Buddhism's Perspective On Homosexuality & Gay Marriage (Compiled)

[snowball]

是人，就有偏见，就有分别心，

就会以为高人一等，认为自己说的话是对的，

假借宗教名义来满足自己私欲的人太多了，

满口仁义道德，说的比唱的好听，但私底下做的又是另一套，

只有迷失没主见的人才会盲从。

没认清自己的宝藏， 而四处寻找，

只会离真理越来越远。

无法自己安心的人，

永远不能得到真正的心安，

无法一视同仁的人，

也还是个普通人。

佛教，是一個倫理体系、一套生活法則，

佛教，是智慧的教育，

佛教，严格来说，它根本不是一个宗教，

它已经超越了一切有相。

Edited June 25, 2014 by snowball

[Guest Guest]

Buddism treats homosexuality like heterosexuality. Definitely no discrimination here.

However while the religion itself is neutral, I wonder if some Buddists themselves take their own (homophobic) stand.

So whether a person is homophobic or not does not entirely depend on his/her religion. Just like how there are Christians out there who are really nice people and who are more than accepting of us (supportive even :] ), it is not impossible to find Buddists who may not be so welcoming of us.

But this thread is talking about Buddism as a religion, so, yes. Buddism does not discriminate against homosexuals. Your character and your actions determine you, not your sexuality.

[Guest Guest]

Quoted from the link OP shared.

"Homosexuality is also regularly linked with sexual ‘decadence’ in general. Homosexuals are said to be paedophiles, or promiscuous, or to cause diseases such as AIDS. Allowing homosexual relations is to licence all manner of debaucheries. This objection, too, is not valid: gays behave in all sorts of ways, just as do straight people.

Blaming gays for AIDS is one of the most cruel arguments possible. We feel compelled to look for examples that show the absurdity of these views. What of babies born with AIDS? What of those who get AIDS via blood transfusion? Incidence of malaria is much greater among poor people – are we to blame them, too? And why is incidence of AIDS among lesbians so very low – is lesbianism kammically preferable?

But we shouldn’t have to look for such examples. Like the arguments mentioned above, the whole thing is missing the point. Take the ‘worst case’ scenario, the cliché of the promiscuous, irresponsible, drug-taking, careless gay man. We might not think his behaviour is praiseworthy or wise, but does it deserve a slow, lingering, and painful death? Are we really comfortable to righteously proclaim the justice of destroying a human life, because we think that the way they have sought pleasure is irresponsible? This whole argument is inhuman and unworthy."

[Guest guest 23]

Dear All,

 

Here is the English translation of  Karaniya Metta Sutta: The Buddha's Words on Loving-kindness where the Buddha taught us to love ALL beings regardless of gender, race, religion, colour, creed and in this context, sexuality. Source :http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/khp/khp.9.amar.html

This is what should be done By one who is skilled in goodness,

 

And who knows the path of peace: Let them be able and upright,

 

Straightforward and gentle in speech, Humble and not conceited,

 

Contented and easily satisfied, Unburdened with duties and frugal in their ways.

 

Peaceful and calm and wise and skillful, Not proud or demanding in nature.

 

Let them not do the slightest thing That the wise would later reprove.

 

Wishing: In gladness and in safety, May all beings be at ease.

 

Whatever living beings there may be; Whether they are weak or strong, omitting none,

 

The great or the mighty, medium, short or small, The seen and the unseen,

 

Those living near and far away, Those born and to-be-born —

 

May all beings be at ease! Let none deceive another,

 

Or despise any being in any state. Let none through anger or ill-will Wish harm upon another.

 

Even as a mother protects with her life Her child, her only child,

 

So with a boundless heart Should one cherish all living beings;

 

Radiating kindness over the entire world: Spreading upwards to the skies,

 

And downwards to the depths; Outwards and unbounded,

 

Freed from hatred and ill-will. Whether standing or walking, seated or lying down

 

Free from drowsiness, One should sustain this recollection.

 

This is said to be the sublime abiding. By not holding to fixed views,

 

The pure-hearted one, having clarity of vision, Being freed from all sense desires,

 

Is not born again into this world.

 

May love and peace prevail!

 

Guest 23

 

[charvo87]

It is a still a sin in Buddhism.

There are no sins in buddhism only karma.

[ezzeq]

I was just quoting what someone said to me before...haha

[lausanne]

I was just quoting what someone said to me before...haha

I think you should be ignored. Pure and simple. You don't think before you post. 

[Guest Me again]

Buddhist do not condemn homosexual but Mahayana Buddhist does not accept homosexual sex.  It's nothing specific to gay man.  It's that Buddhism does not allow the penis to be used other than for intercourse with woman.  Of course can be used to urinate but for sex purpose, only with woman.

 

[Guest Guest]

There are, apparently, 4 types of Buddhism.?

http://www.amtb.org.tw/e-bud/releases/4kinds.htm
http://www.findingdulcinea.com/guides/Religion-and-Spirituality/Buddhism.pg_00.html

 

However, generally, for the most part, Buddhism has no issue with homosexuality and treats it like heterosexuality. It's what you do, not who you are, that matters.  

[benedict5856]

The world does not revolve around Lawrence Khong.

Who gives a damn what he thinks.

