Surrogacy Discussion (compiled)

[Guest Intended parent]

I am curious, is there any organisation in Singapore to help gay and lesbian to arrange for pregnancy, ie, the gay can donate sperm to lesbian couple....and subsequently get help to get his own child?

[mate69]

Not in Singapore

[Guest Guest]

How is that a donation?

[Guest intended parent]

Is it possible to get a pair each of a gay and lesbian couple, sign an agreement, IVF twice then assign one baby to each pair. Or for that matter, a gay and a lesbian and have IVF twice.....

Some organisation can be set up to match such couples together with a database based on the given sperm donor and surrogate mother criteria, to have some control and determination over the characteristics and features of the 'other' parent.

[Chan Chee Wai]

Yes. You can donate your sperm to KK Hospital... your girl friend also can donate eggs.

Lesbian or single are not allowed to have baby in Sngapore. It is illegal. But, can be done one by underground doctor.

[Guest Intended parent]

Seriously i think the LGBT community should help one another. While it is true that not everyone wants kids, be they gays or straights. Yet, for those who want kids, why not have a database to pair willing gay and lesbian together?

[Guest Jack]

It's always good when gays and lesbians who want to be parents collaborate to build families and raise children.

 

I'm not sure but you might want to get in touch with them ... Good luck! 

 

http://olivia.thechiongs.com/

 

https://www.facebook.com/RainbowParentsSG

 

 

[Guest Guest]

Seriously i think the LGBT community should help one another. While it is true that not everyone wants kids, be they gays or straights. Yet, for those who want kids, why not have a database to pair willing gay and lesbian together?

 

couldn't agree more.

[EasleyLim]

Not legally cauze something standard family unit is 1x father mother something child development something pedophile something something religious goonduns.

Edited May 21, 2015 by EasleyLim

[cutejack]

Initially i wanted too but now give up.aiyah juz fuck n go better instead of having n raising kids.raise my cock better still.lolx .btw, i ever called kk hospital n mt e to cheack whether they need any sperm donors but the ans is not in spore.

Edited May 22, 2015 by cutejack

[Guest Guest]

When u see the horrible job that some heteros are doing raising their kids, you wonder why we're objecting to those loving homo parents bringing up happy well-adjusted children. 

 

Anyway it's not a matter of whether it's allowed or not allowed, it's already happening in Singapore amongst those who have the means to afford it. If it boosts Singapore's falling birth rates and brings happiness to loving LGBT couples, why not?

 

Just see quote below taken from a previous thread.

 

 

Quote

MOST OF OUR SINGAPORE CLIENTS ARE GAY COUPLES: US SURROGACY AGENCY

A surrogacy agency in the United States says most of its Singapore clients are gay men who are partners and want to be parents.
One of the men would supply the sperm, and they would use a donor egg and surrogate mother to have their baby, said the British Surrogacy Centre of California (BSC).
It told The Sunday Times that it has seen between five and eight couples a year from Singapore over the past few years and most were gay men.
The first babies to a couple from Singapore were born in 2006.
The twins, a boy and a girl, were born to a Singaporean man and his British partner, who both worked in banking.
The centre's chief executive, Mr Barrie Drewitt-Barlow, said gay partners who want children usually head for countries that accord same-sex couples parental responsibility, such as the US and Britain. The birth certificate would list both men as the child's parents.
As one partner is the biological father of the child, there is no need for an adoption process, he said. "You don't have to adopt your own child."
He said his clients from Singapore have been well-heeled professionals in their late 30s and 40s, many working in finance, medicine or the media industries, who can afford to pay more than US$100,000 (S$125,000) to have a child through surrogacy.
The BSC was the only one among those contacted by The Sunday Times that said most of its clients were gay men.
Surrogacy agencies and fertility clinics in other countries said their Singaporean clients were mainly heterosexual couples unable to have children of their own.
For children born by Thai surrogates in Bangkok, the Singaporean couple adopts the child in Thailand in order to bring their baby back to Singapore, said Asian Surrogates' Mr Michael Ho.
This is because the Thai birth certificate would list the surrogate as the child's mother, with the Singaporean man who supplied the sperm named as the child's father.
He said: "Our Singaporean couples have had no problems bringing their babies back home."

