Ukraine invasion by Russia Discussion and it's impact on Singapore and Asia? (compiled)

[Guest ngkaycee]

russia to invade ukraine is wrong. but to pin all the blame on russia alone is not fair. if usa and nato had not actively encourage ukraine to join nato and let nato to expand its territories to the border with russia,, this war would not have started.

[Guest Guest]

On 3/17/2022 at 11:42 AM, Guest Sigh said:

Remember HK protests?  Now that it has calmed down, people returns to normalcy and hundred of thousands migrated to UK thinking the moon is rounder in the western world.  See what happened to those migrants in UK?  Many became jobless, faced strong discrimination from white people. Life is much worse than being part of China.   Taiwan only see the protest side of HK, but fail to see the terrible lives of those who migrated to UK.  Taiwanese would become much wealthier being part of China.  Your worry about Taiwan's livelihood is completely unfounded.  Instead of worrying about Taiwan , you should spend more time worrying about Asian Americans and Mexicans being discriminated in your country and caused many children to lost their family.

Your take on this?

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-15/singapore-calls-on-china-to-use-enormous-influence-on-russia

 

 

[singalion]

On 3/17/2022 at 3:13 PM, Guest My take said:

Why should China listen to Singapore?  I usually don't take our politician's words too seriously and as the foreign minister rightful put it, it was just his wisfhul thinking.  Europe problem is best solved by Europeans.  Sanctions were started by the West, against the advice of China.  Why should China step in to save the world when the world doesn't take its side?   If Ukraine didn't take side, like what India and China did, it wouldn't have suffered the war so greatly. 

 

Not really true or correct.

 

First at start: What the Singapore Foreign Minister is doing is a selfish reflection on looking what negative impact it has on Singapore. Singapore will suffer much from the situation also.

 

Second: There is something at stake with China also.

In Europe there is already a discussion if Europe should not restrict more technology exchange with China, whether supporting China's economy is not the same as the dependence on Russian energy resources, in the means of aren't Europeans feeding the next world bully...

 

While I understand the position of China, trying at best not to "insult" Russia, China might not need Russia much except also for oil, coal and gas but also as a country to export their technology to, agricultural products and other products that China manufactures. You can take Airbus. China is producing certain Airbus for the Asian market (not just for China). The Russian products are not very advanced, invention is very low, so naturally Russia is a market for China.

But here comes the issue: With sanctions China cannot export their goods to Russia not fearing being covered by the sanctions on Russia.

China still requires technology or parts from the West for it's own economic purposes.

 

China is in a good position to talk to Putin to withdraw.

Who else is there to give a "warning" to Putin?

If you look at the speeches from the Chinese government, foreign minister, he always stressed that sovereignty should be respected and disputes to be settled peaceful through dialogue.

If China makes a clearer move towards Russia, it must not be even openly, then Putin may see a danger that China will suspend relations for not suffering from the sanctions on their own.

 

 

Mar 08, 2022

China believes that to resolve the current crisis, we must uphold the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations (UN) and respect and protect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all countries. We must adhere to the principle of indivisible security and accommodate the legitimate security concerns of the parties involved. We must settle disputes by peaceful means through dialogue and negotiation.

 

BEIJING, March 10 (Reuters) - China hopes the war in Ukraine can stop as soon as possible, Foreign Minister Wang Yi said on Thursday, describing for the first time the situation in Ukraine as a "war".

"We hope to see fighting and the war stop as soon as possible," state broadcaster CCTV cited Wang as saying in a video conference call with his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian.

Wang called on all sides to calm down and to take more actions to prevent escalation in Ukraine, CCTV reported.

March 14, 2022

The Xinhua report on Wang’s call with Albares said the Chinese foreign minister stressed Beijing’s efforts to facilitate a cease-fire between Russia and Ukraine. “Since Day One of the Ukraine crisis, China has been using its own ways to call for peace and facilitate talks,” Wang said.

 

15 Mar 2022

“China is not a party to the crisis, still less wants to be affected by the sanctions,” Wang Yi said, according to a readout of a phone call with Spanish Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Albares that was published on Tuesday.

 

[singalion]

On 3/17/2022 at 10:52 AM, Guest ngkaycee said:

no proof that usa conspired with ukraine to form an alliance. but more than enough proof to indicate that usa was actively encouraging ukraine to join NATO and the EU..more than enough proof that NATO was trying to expand its territories all the way to the doorsteps of russia. Does it make sense if russia or china were to encourage Cuba to allow russian or chinese troops on cuba soil. will the usa do nothing?   usa is already sanctioning cuba even though it does not pose a threat to usa.

 

No point, as NATO is already at the doorsteps of Russia.

Why do the Eastern Europeans countries align with NATO instead with Russia?

What is the bigger threat?

[singalion]

On 3/17/2022 at 11:17 AM, Guest ngkaycee said:

russia to invade ukraine is wrong. but to pin all the blame on russia alone is not fair. if usa and nato had not actively encourage ukraine to join nato and let nato to expand its territories to the border with russia,, this war would not have started.

 

Hm. Maybe Russia didn't want a country to look as a role model for Russia just at next door.

 

Since the day when Ukraine started orientating more to the West, the problems with Russia started.

The Russian influence into Ukraine was waning.

Just look how Putin has been pulling the strings in Belarus and other former Soviet Union countries.

 

He just feared that the democratic development would endanger his position in Russia. Don't forget Russians can understand the Ukrainian Russian dialect and media is presented in Russian language within Ukraine.

 

I don't see it is just only the NATO expansion that bothered Putin.

 

With the pro Western Zelenskiy Putin realised that any return to the Pro Russian stance of Ukraine is disappearing.

Zelenksy's party won a majority in parliament 2019. While the party polls have declined since for Zelenskiy's party, it was sure that pro European and pro Nato parties would have won a majority again. There was no way that Pro Russian parties or candidates were gaining any ground. The Pro Russian party is around 5 - 6% of polls.

 

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by singalion

[singalion]

On 3/17/2022 at 11:42 AM, Guest Sigh said:

Remember HK protests?  Now that it has calmed down, people returns to normalcy and hundred of thousands migrated to UK thinking the moon is rounder in the western world.  See what happened to those migrants in UK?  Many became jobless, faced strong discrimination from white people. Life is much worse than being part of China.   Taiwan only see the protest side of HK, but fail to see the terrible lives of those who migrated to UK.  Taiwanese would become much wealthier being part of China.  Your worry about Taiwan's livelihood is completely unfounded.  Instead of worrying about Taiwan , you should spend more time worrying about Asian Americans and Mexicans being discriminated in your country and caused many children to lost their family.