 

Afterall, I heard his grandchild is illegimate. In the bible, these are called as basxxxx and for 10th generation, their descendants are not allowed to enter the temple of God.

 

Correct his own family before come correct us.

[Guest Me Again]

There are, apparently, 4 types of Buddhism.?

http://www.amtb.org.tw/e-bud/releases/4kinds.htm

http://www.findingdulcinea.com/guides/Religion-and-Spirituality/Buddhism.pg_00.html

 

However, generally, for the most part, Buddhism has no issue with homosexuality and treats it like heterosexuality. It's what you do, not who you are, that matters.  

 

But Mahayana Buddhism does say that if you use the penis to enter the wrong hole, the karma is in the lowest realm.... so Buddhism avoided the problem of condemning a person but in essence it's up to the person to think he is being condemned or not.

 

Buddhism and Christianity is also different in that Christian's God dictates.  Buddhism's "self" dictates.  

 

But if a person is delusion bound, then he dictates his future without knowing or accepting it.  If he reads the sutra or listen to the master speaks the sutra, he will hear himself "being condemned".  Reason why he doesn't feel condemned is that he actually don't believe Buddhism.

[Guest Me Again]

The world does not revolve around Lawrence Khong.

Who gives a damn what he thinks.

 

Afterall, I heard his grandchild is illegimate. In the bible, these are called as basxxxx and for 10th generation, their descendants are not allowed to enter the temple of God.

 

Correct his own family before come correct us.

 

Of course, it does not revolve around LK.  It revolved around GOD.

[Guest Guest22]

If God wanted everyone to be straight, he would’ve created us so.

July 01, 2014 in Commentaries

By Kai Teo
Pictures: Roslan Rahman via Getty Images

The giant heart, to simply ask Singaporeans to have bigger hearts.

 

Buddha Mag respects and fights for the right of every human being to practise their religion, and sexuality.

As long as it is not imposed onto others. Simple, isn’t it? We really don’t care who you worship at home, as long as you don’t force-feed it down my children’s throats. And whoever you choose to have sex with is none of our business as well.

That’s freedom, respect, and basic human rights. And yes, that’s what some people call “moral degradation”.

Last weekend, Singapore saw its biggest ever Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT) rally, the Pink Dot movement. 26,000 turned up to show their support for LGBT rights. That’s cool.

What’s not cool, is the protest against this, which happened in the same weekend, urging Singaporean families to “preserve purity at home”. Also called the “Wear White” campaign, it took place in a mega church with 6,000 fervent members.

So church leaders have always taken a strong stance against homosexuality, saying that God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

Well, believe what you want, be super straight in your family, if that’s cool for you, it’s cool for us. But calling homosexuality a “moral degradation” in public? Big no no.

You see, it’s not a question of morality here. Homosexuals are born into homosexuality, it’s the same as being born Chinese, Malay, Indian, or born with a longer index finger than the middle finger. It’s not like we can decide this. Kids as young as three have expressed their preference for a certain gender in romantic love, or expressed their own desire to identify with a certain gender.

That’s not bad parenting. That’s nature. Parents don’t deliberately indoctrinate their kids with gay values. Have you ever heard a parent say to their son, “Look boy, you really should like boys and in the future, get married with one.”? Nope.

And if sexuality is truly a choice, then everyone would choose to be bisexual. This way, we can pick anyone!

This whole idea of “curing” homosexuality too, is as ludicrous as Michael Jackson changing his skin colour. To all the straight people out there, how about trying to be gay for one day, try to have sex with someone of the same gender. Difficult, if not impossible, isn’t it? As a straight man, I would be really uncomfortable in the presence of another male’s erected penis, regardless of whether it touches me or not.

So if we can’t turn gay, how can we expect a homosexual to turn straight? It’s not some multiple-choice Who Wants to Be a Millionaire shit: “I pick option A for Sexuality, because then I can advance to the next round and get myself one step closer to being a morally upright person.” Right.

So in Creationist terms, God created homosexuals the way they are. And that’s what he intended.

Purpose? To test their faith in unconditional love for human beings, and to test their strength amidst the widespread persecution and bigotry, and despite the non-acceptance from fellow Christians or Muslims, still believe in Him.

Think about it, if there was a God, he wouldn’t tell you, “Oh, you can’t love this person if you want to go to heaven.” He would probably say, “If you understand and practise true love for humanity, you’d be pretty safe.”

Of course, God’s purpose for us is beyond our meagre human understanding. And we really can’t put into human language what he wants or doesn’t want for us. Most of what we’ve decided as religious rules, are mere human interpretation.

God would probably tell us to love unconditionally. And respect freedom. And God would probably tell us all to live by this motto, “Your freedom ends where another person’s freedom begins.”

The LGBT community in Singapore is merely standing together to ask for acceptance.

They’re not telling you to turn gay. They’re not telling your children who to love. They’re not trying to corrupt your morals. All they want is to not be seen like a freak. And have the equal rights to love another human being. How can that be wrong?

Because they can’t make babies? It’s a personal choice whether or not they want to have kids. And even if homosexual couples choose to have a child, there’s artificial insemination, there’s adoption, or pretty soon someone might come up with an iPad app for that.

