiscuity is part of the problem, the solution is ... don't be promiscuous and try to be monogamous. If you can't be that then use a condom. Hence ABC. These are practical solutions to very practical and real problems. I can't see any moralising here.

> Ban these ban that to remove the odds of the ills or it's does reduce the ills of the

> society is really a flawed mindset.

Why should banning harmful activities be a problem? Why can't it work? Haven't you heard of the successful smoking ban in pubs and restaurants in Singapore, Ireland and elsewhere? Banning can and do work in solving some ills of society. By logical extension of your logic we might as well allow controlled drugs like heroin, allow gun ownership etc and don't ban anything. Freedom is great but unbridled freedom can lead to chaos and anarchy.

> Ban gays from swimming pools, public toilets, beaches or any places where they

> could gather and have sex.

Gays can go anywhere. It is promiscuous sexual encounters that lead to transmission of AIDS and STDs which is at issue. BTW, it's already against the law to engage in sex in such public places or haven't you heard?

James Burke

[shaberu]

"No, this person doesn't deserve my sympathy or (kind words)."

It doesn't matter if the report is true or not. There are facts in the report that is true but only one thing. The one thing is condom is placed on the wall outside the room at a distance. Do you bother to walk a distant to get it when he is your type (dieing to F or btm him) and when he say he can't wait (oh... yes!) and be a man. When dick gets hard, brain gets soft. Spare a tot for yourself and the ones you love.

Whether it is TC or not, also doesn't matter. Andy said he visited other sauna as well. What i want to say is andy's report serve a warning for safe Sxx. He just wanna warn the 4 men he had orgy with! I never had unprotective sxx but will go for check up. This is a part the minority can do. Will you?

Well, to go for CHECK UP!

[BODYholic]

Gays can go anywhere. It is promiscuous sexual encounters that lead to transmission of AIDS and STDs which is at issue. BTW, it's already against the law to engage in sex in such public places or haven't you heard?

James Burke

Luvsilver,

You are merely arguing on the depth and magnitude of HIV transmisssion as a result of saunas and bathhouses. It is common sense that the number of HIV infections are likely to reduce should all saunas/bathhouses are closed down. Isn't it a better idea to ban gay and therefore, gay sex altogether? Albeit we know, too well, that gay sex is NOT the sole contributing factor to HIV transmission. Nevertheless, it will no doubt further reduce the number of HIV/AIDS cases. QED

So why stop short at the bathhouses?

There are loads of avenues where one, straight or otherwise, can become a victim of HIV. How far and wide should all these be curbed then?

[Guest Guest]

BODYholic wrote in part:

> It is common sense that the number of HIV infections are likely to reduce should

> all saunas/bathhouses are closed down.

At last a commonsensical response.

> Isn't it a better idea to ban gay and therefore, gay sex altogether?

No. Promiscuous and unprotected sexual behaviour help spread disease. Sex per se gay or heterosexual doesn't. This is where sexual education comes in - to hopefully reduce such risky behaviour.

> So why stop short at the bathhouses?

If there are other avenues that provide easy availaiblity for group and orgiastic sex, I am all for that ban too.

> There are loads of avenues where one, straight or otherwise, can become a

> victimof HIV. How far and wide should all these be curbed then?

Can you give me specific examples?

Luvsilver

[GachiMuchi]

How come when I read the posting, I have the feeling that I am reading someone who sounded very holy? Holy people also go to sauna one meh?

Then turn around and say they will make little sacrifice for sauna to close so that it can save lives. That sounded so noble hor.

If the owner of the sauna know who this guy is, better ban him from entering the sauna, so that he don't have the pleasure of having a "good time" with cute silverfoxes.

[TTS]

LuvSilver wrote in part:

> So why stop short at the bathhouses?

If there are other avenues that provide easy availaiblity for group and orgiastic sex, I am all for that ban too.

> There are loads of avenues where one, straight or otherwise, can become a

> victimof  HIV. How far and wide should all these be curbed then?

Can you give me specific examples?