 

But this is the fate of many immigrants whatever Western country.

 

You can't expect that you will work in your old job. Mostly there is a step down the ladder.

 

Talk to Singaporeans who immigrated to Australia or NZ. Plenty had University degrees but are working in the middle to lower management or doing manual labour jobs.

 

I think they live with less fear in their new countries.

 

If you look at the applications for UK citizenship I wouldn't say HK has returned to ''normalcy".

 

 

[singalion]

 

here a discussion on potential impact to Singapore:

 

Impact of Ukraine war will add to cost of living pressures in Singapore: Panel

Published  17 Mar 2022, 5:00 am SGT

 

 

SINGAPORE - Despite Singapore's limited direct links with Russia and Ukraine, the conflict between the two countries could impact the global economy and, in turn, contribute to cost of living pressures, said panellists at a post-Budget 2022 roundtable organised by The Straits Times and The Business Times on Monday (March 14).

With uncertainty over how the three-week-long invasion by Moscow of its neighbour might pan out, questions remain over the degree of inflation to expect, they added, with one expert warning of "nefarious activities" by companies taking advantage of the global situation to engage in price gouging.

Finance Minister Lawrence Wong, one of the panellists, said the Government is monitoring the situation closely and would come up with additional measures if it worsens.

 

Full article here:

 

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/ukraine-war-impact-will-add-to-cost-of-living-pressures-in-singapore-panel

 

I haven't seen any video of the panel discussion.

 

Here is another discussion on same topic.

 

 

[Steve5380]

If the invasion of Ukraine results of an increase in cost of living in Singapore,  that is, an inflation,  will the super erudite economy geniuses who post at BW also blame Joe Biden for the inflation in your country?

[Steve5380]

On 3/16/2022 at 10:42 PM, Guest Sigh said:

Remember HK protests?  Now that it has calmed down, people returns to normalcy and hundred of thousands migrated to UK thinking the moon is rounder in the western world.  See what happened to those migrants in UK?  Many became jobless, faced strong discrimination from white people. Life is much worse than being part of China.   Taiwan only see the protest side of HK, but fail to see the terrible lives of those who migrated to UK.  Taiwanese would become much wealthier being part of China.  Your worry about Taiwan's livelihood is completely unfounded.  Instead of worrying about Taiwan , you should spend more time worrying about Asian Americans and Mexicans being discriminated in your country and caused many children to lost their family.

 

I am very conscious of the abominations that were and are still committed in America against immigrants, refugees, and I know perfectly well who to blame for. 

 

As for Taiwanese,  how could they be better under the PRC?   Look to what happened in HK with their habitants so accustomed to their freedoms,  now falling under a totalitarian government.

 

There should not be any doubt that the PRC is a totalitarian regime.  This has its advantages, the government does not need to worry about reactions by some stupid entitled people trying to defend their absolute rights,  like these anti-vaccine idiots.  If Xi dictates that people need to be vaccinated, that is it!   But a government does not need to be so strong handed.  There are many examples of modern progressive countries where individual rights and liberties are respected, and these countries are doing very well.

 

As for Taiwan,  China has no need for this small island, and should leave it in peace.  It should take example from it, and build its own super modern factory of semiconductors. It has the money, and it can acquire the expertise.

 

As for energy,  IT IS TIME that the world pays attention to climate change.  It should hit Russia by reducing its dependence on oil.  Doesn't China have over a billion people who could fabricate and install solar cells to cover its vast territory, and so stop any need to import oil and gas? 

 

Now that the winter is over, just today I ended one of my dependences on gas (oil), by replacing my 15 year old gas lawn mower with a brand new electric one.   This one is beautiful, baby, and I cannot wait for the grass to grow and cut it.

 

 

[singalion]

On 3/17/2022 at 9:46 PM, Guest Documented said:

Americans vollunteers sneaked into Ukraine to help Ukraine underground military, formed an army,  to kill the Russian speaking people.  

 

That's the Putin propaganda. 

In 8 years after the invasion by Russia to Ukraine there has never been a piece of evidence supporting this claim. 

 

[Steve5380]

The Ukraine-Russia conflict motivates one to look up the size and population of nations, and to debate in which country to seek refuge if World War III breaks out.

 

I discovered to my surprise that my native country Argentina has the 8th largest size in the world, with 2.78 million square km. As such, with its 45 million inhabitants, it is very sparsely populated.  Calculations reveal that the population density of Singapore is 277 times the density in the US,  and 488 times the density in Argentina.   It is reasonable to assume that the density of gays in these countries follow the same ratios. 

 

It's no wonder then that I like Singapore so much!  In Singapore I find a 277 times higher density of gays than in the US,  and a 488 times higher density of gays than in Argentina.  This is near overwhelming, and makes your island a gay paradise.   

 

But this is in times of world peace.   With a planet ravaged by war,  the best place is the one with as low a population density as possible. And the vast Pampas of Argentina are not an interesting place to drop atomic bombs.  So I might suggest that you take refuge in Argentina.  We Argentinians are very friendly people too.

[Guest Don’t Confuse]

On 3/17/2022 at 3:16 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

I am very conscious of the abominations that were and are still committed in America against immigrants, refugees, and I know perfectly well who to blame for. 

 

As for Taiwanese,  how could they be better under the PRC?   Look to what happened in HK with their habitants so accustomed to their freedoms,  now falling under a totalitarian government.

Once again you forget international law. Not that in your fantasy land international law stands for anything

[Steve5380]

On 3/17/2022 at 3:16 PM, Guest Don’t Confuse said:

Once again you forget international law. Not that in your fantasy land international law stands for anything

 

OH... what part of international law did I forget?

[Guest Can't escape]

On 3/18/2022 at 4:06 AM, Steve5380 said:

So I might suggest that you take refuge in Argentina.  We Argentinians are very friendly people too.

Still not safe.  I suggest you run into the Amazon forest, stripped yourself naked completely, pierce your earlopes with donkey bones,  and join any tribe willing to take your in.  Only then, your safety is guaranteed.  Who knows, you might find fox bat meat highly nutritional than your regular fasting.  But first thing first,  you need to tie a string around your forehead to your waist.  It is the tribe's regulation.  Not difficult for you  right?