And if you’re thinking, “Oh no, that will create the next generation of homosexual children! The horror!” That’s a stupid thought. Gay parents are equally capable of loving their kids, and these kids will not be brought up being encouraged to be gay, or straight. Rather, they will be taught to understand that everyone should be who they are, and can be loved no matter who they are, and more importantly, they will know that true love conquers all.

Wham, bam, pow! Meaning of life figured out, right from age 0! Beat that.

“So if they wear pink, why can’t we wear white?”

Well, that’s because they’re not telling you that it’s not cool to be straight. The LGBT community, and people supporting the movement, are not saying that being straight is a “degradation of the moral fibre of society”.

So Singaporeans, it’s alright if you don’t want to be gay. Just don’t go telling a homosexual that they’re doing something wrong.

Personal freedom. Learn to respect that. You can only go as far as saying, ”That’s not my thing.” I mean, look, in our country, it’s already illegal for a man to fuck another man. What’s next? You want us to ban holding hands?

So be nice, let another human being love who he or she wants to. Because God would probably have a bigger heart than to say “No” to love.

Source: http://www.buddhamag.org/singapore/2014/7/if-god-wanted-everyone-to-be-straight-he-wouldve-created-us-so
 

[Guest WP]

You talking about the Wear White ?  If the newspaper did not report it, you also won't know, right ?  So you should blame the Newspaper for imposing on you instead ?

 

I seriously don't think the Wear White impose themselves on Pink Dot.  Pink has pink say.  White has white say.  Fair.

 

In fact, this can go on for many years.  Pink and White Dot events on the same day and nothing will change so long as the White Dot don't step into the Pink Dot and the Pink Dot don't step into their White Dot on the day itself.

 

 

[ndbt]

see the little person holding pink torchlight over there? yep that's me :3

[navyblue]

"If sexuality is truly a choice, then everyone would choose to be bisexual. This way, we can choose anyone."

Thumbs up!

[Guest WP]

Homosexuality is born or nurture, no proof of either.

Trying to think back in time to see your first sex thought does not prove anything.

Even if "born", it could be a deviation since inception.

 

So taking this line of argument does not move the discussion forward, just create deadlock.

[Guest WP]

Homosexuality is born or nurture, no proof of either.

Trying to think back in time to see your first sex thought does not prove anything.

Even if "born", it could be a deviation since inception.

 

So taking this line of argument does not move the discussion forward, just create deadlock.

[Guest Guest]

Please do not use God as a reason for everything !! Devils/Evils/Satans also produces lots of evil straights offsprings and gays and bisexual !! Got that !

[Guest Guest]

Please do not use God as a reason for everything !! Devils/Evils/Satans also produces lots of evil straights offsprings and gays and bisexual !! Got that !

Very right ! Many things these days are creations of devils , evils and satans ......

[Guest Guest]

Please do not use God as a reason for everything !! Devils/Evils/Satans also produces lots of evil straights offsprings and gays and bisexual !! Got that !

Very right ! Many things these days are creations of devils , evils and satans ......

[Guest Guest]

You talking about the Wear White ?  If the newspaper did not report it, you also won't know, right ?  So you should blame the Newspaper for imposing on you instead ?

 

I seriously don't think the Wear White impose themselves on Pink Dot.  Pink has pink say.  White has white say.  Fair.

 

In fact, this can go on for many years.  Pink and White Dot events on the same day and nothing will change so long as the White Dot don't step into the Pink Dot and the Pink Dot don't step into their White Dot on the day itself.

There is perfectly nothing wrong with having your own religious beliefs. Okay, so homosexuality is apparently a sin in your religion. Fine. But one shouldn't go all out just to forcefully impose that on others, so that others align themselves to your beliefs. 

Pink Dot was formed to peacefully celebrate the freedom to love, and it's been here since 2009. Do you, and have you ever heard the LGBT community, and people supporting the movement, saying that being straight is a “degradation of the moral fibre of society”? Pink Dot is a call for acceptance. For more open-mindedness, sensitivity and less ignorance. Never has it asked, nor encouraged people to "turn gay". On the contrary, it has encouraged people to be themselves, and live a meaningful life. Pink Dot has never made any aggressive attack on any particular group of people.

Wear White was formed on the basis of, dare I say, hatred, really. It was formed as an open opposition to Pink Dot - without Pink Dot this movement would never have surfaced. It even states so on its webpage. Hate packaged nicely. But, oh well, ff course, it is also entitled its freedom of belief. Fine. It's your religion. But it openly shoots down homosexuality. Do you see the Pink Dot movement doing this? Do we forcefully impose on others?

In any case, I'm glad there was no public clash between the 2 sides on 28th June. I guess that's 1 thing I am sure we both are glad of. 

[Guest]

Everyone is allowed to their own opinions. However, when your opinion is hateful/hurtful to someone that hasn't done you or anyone any personal harm, it becomes a problem. Example: You hate hats. That's fine, some hats can be a little obnoxious or whatever. But when you try to pass a law saying I can't wear my hat, or come up to me and tell me my hat makes me a terrible person, you have crossed a line.

[Guest WP]

There is perfectly nothing wrong with having your own religious beliefs. Okay, so homosexuality is apparently a sin in your religion. Fine. But one shouldn't go all out just to forcefully impose that on others, so that others align themselves to your beliefs. 