Well, since the boom and availability of the internet, it's known to provide more information on homosexuality and indirectly ignited the gay scene locally, i.e Fridae

The internet is also used as a effective communication medium for the provision of easy availaiblity for group and orgiastic sex, i.e. the Inter Relay Chat aka IRC. So gay establishments are banned and cease operations, gay men are still typing keyword 'gay' in Yahoo and will continue to hook up.

So you are willing to go that far and in for the ban to all avenues and channels that facilitate such acts of hedonism. Imagine the day when internet is no longer made available to you, and you can't post on BW.... How pleasurable.

PLEASE.... In plight of Andy's contracting HIV, I do agree with you that the sauna operators must probably share some responsibilities. As a matter of fact, our goverment must take up the blame as well for it's stance on the ban of homosexuality; for non association of family values with homosexual couples. Our parents must take up some responsibilities as well for their non-acceptance of homosexual sons and bringing their boyfriends home. Andy's partner must take up responsibility for carrying HIV, not going for self-checks to ensure he's clear off the disease. Andy can finger point 'left right up down' and everywhere, but at the end of the day, HE'S TO TAKE UP MAJORITY OF THE RESPONSIBILITY THAT HE WILLINGLY TOOK PART IN UNSAFE SEX AND CONTRACTED THE DISEASE.

I posted a similar posting in a thread "Living with HIV" where I described my friend patronising a Thai Go-Go-Boy bar and was provoked to fxxk the boy bareback. Did my friend blame the boy? The bar? Or even Thailand? No my dear, he acknowledge he's at fault, and he's facing the music.

[TopChinese]

Back to the topic, has anyone heard of any raids on any of the saunas since the reports on Sunday? Am sure everyone has "a friend/cousin/brother in the vice squad" who is preparing to shut down the saunas this week.

Not me.

We've enjoyed two days of rampant gay sauna sex already.

Wonder if this is another stupid hoo ha that will boil down to nothing. Remember the Zaobao expose not too long ago?

[ChnBear]

James Burke (LuvSilver)

You called for a ban and I disagree with your idea and reason for it. Let's stay on issue.

>>>Yes. I am afraid so. I feel it is a small sacrifice if we can save lives by banning such venues.<<<

Thats your problem. You think by not going to sauna is a 'sacrifice' and an noble act by banning it. It's unsafe sex that you take issue with. Don't be like the 'victim' who is trying to 'bomb' the saunas and gay issues out of proportion for his selfish reason and the mistake he made having unprotected sex. I sympathy with him for his misfortune but not his selfish act in the paper.

>>It is *abstinence* from promiscuous, casual, sexual encounters. Not a call to celibacy. Since promiscuity is part of the problem, the solution is ... don't be promiscuous and try to be monogamous. If you can't be that then use a condom. Hence ABC. These are practical solutions to very practical and real problems. I can't see any moralising here. <<

Now you qualify 'abstinence'. I agree if human is that simple. You assume all can find a budyy/bf/lover to be promiscuous. What the hell will the lonely SINGLE do? Go church, play mahjong and chat with you here? hahahh No sex? ofcoure not but play safe always. That's the only solution. No need to be childish and expect goverment to remove all temptations for you so that you can be gayly safe doing DIY at home.

>>>Why should banning harmful activities be a problem? Why can't it work? Haven't you heard of the successful smoking ban in pubs and restaurants in Singapore, Ireland and elsewhere? Banning can and do work in solving some ills of society. By logical extension of your logic we might as well allow controlled drugs like heroin, allow gun ownership etc and don't ban anything. Freedom is great but unbridled freedom can lead to chaos and anarchy.<<<

You are confused by this comparison. You called for a ban on sauna not the unsafe activity. Take issue with the 'raw' sex by all means but not the place where others do enjoy going. Smokers are forced out in the open and you happy? Shall we ban the church or whatever where there are fundies and ill minded people who causes moralistic and harmful attitude towards other peopl? NO, just because of few black sheeps I wouldn't take issue with the place.

>>>Gays can go anywhere. It is promiscuous sexual encounters that lead to transmission of AIDS and STDs which is at issue. BTW, it's already against the law to engage in sex in such public places or haven't you heard?<<<

Ooi, not just in public. You had committed a crime with you gay sex history. How many had you have so far? If it is the number game that you were concerned with that I will bet that you had been promiscuous for having more than 1 sex partner so far in your life. How many are you going to have for the rest of your life? 1 a year?