 

Now back to the topic.  Don't you worry about Singapore dense population.  If a bomb drop, the entire island will sink, and not only Singaporeans go down with it, but also many other nationals including Argentinian, American, Mongolian, Arabian, Ukranian, Russian, Indian, China, Pinoy (especially)...and almost every nationalities are already here.  Not only that, Batam, Bintan and Southern Johor also dissappeared from the map due to impact.  But, why worry?  Once climate change took effect, the polar ice melted, Singapore will dissappear anyway, so does New York city and Los Angeles, the gay city?

[sgmaven]

Some people seem to see the world as "light" and "dark", "yin" and "yang". There is no compulsion for anyone or any country to "choose" between the US and Russia. Hence, the existence of the Non-Aligned Movement.

 

Both the US and Russia are no angels. Just because one country does something non-kosher at the moment, does not mean that the other will not commit similar atrocities later. Why the need to "choose" to align with them, when you know that they are likely to play you out?

[singalion]

On 3/18/2022 at 1:57 PM, sgmaven said:

Some people seem to see the world as "light" and "dark", "yin" and "yang". There is no compulsion for anyone or any country to "choose" between the US and Russia. Hence, the existence of the Non-Aligned Movement.

 

Both the US and Russia are no angels. Just because one country does something non-kosher at the moment, does not mean that the other will not commit similar atrocities later. Why the need to "choose" to align with them, when you know that they are likely to play you out?

 

Ok, in nearly all such actions by the US, US and NATO had UN authority to act against other states.

The exception was the bombing of Belgrade / Serbia, where there was ethnic cleansing of Albanians in Kosovo, where the US did not have any UN mandate to act. 

 

Another example may be US military involvement in Syria and the 2019 bombing, however, Syria is a very particular issue. Russia has blocked of and vetoed every UN resolution on Syria.

 

Regarding Kosovo: However, until today, there is no dispute of the ethnic cleansing actions by Serbia. It is recorded and actually documented through a Serbian government direction.

https://irp.fas.org/imint/990514-view.htm

The Yugoslav and Serbian forces responded with a ruthless counteroffensive and engaged in a program of ethnic cleansing. The United Nations (UN) Security Council condemned this excessive use of force and imposed an arms embargo, but the violence continued.

Russia blocked UN resolutions on Kosovo also in 1999 despite the earlier Resolution that condemned the ethnic action by Serbia in Kosovo.

 

Russia is misusing similar reasoning of ethnic cleansing by Ukrainians against Russians within Ukraine and even talking about a genocide in the Russian controlled provinces of Donbas and Luhansk, whereas in fact these parts are cordoned off from Ukrainian control since mid 2014.

This is fake. There has been not one piece of evidence supporting the claim by Russia.

 

My personal assumption is here: Putin is just using the claim as justification in a sense, what you did with Serbia, we just do in Ukraine. But the facts are against him. The world knows that the Ukrainian government, military or police had no access to these parts of Ukraine since they were separated off after the 2014 Russian intrusion into Ukraine.

Since these parts had been separated and controlled by Russian militia, how could have Ukraine committed any genocide?

 

Also note that there is plenty of Russian population living in other parts of Ukraine (and not the in the 2 separated parts Luhansk and Donbas) and those ethnic Russians have never made any complaint on ethnic cleansing. In fact, such Ukrainian Russians are also defending Ukraine from Russia's invasion. Just read the news about the cities in the East which opposed the Russian control.

 

While I admit that the US has also "blood on their hands" in different countries and is not as innocent as it pretends, but for the past 30 years, the US always with that exception of Kosovo sought UN mandate for actions (even if presentation of evidence was sometimes flawed...).

 

Syria is another issue, which comes near to the Kosovo conflict from 1999 as Russia has been blocking off any UN action or mandate.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by singalion

[singalion]

Here is a good example of the hypocrisy of Russia and the long time Foreign Minister Lavrov.

 

Look what he said in the case of Kosovo and juxtapose  this with the "genocide" claim on Ukraine in Feb 2022 at same UN security council.

 

 

SERGEY LAVROV (Russian Federation) expressed outrage at the use of force against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Throughout the weeks, when those threats had been made, the Russian Federation had repeatedly warned about the long-term consequences of settling the situation in that manner. Those who were involved in the use of force, which violated the United Nations Charter and occurred without the Council's authorization, must realize the serious responsibility they bore.

 

 

Attempts to justify strikes as preventing humanitarian catastrophe were not recognized by international law, he said.

 

The use of unilateral force would lead to a situation with devastating humanitarian consequences. No considerations of any kind could serve to justify aggression. Violations of law could only be combated on the solid basis of the law.

 

Attempts to apply other standards to international law and disregard other laws created a dangerous precedent, he said.

 

Political methods had not been exhausted, he stated, demanding immediate cessation of military action.

 

Today, his President had said the Council alone could decide which measures should be taken regarding maintaining or restoring international security. The Charter of the United Nations and the founding act on relations between the Russian Federation and NATO had been violated. A dangerous precedent had been set in the Alliance's attempt to enter the twenty-first century in the uniform of an international gendarme. His leadership would be reviewing its relations with NATO.

 

https://www.un.org/press/en/1999/19990324.sc6657.html

 

 

Now 2022

Security Council Fails to Adopt Draft Resolution on Ending Ukraine Crisis, as Russian Federation Wields Veto

• Security Council  8979th Meeting 25 February 2022 - 26 February 2022

24 Feb 2022

- resident of the Council for February, said that after listening to the statements tonight and in recent days, it was difficult to explain intensification of shelling by the Ukrainian regime of civilians by in Donetsk and Luhansk.

All the speakers seemed not to care for those people “who are living in basements. They seemed not to care about the refugees that are fleeing to Russia,” he said, as if "those four million people simply don’t exist.”

“We tried yesterday and the day before to explain the logic by which Russia recognized the regions in the Donbas, but you just didn’t want to hear it; then or now. The people of the Donbas have been living in fear for the past eight years under Ukraine’s shelling and aggressions,” he said.

 

The Russian Ambassador stated that “the root of today’s crisis around Ukraine is Ukraine itself, which has for years been undermining the Minsk Agreements and calls for de-escalation”.

He told Council members that he had just learned that President Putin had announced a special military operation in the region, but that was all he knew and would need more time to gather specific information.

“I will keep you appraised of the situation,” he said and added that “occupation of Ukraine is not in our plan, our plan is to protect the people [in the Donbas] from the genocide perpetrated by the regime in Kyiv.”