Pink Dot was formed to peacefully celebrate the freedom to love, and it's been here since 2009. Do you, and have you ever heard the LGBT community, and people supporting the movement, saying that being straight is a “degradation of the moral fibre of society”? Pink Dot is a call for acceptance. For more open-mindedness, sensitivity and less ignorance. Never has it asked, nor encouraged people to "turn gay". On the contrary, it has encouraged people to be themselves, and live a meaningful life. Pink Dot has never made any aggressive attack on any particular group of people.

Wear White was formed on the basis of, dare I say, hatred, really. It was formed as an open opposition to Pink Dot - without Pink Dot this movement would never have surfaced. It even states so on its webpage. Hate packaged nicely. But, oh well, ff course, it is also entitled its freedom of belief. Fine. It's your religion. But it openly shoots down homosexuality. Do you see the Pink Dot movement doing this? Do we forcefully impose on others?

In any case, I'm glad there was no public clash between the 2 sides on 28th June. I guess that's 1 thing I am sure we both are glad of. 

 

I respect your interpretation of the events that roll out. 

 

1, I think many LGBT are deeply influenced by the west on this issue.  They see the condemnation of the religious zealots there.  Internet tend to play up these things very well.  However, the hatred, the condemnation, the discrimination over there do not take root here.  Because of this, LGBT "retaliate" against the local religious organisation with too strong a force.  I'm not just talking about the Pink Dot, I'm talking about what I read on the internet as well.  You also cannot rule out people instigating the locals, be it from overseas or from people who have some vested interest, like some business opportunities, or people who just like to create a mess in our country.

 

2. Now that the Pink Dot is growing, won't you expect the Churches to respond ?  Now, you see it... yes, the system is getting more and more unstable.  When one side strikes and the other side also strike, the pendulum will just swing more violently.  This will not solve the problem.

 

3. I see that since both side do not see eye to eye on the issue, the only outcome is a compromise on both sides.  And I think both side must accept that there will be a compromise.  I don't know what that compromise will be but I hope in the short term, the Churches will ensure that their members will not openly condemn LGBTs while LGBT continue to live as of now.  I suggest that the Churches will excommunicate their member if they are proven to be repetitive and unrepentant condemners. I know, there is no gain for the LGBT in this short term.  But, you see, at least, if one side does not strike the pendulum as hard as before, it will give it a chance to slow down and may be there is a chance for both side to come together to reach the next compromise.

 

4. How does the Church establish itself ?  What are the strategies it uses ?  You see there are many mission trips that takes them to many neighbouring countries to build schools, hospitals. etc.  These are the things that open doors and give them the chance to preach.  They don't go to a country and ask for acceptance straight away !   I think this is something that LGBT can consider doing.  Organise some social groups in SIngapore.  It's when people see the good in you, that they will wonder why they have been calling you names before.  You will then start to get your acceptance.  But I think it's hard.  Cause people are naturally selfish.  They just want and not give.  That's why LGBT groups lose out to the religious organsation.  Also, not much money can be made in organising soclal activities and there won't be much sponsors for such event.  But please, if you want to really gain acceptance, do consider.

 

My English is not very good and I am not able to express my thought very thoroughly.  I hope you get the gist of what I'm trying to say.

[lohwpr]

Very right ! Many things these days are creations of devils , evils and satans ......

Yes, BUT, let's not forget that GOD also put humans on earth and allows devils to roam among us. 

 

I keep wondering why does HE put these 2 together in one place..... Test of character?

 

It is like asking Adam not to eat the apple and HE put the apple tree there........

Edited July 4, 2014 by lohwpr

[Guest WP]

Everyone is allowed to their own opinions. However, when your opinion is hateful/hurtful to someone that hasn't done you or anyone any personal harm, it becomes a problem. Example: You hate hats. That's fine, some hats can be a little obnoxious or whatever. But when you try to pass a law saying I can't wear my hat, or come up to me and tell me my hat makes me a terrible person, you have crossed a line.

 

As for calling them hateful, may I say "Pot calling the Kettle Black" ?  I think there is also hatred on the LGBT side. 

 

S377A is a toothless tiger.  It's not enforced if unless sex is done in public, which is the same for hetersexuals.  

 

And the law is not passed by the Churches.  It's passed by Parliament. 

[Guest WP]

Yes, BUT, let's not forget that GOD also put human on earth and allows devils to roam among us. 

 

I keep wondering why does HE put these 2 together in one place..... Test of character?

 

It is like asking Adam not to eat the apple and HE put the apple tree there........

 

You see, your objective is to request for Acceptance ?  But you start criticising other people's belief.  Why do you need to do that ?  Aren't you making matter worse ? 

[Guest Linkar]

Discrimination and bullying does exist, my friend. It is very real. It's just that you have not experienced it.

[Guest Tan]

Actually, I don't disagree that sometimes the LGBTQ movement can be somewhat in-your-face. (and this again leds to the general public having a wrong perception of us)   No peace is going to be achieved if both parties simply protest and put down each other without a chance for a proper, rational and calm dialogue.

 

[Guest WP]

Discrimination and bullying does exist, my friend. It is very real. It's just that you have not experienced it.

 

Not just against LGBT.  When I was young, people called me fatty.  Of course, I don't like it.