You see, it's not a number game I am talking about. What concern you are the people who engage in UNPROTECTED SEX

James Burke

[ChnBear]

OOPS...I FORGOT TO REMOVE 'JAMES BURKE' AT THE END OF MY REPLY. SORRY JAMES. :-)

[GachiMuchi]

HaHa. OK I can't it.

Frankly, I empathise with “Andy” for what he is going through (he is paying the price now), but I think a report from, of all people, TNP (Read: Homophobic, gay bashing paper) I am doubtful if it is "his" exact words and meaning. Maybe he is trying to make good or maybe he is trying to be patronising, who knows. But coming from a tabloid like TNP who always try to sensationalise everything, one should question its credibility. Their stand against gay goes all the way back, need I say more.

Should we take them seriously? Are those words really "Andy's"?

Anyway, I personally felt that a ban on gay sauna/bathhouse is ridiculous. Why don't ban all saunas, gay or otherwise. Banning does not stop sexual activities and HIV. It's idealistic but alas we are not living in an ideal world. Way before gay saunas are available, gay are already visiting straight saunas for sex, and way way before straight saunas, people visit parks, do it in the cars, in the bushes, in toilet, etc. Why don’t ban all those too?

[TTS]

It just cross my mind.... If gay sauna operators are to take up responsibilities for the transmission of HIV in their premises, what can they do to tackle such tacky problem...?

DRESS CODE: Towels not necessary but rubber must be slid on at all times while within premises?

[TTS]

I was clearly referring to physical venues where risky sexual behaviour can take place.

Ban information channels? Now you are being facetious.

Ohh facetious I may sound... Are you denying that the information explosion (on the internet) plays no accomplice to the rise in HIV? Men log on to virtual 'meat markets' in chat channels seeking the meat stick for the night or arranging anonymous orgy parties. Men put up gay personals advertising for their needs, deny it not that even BW members are using BW to arrange for afterdark Wham-Bang-Goodbye-Sam sessions at the recently famed Depot Heights Shopping Complex.

It boils down to how far you'll go. From your stand, clearly eliminating facilitating venues will help, and I can be certain that you will bring it up another level to stop such venues from sprouting ever, which facilitation of such information has to cease...... yada yada yada and so on....

One last question. In your opinion, LuvSilver. Do we have to tear down Depot Heights Shopping Complex? Seriously, I will like an answer...

[Admin]

I am locking this thread until everyone cool down.

[GachiMuchi]

Got a SMS from someone stating that OS is being raided and to inform ppl not to go there today.

[avquda]

Got a SMS from someone stating that OS is being raided and to inform ppl not to go there today.

thanks bro. i received the same sms too.

[samloy]

where is os?

[GachiMuchi]

Hehe...this implies that the authorities have started to take actions on AJ establishments. Although they can't do much to you unless they catch u in the act, or entrap you in one. (Ala the young doctor thingy)

If you are not worried about the unnecessary trouble of spot checks by the authorities, then carry on, otherwise, be a good boy and do something else.

Avoid all saunas if u r are afraid. For those whom are brave, just be careful who u engage with.

Still dun let uncle sam dampened your weekend. We can still have fun.

[worldangel]

The authorithies know when and to what kind of event to raid the OS (One Seven} Sauna as this evening supposed to be 'Go Natural'.

[GaoGaoZhu]

Not sure if I mis-informed or what, it seems to me that every time I heard of a sauna being raided, it is OS. I didn't hear TC kena raided. Is it because TC is better guarded or they get tipped off, or simply they also kena raided but I didn't know.............

[Guest Guest]

Any idea if anyone got arrested in the raid?

[Guest Fundoshi Fetish]

Hmmm... Was thinking of trying out the new theme on Sunday, the Fundoshi Day. Looks like got to put that on hold...

[Guest Guest]

today friday, one seven got raided by police because it is a nude nite.

tomorrow saturday will be towel club's turn as it is the full moon party