 

25 Feb 2022

Following the vote, the Russian Federation’s delegate explained that his delegation voted against the draft, as it contravenes the interests of the Ukrainian people — who have experienced a tragedy over the last eight years.  He said the negative vote is due to what was left out of the text:  that those who seized power in the coup d’état of 2014 have shelled the people of Donetsk and Luhansk; that Ukraine did not implement the Minsk agreements; and that neo-Nazis and militias continue to kill civilians, adding to such blood-chilling crimes as sniper attacks on protestors in the Maidan.  How can there be a resolution without such issues? he asked.

He went on to emphasize that his country’s troops are not bombing cities nor targeting civilians.

 

26 Feb 2022

Russian Ambassador Vasily Nebenzya said that he would not respond to those who had accused him of abusing his country's veto power.

He accused the draft’s sponsors of “spinning tales” about the true situation in Ukraine, including Western allies’ attempts to cover up the fact that they had been flooding the Donbas with weapons.

“You have made Ukraine a pawn in your own game… this resolution is nothing other than yet another brutal, inhumane move on this Ukrainian chessboard,” he said.

Indeed, the situation is being exploited by political and media outlets, he said, citing examples of the “height of propaganda”, including the misuse of images from Donbas to portray what was being referred to as Russian aggression."  

Speaking to the representatives of France, the UK and US, he said that there was no verifiable confirmation about the death of Ukrainian civilians; that photographs of supposed Russian artillery “is fake”; and that reports of attacks on civilian infrastructure were untrue.

 

https://www.un.org/press/en/2022/sc14808.doc.htm

https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/02/1112802

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by singalion

[sgmaven]

On 3/18/2022 at 4:50 PM, singalion said:

Ok, in nearly all such actions by the US, US and NATO had UN authority to act against other states.

The exception was the bombing of Belgrade / Serbia, where there was ethnic cleansing of Albanians in Kosovo, where the US did not have any UN mandate to act.

You should know that I am not referring to the "above-board" military interventions led by the US. The US, through the CIA and other operatives have done lots of less than savoury things all over the world, to destabilise governments, etc.

 

Hence, I say that it is not a definite that a country has to choose between the US and Russia (or even China for that).

[sgmaven]

On 3/18/2022 at 5:23 PM, singalion said:

Security Council Fails to Adopt Draft Resolution on Ending Ukraine Crisis, as Russian Federation Wields Veto

• Security Council  8979th Meeting 25 February 2022 - 26 February 2022

That is why the UN Security Council is a failed system... Half the time, some Permanent Member will veto a resolution, or water it down so much that it loses its purpose.

 

Russia is not the only one who does this. We also know the US is guilty of it too.

[singalion]

On 3/18/2022 at 6:44 PM, sgmaven said:

You should know that I am not referring to the "above-board" military interventions led by the US. The US, through the CIA and other operatives have done lots of less than savoury things all over the world, to destabilise governments, etc.

 

Hence, I say that it is not a definite that a country has to choose between the US and Russia (or even China for that).

 

Ok, understood, then you better clarify in your earlier post that you meant the "undercover" US CIA operations and not in general the US "wars" .

 

As for Ukraine however, I do not think that there have been any CIA operations to topple the former pro Russian president of Ukraine Yanukovych.

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by singalion

[singalion]

On Ukraine and that neo Nazi - nationalist extremists claim by Putin:

 

 

While during the Maidan incidents national extremist parties played a role on the street protests and participated, Maidan 2014 was a people's movement arising against the frustrations of corrupted Pro Russian politicians in the government and oligarch style businessmen originating from the Eastern Russian parts.

 

That Maidan was a neo Nazi / extremist uprising is however a myth created by Russia/ Putin.

 

On the ethnic fabric of Ukraine:

Note that in a census in 2001 (so long before the Maidan events) the Russians made up to 17% of Ukrainians.

 

While there had been right wing nationalist people involved in the Maidan events in 2013/2014, they were not the majority group that went on the streets.

 

In February 2014 a unity government was formed under Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk and all parties participating in the Maidan revolution (who had seats in the parliament) were given posts. This included ministers from the far right party Svoboda party. 3 out of 20 ministerial posts had been given to Svoboda. Svoboda is a far right party similar to the Le Pen party in France what used to be called the Front National (National Front), eventually even some members a bit more anti-semitic than that French party.

However it must be noted that this initial cabinet from PM Yatsenyuk did not last long, already in July 2014 Svoboda withdraw from the government coalition. The 3 Ministers from Svoboda acted until 12 November 2014, when another government with a different composition was formed.

=> The influence was just a short period.

 

overview:

https://www.dw.com/en/far-right-weighs-on-ukraine-government/a-17519960

 

The following Government of PM Yatsenyuk II in December 2014 did not contain any posts of Svoboda ministers and since that time Svoboda was never again party to any Ukrainian government.

 

Here you can have a picture of the relevance of this Svoboda party in the Ukrainian parliament.

 

2006	91,321	0.36	0 / 450	0	Extra-parliamentary
2007	178,660	0.76	0 / 450	0	Extra-parliamentary
2012	2,129,246	10.45	37 / 450	37	Opposition (2012-2014)
					First Yatsenyuk government (2014)
2014	741,517	4.71	6 / 450	31	Opposition
2019[a]	315,530	2.15	1 / 450	5	Opposition

 

You can see that the party did not gain any traction in the political landscape.

Ukraine wide they have like 3 mayors in cities in the very West of Ukraine.

 

This is just totally overblown by Putin.

 

This whole claim on right wing "Nazis" in the Ukraine government is simply Russian fiction.

The Ukrainian government was never controlled by right wing extremists and the participation was marginal and very short in time after the Maidan 2014 ousting of the Pro Russian President Yanukovych .

Putin is just left in the mindset of the first government after the ousting of the Pro Russian president Yanukovych (and never updated himself).

 

Again just propaganda from Putin.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by singalion

[sgmaven]

When I said alignment of countries to the US or Russia, it is with this in mind. None of them are angels, using all sorts of tactics to fulfill their own goals.

[sgmaven]

The Ukrainian parliament doesn't even contain any far-right Neo Nazis, since they did not hit the 5% threshold during the last elections to gain a seat in parliament.

[Steve5380]

On 3/18/2022 at 12:57 AM, sgmaven said:

Some people seem to see the world as "light" and "dark", "yin" and "yang". There is no compulsion for anyone or any country to "choose" between the US and Russia. Hence, the existence of the Non-Aligned Movement.