 

But we need to look at the larger picture.  Is this PINK vs WHITE and internet exchanges going to bring about your acceptance ?  If yes, it would have happened.

 

So I'm proposing that instead of forcing the other side to yield, why not try another approach ?  As I have suggest earlier,

 

And I'm against outsiders (non Singaporeans)  participating in this.  This relates to the stability of Singapore and the law in Singapore.  They should not participate.

[Guest WP]

Discrimination and bullying does exist, my friend. It is very real. It's just that you have not experienced it.

 

Not just against LGBT.  When I was young, people called me fatty.  Of course, I don't like it.

 

But we need to look at the larger picture.  Is this PINK vs WHITE and internet exchanges going to bring about your acceptance ?  If yes, it would have happened.

 

So I'm proposing that instead of forcing the other side to yield, why not try another approach ?  As I have suggest earlier,

 

And I'm against outsiders (non Singaporeans)  participating in this.  This relates to the stability of Singapore and the law in Singapore.  They should not participate.

[Guest Guest]

Discrimination and bullying does exist, my friend. It is very real. It's just that you have not experienced it.

Of course ! I discriminate against the rich , highly educated , greedy bosses and people all my life

!! They are as equal as poor uneducated people these days !! Both are of equally low EQ , unreasonable idiots !!

[gz69a]

When religion takes a stand on homosexuality, I find it such a farce.  History and even events now going on:

 

-  In the name of religion, thousands have been killed, injured.  Wars have been fought and are still being fought.

 

-  Priests have indulged in sex, have molested children (boys, girls).  And Church leadership have covered up.

 

-  Priests and monks have stolen from the church or from charities.

 

-  The jihad going on in Iraq is also under the banner of religion.   And they kill in cold-blood too.

 

So does Religion in general has the moral authority to comment on homosexuality when there are more important issues to be addressed?  Pastor Lawrence Khong should devote his energy to taking care of the poor, the sick and the homeless. That will be God's Will for him.

 

"It is God's Will..." is often invoked for all kinds of situation. It is God's Will that I am gay.  If He wants me to change, He has to do it, not Religion nor any Law of the Land.  I just do not feel sinful.  I am what I am. 

[Guest Dan]

As for calling them hateful, may I say "Pot calling the Kettle Black" ? I think there is also hatred on the LGBT side.

S377A is a toothless tiger. It's not enforced if unless sex is done in public, which is the same for hetersexuals.

And the law is not passed by the Churches. It's passed by Parliament.

If it's a toothless tiger, why do people fight so hard to retain it? To make themselves feel more superior? Is this what laws are for?

[Guest WP]

If it's a toothless tiger, why do people fight so hard to retain it? To make themselves feel more superior? Is this what laws are for?

 

It's a toothless tiger cause there is no enforcement so long as you don't it in public.  Why retain it ?   Why not ?  It does not affect LGBT status in private unless, you want to talk about same-sex marriage.  If you do, then let's talk about same-sex marriage and not repeal of S377A.

[abang]

十年河东， 十年河西。。。

知否时事长变， 变换才是永恒 （罗文的家变）

谁料石头他朝成翡翠（薰妮的每当变换时）

 

Ignore the BAD in others... see the GOOD in them because we are above board.

Others can instigate dislike and hatred, but we are NOBLE.

If they want to segregate society, let them do it because we know that is against the WILL OF GOD... whichever GOD you believe in..... 

 

人在做， 天在看 （ TVB 名句）。

[Guest Dan]

It's a toothless tiger cause there is no enforcement so long as you don't it in public. Why retain it ? Why not ? It does not affect LGBT status in private unless, you want to talk about same-sex marriage. If you do, then let's talk about same-sex marriage and not repeal of S377A.

Why not retain it? Because it makes those targeted feel discriminated enough to hold pink dot. There are already other laws against doing it in public regardless of sexual orientation if that is what you are concerned about.

[Guest Guest]

It may not be enforced, but its existence is a sign. It is a silent message - a silent symbol.

 

You talk about how Christians generally don't receive much like from the LGBTQ community and how much we "criticize" it. 

 

Ask yourself: in all the recent happenings, who started the fire? The LGBTQ community or those religious extremists? Who started the offence during the HPB sexuality FAQ saga? All the unnecessary, and irrational hate speech, who started it? Who stirred things up during Pink Dot?

It's true there is a general dislike for Christians in this community, but not all. 'Cause we know there are some true Christians out there who preach love, and aren't blind and selective. What bad things religion has done all in the name of their own religious beliefs - anyone would get sick of it. 

 

In fact, the Pink Dot organisers have called for an open dialogue to mediate things. Hopefully those people open their minds and hearts more and something good may actually come out of this. 

But looking at how things are, they don't even want an open, proper dialogue.

 

[Guest WP]

Why not retain it? Because it makes those targeted feel discriminated enough to hold pink dot. There are already other laws against doing it in public regardless of sexual orientation if that is what you are concerned about.

 

I cannot give a satisfactory answer to you.  I can understand how you feel.  But I think if you seriously sit down and think, it does nothing to me, do I even bother ?  But if I were to fight it, I get retaliation from the other side and I have to waste time fighting and fighting it... I probably loose more than just ignore it.

 

If you just leave it and go on, you do not loose anything (if you are not pushing for more than just repealing 377a).

 

(I want to say that there could be people instigating this.  Esp people from the west, like US.  They love to mess up other people's house, and shift the focus away from the mess in their house)

 

The only problem here is that repealing S377A will lead to fear of the next fight for gay marriage.  This is a much bigger topic.  What about repealing S377A and introduce a new law to ban same sex marriage ?  I know, you say I'm stupid cause gays cannot get married in Singapore.  My point is that 377a is that barrier to gay marriage.  So you think s377a is "discriminatory" and you want to repeal it but your objective is not to further the cause of gay marriage, then we replace it with another barrier to gay marriage, so that you are not "discriminated" when you have sex but the other side have the assurance that they still have a barrier toward same sex marriage ?

 

I'm just chatting with you.  I know there will some discussion over this but I don't want to spend too much time discussing. I just want to share an idea I have.

 

Anyway, we have deviated from the subject.

[Guest WP]

It may not be enforced, but its existence is a sign. It is a silent message - a silent symbol.

 

You talk about how Christians generally don't receive much like from the LGBTQ community and how much we "criticize" it. 

 

Ask yourself: in all the recent happenings, who started the fire? The LGBTQ community or those religious extremists? Who started the offence during the HPB sexuality FAQ saga? All the unnecessary, and irrational hate speech, who started it? Who stirred things up during Pink Dot?

It's true there is a general dislike for Christians in this community, but not all. 'Cause we know there are some true Christians out there who preach love, and aren't blind and selective. What bad things religion has done all in the name of their own religious beliefs - anyone would get sick of it. 

 

In fact, the Pink Dot organisers have called for an open dialogue to mediate things. Hopefully those people open their minds and hearts more and something good may actually come out of this. 

But looking at how things are, they don't even want an open, proper dialogue.

 

Personally, I think both sides are at fault.  Both sides should understand that there will be no perfect solution to this and that it will only be a compromise.  But both side expect their side to "win".  Thus we will never reach a common ground and this will continue with no end in sight. In the end, both side are doing the country in.

 

I think you might have overlook that there are LGBT who are causing problems also.  One thing I want to say is LGBT cannot change religions.  LGBT cannot expect Christian to give up their belief.  I see LGBT people attacking their believes.  They question their belief, they question their bible.  I think you should not.  The government already given them the freedom of religion.  Therefore, they are entitled to their belief.  If you don't believe, it's your prerogative.  But they also have the prerogative to belief.  So I hope LGBT would stop this.

 

What LGBT can expect from them is to be tolerant.  Yes, you don't like us, but can you respect us.

 

Another thing is that, there is no representatives from the LGBT side.   I'm not an expert in this... While Churches have different denominations, they still have representative, other than non-denominated Churches.  If LGBT can have a rep, I think it will be easier cause instead of communicating through the public media, the 2 groups can sit down and talk.  Like I've said, there will be no perfect answer but only a compromise on both sides.  And you can sit down and come to that compromise and jointly announce it... wow !  

 

Deviated from the topic again... cheers !

[snowball]

法律不可能是绝对公正合理公平的 ， 它只要能抚平多数人 ， 就够了 ，

不是吗? 就算是天平 ，也要看是谁在秤 。

Edited July 5, 2014 by snowball

[Guest Dan]

I cannot give a satisfactory answer to you. I can understand how you feel. But I think if you seriously sit down and think, it does nothing to me, do I even bother ? But if I were to fight it, I get retaliation from the other side and I have to waste time fighting and fighting it... I probably loose more than just ignore it.

If you just leave it and go on, you do not loose anything (if you are not pushing for more than just repealing 377a).

(I want to say that there could be people instigating this. Esp people from the west, like US. They love to mess up other people's house, and shift the focus away from the mess in their house)

The only problem here is that repealing S377A will lead to fear of the next fight for gay marriage. This is a much bigger topic. What about repealing S377A and introduce a new law to ban same sex marriage ? I know, you say I'm stupid cause gays cannot get married in Singapore. My point is that 377a is that barrier to gay marriage. So you think s377a is "discriminatory" and you want to repeal it but your objective is not to further the cause of gay marriage, then we replace it with another barrier to gay marriage, so that you are not "discriminated" when you have sex but the other side have the assurance that they still have a barrier toward same sex marriage ?

I'm just chatting with you. I know there will some discussion over this but I don't want to spend too much time discussing. I just want to share an idea I have.

Anyway, we have deviated from the subject.

Why should the repeal of a discriminatory law be conditioned on the introduction of another discriminatory law? Why is it so difficult to treat people who are different from you the same way as you would like to be treated by others?

[Guest Ka]

I cannot give a satisfactory answer to you.  I can understand how you feel.  But I think if you seriously sit down and think, it does nothing to me, do I even bother ?  But if I were to fight it, I get retaliation from the other side and I have to waste time fighting and fighting it... I probably loose more than just ignore it.

 

If you just leave it and go on, you do not loose anything (if you are not pushing for more than just repealing 377a).

 

Why do we "even bother"?

Firstly, WP, it is a fact that 377A is not actively enforced. However it is still in the law, written in clear black and white. It exists.