 

Both the US and Russia are no angels. Just because one country does something non-kosher at the moment, does not mean that the other will not commit similar atrocities later. Why the need to "choose" to align with them, when you know that they are likely to play you out?

 

Thank you for recognizing that Russia has no rights, no valid claims against Ukraine.  If nations have the right to be non-aligned,  then they should also have the right to align. And this should be exclusively the decision of the habitants of the nations.   It is like if you have the right to not be choosy in who you have sex with,  then you also have the right to choose a guy over a gal,  and the State, the Church, parents should stay out of your decision.

[Steve5380]

On 3/18/2022 at 4:47 AM, Guest Home Sweet Home said:

How could they not?  They shared the same culture, tradition, religion, chinse food, speak the same language and shared the same ancestors.  To them, westerners are alien.    Taiwan, is the prodigal son of PRC.  I fear if they became independent, America will sell them drugs, guns and convert them to fundamentalist Christians to preach hate.  Taiwan is better off going back to its mainland which is they true home. 

 

Are you a Taiwanese to know that "for them, westerners are alien"?  In the story in the Bible,  the prodigal son came back to his family by his own will.  His father didn't threatened him with war if he didn't return home. 

 

Maybe you are afraid that Taiwan could follow the same destiny as Singapore,  where being independent allowed all the fast food stores,  all your fundamental Christians who preach hate of gays,  to come into your country?

 

Not anyone, not I and not you,  should dictate to the Taiwanese what they should do.  And it turns out that they have already democratically elected to side with the West and away from the PRC.  From a poll of Taiwanese:

 

In a Taiwanese Public Opinion Foundation poll conducted in June 2020, 54% of respondents supported de jure independence for Taiwan, 23.4% preferred maintaining the status quo, 12.5% favored unification with China, and 10% did not hold any particular view on the matter.

 

Only 12.5% want to become "prodigal sons of PRC",  ha ha!

[Steve5380]

On 3/18/2022 at 7:30 AM, sgmaven said:

When I said alignment of countries to the US or Russia, it is with this in mind. None of them are angels, using all sorts of tactics to fulfill their own goals.

 

We cannot even be sure that angels actually exist or are just a product of the imagination.

 

"All sort of tactics" is a cope out of recognizing some fundamental differences:  it is not the same to infiltrate a foreign country with the goal of creating a government change,  and fiercely and ruthlessly bomb the hell in a country killing thousands of their civilians to force them to change their government.

[Guest Guest Don’t Confuse]

On 3/17/2022 at 10:20 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

OH... what part of international law did I forget?

Since you are so good at pointing out where others have written inaccurate posts without justifying your position, I’m not going to do your work for you. It’s all on the internet.

[Guest both sides of the coin]

On 3/18/2022 at 10:29 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

We cannot even be sure that angels actually exist or are just a product of the imagination.

 

"All sort of tactics" is a cope out of recognizing some fundamental differences:  it is not the same to infiltrate a foreign country with the goal of creating a government change,  and fiercely and ruthlessly bomb the hell in a country killing thousands of their civilians to force them to change their government.

 

Sure the US is a good example of both variants also.

Some attempts actually failed very  extremely.

 

 

[Guest Half sides of the coin]

On 3/18/2022 at 10:16 PM, Steve5380 said:

In a Taiwanese Public Opinion Foundation poll conducted in June 2020, 54% of respondents supported de jure independence for Taiwan, 23.4% preferred maintaining the status quo, 12.5% favored unification with China, and 10% did not hold any particular view on the matter.

 

In a different thread you said,  you don't give much on polls.

Take it as you need it?

[Guest Your biased view]

On 3/18/2022 at 10:29 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

 

On 3/18/2022 at 10:29 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

We cannot even be sure that angels actually exist or are just a product of the imagination.

 

"All sort of tactics" is a cope out of recognizing some fundamental differences:  it is not the same to infiltrate a foreign country with the goal of creating a government change,  and fiercely and ruthlessly bomb the hell in a country killing thousands of their civilians to force them to change their government.

America did that all the time too. Especially in Arab countries like Iraq and Afghanistan.  The toppling of Ukraine democratically elected pro Russian President and then installed with pro America president cannot be a coincident nor considered a democracy.

 

 

[singalion]

What toppling of pro Russian President Yanukovych? 

 

On 21 Feb 2014 Yanukovych signed an agreement with the parliament to hold early elections on 25 May 2014. 

Yanukovych left the country secretly on next day. 

 

The Ukrainian parlament voted him out of power with a 73% vote on the day he fled. 

 

The 328 of 447 members of the Ukrainian parliament MPs who were elected in 2012 and voted for the removal of Yanukovych were all puppets from the US or instigated by the CIA?

 

Enough of this Putin propaganda!

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by singalion

[Steve5380]

On 3/18/2022 at 10:20 AM, Guest Guest Don’t Confuse said:

Since you are so good at pointing out where others have written inaccurate posts without justifying your position, I’m not going to do your work for you. It’s all on the internet.

 

Of course, you are not going to do what you cannot do.  

 

You were caught in a falsity.  But I won't resent you for that.  It's your karma.

[Steve5380]

On 3/18/2022 at 10:46 AM, Guest Half sides of the coin said:

 

In a different thread you said,  you don't give much on polls.

Take it as you need it?

 

There are polls and polls.

 

 

[sgmaven]

On 3/18/2022 at 10:29 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

We cannot even be sure that angels actually exist or are just a product of the imagination.

 

"All sort of tactics" is a cope out of recognizing some fundamental differences:  it is not the same to infiltrate a foreign country with the goal of creating a government change,  and fiercely and ruthlessly bomb the hell in a country killing thousands of their civilians to force them to change their government.

You mean the US was not guilty of that in Indo-China? Not only carpet-bombing and laying landmines, but the widespread indiscriminate use of Agent Orange?

[sgmaven]

When looking at the situation in the Ukraine, one has to look at what NATO has been doing since the fall of the Iron Curtain. It had lost its primary purpose to counter the threat of invasion of the Warsaw Pact. Let's be frank, what was the point of the continued enlargement of NATO? At that point of in time, Russia was in no state to take on the West in a war, as it is now. However, NATO continued to push to enlarge itself. Against what, you might ask?

 

Do not forget that many nations in Europe still hold on to notions of grandeur and power from an age that has passed. A time when they could pillage their colonies and enrich themselves to appear stronger than what they really are. I sometimes laugh at the likes of Macron, whose attempts to mediate in the Ukrainian invasion have failed miserably. Why would Putin even bother with him?

 

Before the Russian invasion, when all seemed stable in Europe, don't forget that NATO was attempting to stretch its influence over to the Asia-Pacific region. No doubt, this would have caused alarm in Beijing, and even places like New Delhi. The declaration of unlimited friendship between Russia and China came as a result. No doubt to counter their worry of the ever-expanding scope NATO seems to be having. Since when is Asia-Pacific part of the North Atlantic? And if NATO is purely defensive, why meddle in the Asia Pacific, which is far away from the Asia-Pacific?

 

Sure, the US and Europe have allies in the Asia-Pacific region, such as Japan and South Korea, but that is besides the point. I am glad that most of the countries in the Asia-Pacific region haven't outright aligned themselves with a particular power (even though many have defense arrangements with the US, China or Russia). Otherwise, this part of the world would be another theatre for proxy wars, much like what the Ukraine is fast becoming.

[singalion]

On 3/19/2022 at 1:33 PM, sgmaven said:

You mean the US was not guilty of that in Indo-China? Not only carpet-bombing and laying landmines, but the widespread indiscriminate use of Agent Orange?

 

To add on: Until today the US is not willing to seriously compensate Laos ( a country not having anything to do with the Vietnam war) for the indiscriminate usage of Agent Orange and US cluster bombs and land mines in Laos.

 

The worst the US has never officially apologised to Laos for this injustice (until today) and refused to pay any monies to clear the bombs and mines for many years and ignored their own deeds.

 

It were Aid organisations from Europe that spent funds to assist in clearing the bombs from the soil in Laos.

 

However, only in 2016 when Obama visited Laos , US confirmed to pay 90 millions USD to clear the cluster bombs and mines.

The United States announced on Tuesday 5 Sep 2016 it would provide an additional $90 million over the next three years to help Laos, heavily bombed during the Vietnam War, clear unexploded ordnance that has killed or injured more than 20,000 people.

 

Facts:

 

The U.S. military sprayed 12 million gallons of dioxin-contaminated Agent Orange and eight million gallons of other herbicides on Vietnam and parts of Laos and Cambodia between 1961 and 1971 to kill vast swathes of forest and cropland during the Vietnam War,

 

Why Laos Has Been Bombed More Than Any Other Country

American bombers dropped more than two million tons of bombs over the country as part of a covert attempt to wrest power from communist forces.

 

The U.S. bombing of Laos (1964-1973) was part of a covert attempt by the CIA

 

The officially neutral country became a battleground in the Cold War between the United States and Soviet Union, with American bombers dropping over two million tons of cluster bombs over Laos—more than all the bombs dropped during WWII combined. Today, Laos is the most heavily bombed nation in history. Here are facts about the so-called secret war in Laos. The U.S. Air Force began bombing targets in Laos in 1964, flying planes like AC-130s and B-52s full of cluster bombs on covert missions based out of Thailand. The United States eventually dropped the equivalent of a planeload of bombs every eight minutes, 24 hours a day, for nine years,

 

 

By 1975, one-tenth of the population of Laos, or 200,000 civilians and members of the military, were dead. Twice as many were wounded. Seven hundred and fifty thousand, a full quarter of the population, had become refugees—including General Vang Pao himself. Declassified documents show that 728 Americans died in Laos, most of whom were working for the CIA. The secret war in Laos, or the Laos Civil War to many who lived through it, set a precedent for a more militarized CIA with the power to engage in covert conflicts around the world.

 

 

In Laos, the legacy of U.S. bombs continues to wreak havoc. Since 1964, more than 50,000 Lao have been killed or injured by U.S. bombs, 98 percent of them civilians. An estimated 30 percent of the bombs dropped on Laos failed to explode upon impact, and in the years since the bombing ended, 20,000 people have been killed or maimed by the estimated 80 million bombs left behind.

 

 

 

 

Mine clearance therefore is an aid priority for Laos. MAG (Mines Advisory Group) works extensively in Xieng Khouang, which lies on the border with Vietnam and is one of the most bombed places on Earth.

Over the past five years MAG has destroyed 150,000 UXO remnants in Laos, and cleared 24m square metres of land. As Sean Sutton from the organisation says: "Areas previously hindered by the presence, or suspected presence, of landmines and UXO can now be used for population resettlement, the construction of wells, schools and health centres and improvements to roads."

 

Nevertheless, the task remains daunting. Despite working in the country for 15 years, it is estimated that less than 1% of submunitions have been cleared.

Until the moral revulsion at using these weapons is universally recognised through binding treaties, and until the international community is prepared to invest sufficiently in their clearance, countries such as Laos will be paying the price for decades to come.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by singalion

[sgmaven]

On 3/18/2022 at 10:29 PM, Steve5380 said:

We cannot even be sure that angels actually exist or are just a product of the imagination.

I think you are trying to skirt around this by being pedantic. Neither Russia or the US can claim any moral highground, due to their dismal track record with wars.

 

To have countries in the Permanent Seats of the Security Council of the United Nations is a bit of a joke. They are there because they were the first to have nuclear bombs, can could potentially kill millions with those. For as long as the "world order" is supposedly to be maintained by well-armed bullies who can decimate countries at will, it is a lost cause. The last few decades were only considered "peaceful" because no nuclear power went to into direct conflict with each other, but chose instead to engage in proxy wars.

 

Just look at how NATO has responded to the crisis in the Ukraine. They want to isolate it outside their soil, so that they don't need to "risk escalation". Meanwhile, they continue to stir the pot...

[singalion]

On 3/19/2022 at 2:23 PM, sgmaven said:

I think you are trying to skirt around this by being pedantic. Neither Russia or the US can claim any moral highground, due to their dismal track record with wars.

 

To have countries in the Permanent Seats of the Security Council of the United Nations is a bit of a joke. They are there because they were the first to have nuclear bombs, can could potentially kill millions with those. For as long as the "world order" is supposedly to be maintained by well-armed bullies who can decimate countries at will, it is a lost cause. The last few decades were only considered "peaceful" because no nuclear power went to into direct conflict with each other, but chose instead to engage in proxy wars.

 

Just look at how NATO has responded to the crisis in the Ukraine. They want to isolate it outside their soil, so that they don't need to "risk escalation". Meanwhile, they continue to stir the pot...