While true that there are assurances made by the government of non-enforcement, it is not the same as a repeal of 377A. The present policy of non-enforcement can be changed, and changed without notice for whatever reason the government of the day may deem fit. The fact is, it's a symbol. When deemed fit, anyone can easily use it against us. Let's say I force you to wear a jacked sealed with numerous bombs. I assure you, I won't trigger it. But you need to be aware you can die any second should I suddenly change my mind and trigger it. Now, I want you to live your life as normal. What kind of feeling does that give you? Do you feel secure? Do you feel uncertain and fear? It's a silent, deadly weapon, hanging above us. It may not be in use, but it is clearly there for everyone to see. It's a silent, succinct, yet clear message of how unstable the grounds we actually are standing on. Everything can be conveniently turned against us in any second. Furthermore, while 377A may not be enforced, discriminatory policies can potentially be built on the logic of its existence. After all, the law is the law and the law is the government's official stand. If it really was "unneeded" in the first place, then why still have it? Precisely the reason I suggested - a symbol. And someday this has to go. Because the gay community will never be able to move forward much when we are officially acknowledged as criminals by the government. It serves to tell us - "You are second class citizens and are not treated equally. In fact you better watch your backs!"

 

Regarding whether "Singapore is ready for a repeal of 377A", I'm not qualified to comment on that. I'm not declining the possibility of learning something from this, though.

 

 But if I were to fight it, I get retaliation from the other side and I have to waste time fighting and fighting it... I probably loose more than just ignore it.

 

If you just leave it and go on, you do not loose anything (if you are not pushing for more than just repealing 377a).

I'm somewhat baffled by this part. Really? We shouldn't do anything for the fear of ruffling feathers and for the fear of failing? Then what should we do? Live as sitting ducks and let the LGBTQ community stay stagnant and criminalised forever?

Look at history. How was equality achieved around the world?

Not everyone is going to agree with everyone. There will always be people who disagree, and consequently unintentionally offended. But what we are fighting for are basic human rights. We're not asking for special rights, you know? We're not disillusioned. We just want to be treated equally. To be able to truly be ourselves without fear and to live life, to contribute to society as happily and as equally as others do. And this starts with greater awareness. Gently letting the public understand more about us. You make it sound like we're going on parades and strikes and protests, like we're starting riots and causing instability and bloodshed.  The only "protest" we're having is Pink Dot - and for a "protest", it sure is pretty peaceful and the atmosphere is loving. *sigh* Again, all the drama recently was caused by the other parties. We played not the slightest part in aggravating the situation. The organisers of Pink Dot didn't release some statement rebutting the other parties with colourful words, did they?

We know change will not be easy and it takes time. We're not officially calling for same-sex marriages to be allowed (not yet anyway). It is in our minds but for now we need to start with the basics first. Allowing others to understand us, and to diffuse ignorance. Small, yet succinct steps. One step closer... 

 

 

 

(I want to say that there could be people instigating this.  Esp people from the west, like US.  They love to mess up other people's house, and shift the focus away from the mess in their house)

 

The only problem here is that repealing S377A will lead to fear of the next fight for gay marriage.  This is a much bigger topic.  What about repealing S377A and introduce a new law to ban same sex marriage ?  I know, you say I'm stupid cause gays cannot get married in Singapore.  My point is that 377a is that barrier to gay marriage.  So you think s377a is "discriminatory" and you want to repeal it but your objective is not to further the cause of gay marriage, then we replace it with another barrier to gay marriage, so that you are not "discriminated" when you have sex but the other side have the assurance that they still have a barrier toward same sex marriage ?

 

I'm just chatting with you.  I know there will some discussion over this but I don't want to spend too much time discussing. I just want to share an idea I have.

 

Anyway, we have deviated from the subject.

You're suggesting that should S377A be appealed, another new law would be introduced to ban same sex marriage? Now why would that happen? In order to appease the 2 religions?     

...Strange.

 

Are you sure you completely understand S377A and what it really means, and how it really impacts the Singapore society? You make it sound like this law is useless and we're just over-reacting kids "fighting" for something meaningless.

Repealing 377A may not definitely eradicate all forms of discrimination immediately, but it brings hope to the LGBTQ community in a way. It's a pathway opened to a brighter, happier future.

 

 

 

I think you might have overlook that there are LGBT who are causing problems also.  One thing I want to say is LGBT cannot change religions.  LGBT cannot expect Christian to give up their belief.  I see LGBT people attacking their believes.  They question their belief, they question their bible.  I think you should not.  The government already given them the freedom of religion.  Therefore, they are entitled to their belief.  If you don't believe, it's your prerogative.  But they also have the prerogative to belief.  So I hope LGBT would stop this.

 

What LGBT can expect from them is to be tolerant.  Yes, you don't like us, but can you respect us.

 

 

I won't attempt to dis-acknowledge the fact that, yes, we are not doing some things as well as we could have. Both parties are at fault, yes.

With that said, I need you to stop and contemplate for a minute. These are all part of the chain reaction started by them. Worse still, they are still a catalyst today, aggravating the situation and hindering a possible peaceful dialogue. This reaction doesn't look like it's going to stop soon, looking at the way things are now.

 

Funny thing is they are also doing the exact same thing in your reply to the LGBTQs. Let me illustrate.