 

That the UN needs reform is known for long. There have been initiatives but so far they failed due to the obstruction from the Permanent members at the Security council.

 

I intend to point you to a different angle of the issue.

 

The problem in my view is that Russia/Putin is still stuck in that "sphere of influence" thinking.

 

We should not disallow independent countries to join any sides.

Currently, it is the will of Ukraine to be part of NATO.

 

In 2014 Putin already made any entry of Ukraine into NATO difficult when he invaded Crimea and the Donbas region.

NATO (and also EU) have provisions that countries who did not settle their territorial disputes cannot join.

From that point any membership of the Ukraine into NATO was not immediate.

 

Russia is in denial that the Soviet Union and also the East-West division in Europe broke down after 1990.

 

Do you think the world will look better if Ukraine develops into a second Belarus?

 

The main issue is that Russia did not respect the sovereignty of Ukraine.

Ukraine was no longer the home turf of Russia when it gained independence.

 

As I wrote before, it was Russia that had it in its hands to allow Ukraine independence only if it stayed "neutral". But Russia missed this "chance" in 1991/ 1994.

 

Do you actually think Ukraine as a member of NATO would be a serious threat to Russia?

 

The biggest threat to Russia is its own decline as an economic power the past 30 years.

 

 

 

[singalion]

On 3/19/2022 at 2:23 PM, sgmaven said:

For as long as the "world order" is supposedly to be maintained by well-armed bullies who can decimate countries at will, it is a lost cause.

 

Hopefully you included in your post another bully:

 

[sgmaven]

On 3/19/2022 at 4:17 PM, singalion said:

 

Hopefully you included in your post another bully:

 

All the permanent seats on the Security Council are bullies...

[Steve5380]

On 3/19/2022 at 12:50 AM, sgmaven said:

When looking at the situation in the Ukraine, one has to look at what NATO has been doing since the fall of the Iron Curtain. It had lost its primary purpose to counter the threat of invasion of the Warsaw Pact. Let's be frank, what was the point of the continued enlargement of NATO? At that point of in time, Russia was in no state to take on the West in a war, as it is now. However, NATO continued to push to enlarge itself. Against what, you might ask?

 

Do not forget that many nations in Europe still hold on to notions of grandeur and power from an age that has passed. A time when they could pillage their colonies and enrich themselves to appear stronger than what they really are. I sometimes laugh at the likes of Macron, whose attempts to mediate in the Ukrainian invasion have failed miserably. Why would Putin even bother with him?

 

Before the Russian invasion, when all seemed stable in Europe, don't forget that NATO was attempting to stretch its influence over to the Asia-Pacific region. No doubt, this would have caused alarm in Beijing, and even places like New Delhi. The declaration of unlimited friendship between Russia and China came as a result. No doubt to counter their worry of the ever-expanding scope NATO seems to be having. Since when is Asia-Pacific part of the North Atlantic? And if NATO is purely defensive, why meddle in the Asia Pacific, which is far away from the Asia-Pacific?

 

Sure, the US and Europe have allies in the Asia-Pacific region, such as Japan and South Korea, but that is besides the point. I am glad that most of the countries in the Asia-Pacific region haven't outright aligned themselves with a particular power (even though many have defense arrangements with the US, China or Russia). Otherwise, this part of the world would be another theatre for proxy wars, much like what the Ukraine is fast becoming.

 

Why are you asking all these questions here?

 

Why don't you ask the nations that have joined NATO recently?  And these who plan to join them?  You think they are after some slavery in the hands of America and the original NATO countries?   Or are they attracted by the much better quality of life and freedoms experienced in the NATO countries?

 

Look at Ukraine in particular.  This nation has suffered so much in the days it was a satellite of Russian in the Soviet Union.  They suffered like no other country in Soviet Union during the World Wars.   And then, ask yourself WHY they would like to join Russia after all what this powerful country with its perverse totalitarian regime is doing to them NOW?  Would YOU like to befriend people who have killed most of your family?

 

Would you like Singapore to end any friendship with NATO and instead become a partner with Russia?   You may be able to keep your billionaires, but forget all your rich commerce with the free countries of the world.   And how would you like to change the common language taught in your schools from English to Russian?  But who knows!  you may look forward then to enjoy cheaper vodka. 

[sgmaven]

On 3/20/2022 at 2:44 AM, Steve5380 said:

Why don't you ask the nations that have joined NATO recently?  And these who plan to join them?  You think they are after some slavery in the hands of America and the original NATO countries?   Or are they attracted by the much better quality of life and freedoms experienced in the NATO countries?

NATO is a defense pact, the EU is the entity that people would want to join for your referred quality of life and freedoms. Please note the difference.

 

On 3/20/2022 at 2:44 AM, Steve5380 said:

Look at Ukraine in particular.  This nation has suffered so much in the days it was a satellite of Russian in the Soviet Union.  They suffered like no other country in Soviet Union during the World Wars.   And then, ask yourself WHY they would like to join Russia after all what this powerful country with its perverse totalitarian regime is doing to them NOW?  Would YOU like to befriend people who have killed most of your family?

 

Would you like Singapore to end any friendship with NATO and instead become a partner with Russia?   You may be able to keep your billionaires, but forget all your rich commerce with the free countries of the world.   And how would you like to change the common language taught in your schools from English to Russian?  But who knows!  you may look forward then to enjoy cheaper vodka. 

Like I said, one DOES NOT have to choose NATO or Russia. One can choose to remain non-aligned. Please don't think that the world can only consist of countries that back the US, and those that back Russia. That is ridiculous thinking!

[sgmaven]

I would say that the world would be in a better place without the interference of any permanent member of the UN Security Council.

 

Let the countries decide on what they want to do. Choosing democracy does not mean backing the US or Europe. Please understand that!

[singalion]

On 3/20/2022 at 2:44 AM, Steve5380 said:

Why don't you ask the nations that have joined NATO recently?  And these who plan to join them?  You think they are after some slavery in the hands of America and the original NATO countries?   Or are they attracted by the much better quality of life and freedoms experienced in the NATO countries?

 

Stop, stop, stop!

We should not confuse  a military pact such as NATO as a human rights body. Membership does not refer to quality of life or liberties but just having a functioning stable democratic system. There is no requirement of liberties in the sense of human rights. 

 

here:

The first chapter -- political and economic issues -- requires candidates to have stable democratic systems, pursue the peaceful settlement of territorial and ethnic disputes, have good relations with their neighbors, show commitment to the rule of law and human rights, establish democratic and civilian control of their armed forces, and have a market economy.