 

 

 

One thing I want to say is LGBT cannot change sexuality.  Religions cannot expect LGBTQs to give in and live oppressed, unhappy,  false lives and not be true to themselves.  I see those people attacking LGBTQs for simply being themselves.  They question their sanity, they question their morals.  I think you should not.  They receive enough shit already and officially, they only have a non-confrontational, peaceful Pink Dot every year.  Therefore, they are entitled to their belief.  If you don't believe, it's your prerogative.  But they also have the prerogative to belief.  So I hope they would stop this.

 

What the LGBTQs are simply asking for is, at the very basic, minimal level, tolerance. Yes, you don't like us, but can you respect us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another thing is that, there is no representatives from the LGBT side.   I'm not an expert in this... While Churches have different denominations, they still have representative, other than non-denominated Churches.  If LGBT can have a rep, I think it will be easier cause instead of communicating through the public media, the 2 groups can sit down and talk.  Like I've said, there will be no perfect answer but only a compromise on both sides.  And you can sit down and come to that compromise and jointly announce it... wow !  

 

You're probably right. I'm not too politically-inclined, so I don't know what I can say about this. Don't we already have some capable advocators for LGBTQs in Singapore? The Pink Dot ambassadors? Janice Koh, also a nominated member of parliament? She's capable, and she has been a great help and figure in this movement for equal rights so far. Kudos to her. 

 

 

I think it's good there's discussion on this. While there may be some rougher edges, I believe they may be smoothened eventually with rational behaviour, compassion, understanding and the diffusion of ignorance on the part of both sides. 

I certainly hope Singapore doesn't go down the path of America when it comes to this topic. While I am genuinely more than overjoyed that same-sex marriages are embraced not only by the government, but also by the increasingly accepting population there, I feel that there is a lack of deeper open dialogues there. Because anyone who shows the slightest disagreement with LGBTQs are met with much hate and labelling as a bigot. While I don't agree with these people (and yes, they ARE bigots), I feel that this sort of thing could be handled better there such that more peaceful and open dialogues can actually occur. In a way, this actually shifts the balance unevenly against the conservatives. Without open dialogues, deep understanding and true acceptance cannot occur. While we may not like nor necessarily agree with what they say, there should at least be an peaceful open dialogue to communicate between different parties, so that we may patiently educate them, instead of shutting them out. That's sort of like avoiding the issue.

Do I sound like a hypocrite? I really am not trying to and I hope what I've said makes sense. Anyone gets what I'm trying to say here.

 

 

法律不可能是绝对公正合理公平的 ， 它只要能抚平多数人 ， 就够了 ，

不是吗? 就算是天平 ，也要看是谁在秤 。

Wise words.  ^^

[Guest Guest]

correction: line 5 should be jacket instead of jacked

 

><  -.-

[Guest 丹]

法律不可能是绝对公正合理公平的 ， 它只要能抚平多数人 ， 就够了 ，

不是吗? 就算是天平 ，也要看是谁在秤 。

难道少数人的权力不重要吗？难道能抚平多数人的法律就算是公正合理公平的吗？

[Guest practitioner]

Dear All,

 

In the Discourse of Loving Kindness or Karaniya Metta Sutta, the Buddha taught us to love everyone REGARDLESS of gender, religion, race, colour including sexual orientation. In fact, this extends to ALL living beings. Below is the English translation :-

 

Let none deceive another, Or despise any being in any state.

Let none through anger or ill-will Wish harm upon another.

Even as a mother protects with her life Her child, her only child,

So with a boundless heart, Should one cherish all living beings;

Radiating kindness over the entire world:

 

Let us all be united in caring for each other without having thoughts of ill-will.!

[Guest Song]

Dear All,

 

In the Discourse of Loving Kindness or Karaniya Metta Sutta, the Buddha taught us to love everyone REGARDLESS of gender, religion, race, colour including sexual orientation. In fact, this extends to ALL living beings. Below is the English translation :-

 

Let none deceive another, Or despise any being in any state.

Let none through anger or ill-will Wish harm upon another.

Even as a mother protects with her life Her child, her only child,

So with a boundless heart, Should one cherish all living beings;

Radiating kindness over the entire world:

 

Let us all be united in caring for each other without having thoughts of ill-will.!

 

I think the Buddhist don't condemn the gay person.  But when it comes to the gay sex, it's a different matter. Even heterosexuals are not allowed to have anal sex or oral sex. 

[Guest Ting]

Gay or straight or bi, nothing wrong with anal nor oral sex in Buddhism as long as it's not destructive behaviour. Constructive behaviours have good intentions, motivations and good effects. Destructive is the opposite.

In Buddhism, "good" sex is when it is done unselfishly and because you love and want to be intimate with the other person. "Bad" sex eg. Prostitution, etc

[Guest Song]

Gay or straight or bi, nothing wrong with anal nor oral sex in Buddhism as long as it's not destructive behaviour. Constructive behaviours have good intentions, motivations and good effects. Destructive is the opposite.

In Buddhism, "good" sex is when it is done unselfishly and because you love and want to be intimate with the other person. "Bad" sex eg. Prostitution, etc

 

Friend. Don't be mislead by what others tell you about this constructive/destructive thing.  Are you enlightened ?  If not, then better not participate in any anal/oral sex if you really believe in Buddhism.

[Guest Guest]

Sources?

I'm not claiming to be a saint, but aren't you acting self-righteous?