(Best negative example is Turkey and not just recent years, refer to the military coups in past )

 

Personal liberties are more relevant when it comes to the EU. 

 

[singalion]

On 3/20/2022 at 5:56 AM, sgmaven said:

NATO is a defense pact, the EU is the entity that people would want to join for your referred quality of life and freedoms. Please note the difference.

 

Like I said, one DOES NOT have to choose NATO or Russia. One can choose to remain non-aligned. Please don't think that the world can only consist of countries that back the US, and those that back Russia. That is ridiculous thinking!

 

I think your perspective is too Asian immersed as you can understand the Eastern European countries. 

 

Why did all the Eastern European countries plan to join NATO asap?

 

Do these countries assess US as a danger or military threat or ?

 

Take Hungrary 1956, look at Poland during Solidarinosc in 1980s. Or look at a small poor state totally irrelevant in size and political power as Moldova for a more recent case. 

 

While the US might not have been happy with some British PMs or French president, did the US invade these countries and execute the democratically elected Government?

 

Now, you may spend a moment to think by what means such countries can prevent an attack or being made part of an imagined line of territorial sphere of interest?

 

And did Russia respect any "non aligned" countries in Europe in the past 30 years? Name me one!

 

I think you need to turn your head more into the European perspective to understand the issue. 

 

 

[sgmaven]

On 3/20/2022 at 1:20 PM, Guest Oh Really said:

How do you explain BREXIT then.

I am referring to the Eastern European countries. Not referring to current members wanting out...

[sgmaven]

On 3/20/2022 at 1:39 PM, singalion said:

 

I think your perspective is too Asian immersed as you can understand the Eastern European countries. 

 

Why did all the Eastern European countries plan to join NATO asap?

 

Do these countries assess US as a danger or military threat or ?

 

Take Hungrary 1956, look at Poland during Solidarinosc in 1980s. Or look at a small poor state totally irrelevant in size and political power as Moldova for a more recent case. 

 

While the US might not have been happy with some British PMs or French president, did the US invade these countries and execute the democratically elected Government?

 

Now, you may spend a moment to think by what means such countries can prevent an attack or being made part of an imagined line of territorial sphere of interest?

 

And did Russia respect any "non aligned" countries in Europe in the past 30 years? Name me one!

 

I think you need to turn your head more into the European perspective to understand the issue.

I beg to differ, Russia, at the collapse of the Soviet Union, wasn't trying to gain back its "lost territory" or any grandeur of empire. However, the increasing "scope" and membership of NATO only gave rise to a Russia, who needed to make sure it can stand up against an entire "continent" committed to "controlling" Russia. If you ask me to "see it from the European perspective", then I will ask you to "see it from the Russian perspective".

 

Many European States, having been great powers at some stage in history, like to look back on the glory days. It is not just Russia. Just look at the likes of the UK and France, who try to "project power" beyond what they are really capable of militarily. This is the source of the undeniable national pride. When much of the continent of Europe then seems intent on uniting to counter an already weakened Russia, I am sure that it did not sit well will the Russians.

 

And yet, NATO continued to egg other on.

 

Meanwhile, in Russia, the failure of transformation into a truly free economy, but instead into an economy controlled by a select group of oligarchs caused some distress. What better leaf out of the playbook, than to distract the discontented masses with an external enemy?

 

You mentioned Hungary in 1956 or Poland in the 1980s. Well, that was wit the Soviet system still functioning as per normal, and the Cold War still raging. The US would definitely not have risked intervention in Warsaw Pact countries, since that would escalate into all out war between the US and the USSR. Quite like how the West is refusing to set up a no-fly-zone above the Ukraine currently.

 

Then you mention that the US does not invade UK or France, just because someone not so palatable gets elected. It does not mean that they do not try to influence the elections before that happens. Using force to depose of those governments would not get very much support within the US too. I doubt any US President would be able to get both chambers to support that kind of war.

 

As for non-alignment, you first have to look at Russia post-Soviet Union. While they did try to continue to unify what used to be the Soviet Union into the Commonwealth of Independent States, it did not invade those countries when most of them decided not to get involved with the CIS. Russia's current aggressive stance is very much a result of the NATO versus Russia play in the European theatre by the West. They really have been provoked over and over.

 

While I do not agree with the tactics that Putin is using, especially with the Annexation of Crimea in 2014, and the subsequent funding of separatists in Eastern Ukraine, culminating in this invasion. I don't think that Russia is the only one to blame for this catastrophe.

[singalion]

On 3/20/2022 at 2:45 PM, sgmaven said:

You mentioned Hungary in 1956 or Poland in the 1980s. Well, that was wit the Soviet system still functioning as per normal, and the Cold War still raging.

 

If the Soviet system had been functioning the uprisals in the east had not happened after war.

 

It only reflected that the Central Eastern European countries had been forced to align into a sphere of control but it was not desired by the people.

 

The 1990 opening of these countries and change is the best evidence, that people in these countries did not want to be in the sphere of Russia.

[singalion]

On 3/20/2022 at 2:45 PM, sgmaven said:

The US would definitely not have risked intervention in Warsaw Pact countries, since that would escalate into all out war between the US and the USSR.

 

And that is exactly the reason why Ukraine intends to join NATO. (at least a huge majority of Ukrainians).

 

To fend off what is happening just now. Russia attempting to take control. Ukrainian don't want to be a satellite under the mercy of Russia.

 

In my personal view the "non alignment" does not work with Russia because Russia does not respect sovereignty.

 

Russia has come down to realise that they are no longer the power of the past the same that Austria had to realise that they don't govern 2/3 of a continent bigger than their own country's size.

 

 

[sgmaven]

On 3/20/2022 at 4:51 PM, singalion said:

 

And that is exactly the reason why Ukraine intends to join NATO. (at least a huge majority of Ukrainians).

 

To fend off what is happening just now. Russia attempting to take control. Ukrainian don't want to be a satellite under the mercy of Russia.

 

In my personal view the "non alignment" does not work with Russia because Russia does not respect sovereignty.

 

Russia has come down to realise that they are no longer the power of the past the same that Austria had to realise that they don't govern 2/3 of a continent bigger than their own country's size.

I beg to differ, I still think that the West bears some guilt in pushing Russia to the edge in this. If you fail to see this point of view, and acknowledge that it exists, then you are as blind as those who think the world is just black and white.