 

 

[Guest Intended Father]

I am looking at surrogacy in CA currently. According to them, Your name will be on the birth certificate. There is a court process that will be completed here in the Unitded States, for you to be able to apply for your child’s passport. Then you can bring back the child to Sgp. They will control budget and to keep costs down. they will work hard to create best packages financially. But you need to prepare 75k to 100k USD for the entire journey of surrogacy program.

[mate69]

For me personally, the amount of money spent would be better channelled to other uses like investments so as to grow my wealth

as much as possible.

 

So, no children for me.

[Guest Intended parent]

I am looking at surrogacy in CA currently. According to them, Your name will be on the birth certificate. There is a court process that will be completed here in the Unitded States, for you to be able to apply for your child’s passport. Then you can bring back the child to Sgp. They will control budget and to keep costs down. they will work hard to create best packages financially. But you need to prepare 75k to 100k USD for the entire journey of surrogacy program.

I had contact LA previously......it is way more expensive than that...there are a lot of hidden cost. Want to meet and exchang notes?

[Guest Intended Father]

You need to ask a few agencies and compare the price. Expect miracle and Tammuz agency are cheaper with good services n quality. No hidden cost. They are IP run agency. I will tell you how to control your budget. Sure , we can arrange meetup by email, line, whatsapp, wechat etc. what is your ID ?

[Guest Guest]

Be careful with such things... I would recommend you consult a friendly lawyer...   

[Guest Intended father]

No worries. I have done enough research. The agency recommend to outside attorneys to avoid conflict of interests, they will give me a referral when time comes.

[IpMan]

post deleted

Edited May 24, 2015 by IpMan

[Guest Intended Father]

I have "lobang" in China where these yound girls wanted to go abortion.

I can only do the paper work to have the father's name (your name) appeared in the birth certificate legally.

How to bring back the child to Singapore, I'll leave it to the legal father.

I have helped a filthy rich Singaporean married couple many years ago. Flew many times to China. I think the ah girl-girl next year should be in primary one.

We want to have biological child that are genetic related to us, not adopted child. And if we do the surrogacy child in U.S., the child will be automatically become US citizen in the birth certificate and given US passport. only your name will be placed on the birth certificate, less risky, and minimal legal exposure, or possible complications. Your recommendation is for heterosexual married couple, not for same sex couple. it's very difficult to bring back child to Singapore.

[IpMan]

post deleted

Edited May 24, 2015 by IpMan

[Guest Intended Father]

Not really adoption. My reason is, the term legal adoption process involves massive paper works, fees and tiresome approval because real biological mother and father names appeared in the birth certificate.

You are right that my recommendation is for heterosexual married Singaporean couple only. I am able to skip the full legal adoption process which I can't share here and couple is able to bring the baby back to Singapore at ease.

You want biological related to you. It is challenging!

Years ago, I have all kind of contacts from China. The women are jobless Bachelor degree graduates. So, high IQ baby is almost certain. A baby with Asian (black hair + fair skin) blood is needless to say. The total expenses for surrogacy charges, IVF and miscelleanous fees, added up are way much cheaper than US.

Let say, you have done the surrogacy in United States, and supposedly the baby is born, with the biological mother's name and your name printed in all legal documents. How sure are you that the baby can be brought back to Singapore under an umarried Singaporean man's name?!

I lived in US for many years and I do not believe US surrogacy agency advertisement. Believe me, MSF and ICA is going to question you who is the mother or your wife ultimately.

The child has passport n birth certificate with US citizen . It's legal by law. Who is going to question u unless you wanted to convert your child to Singaporean.. There is no mother name in the child certificate thru Gestational surrogacy.

[Guest Guest]

It takes a lot to make two macho grown men wet in the eyes, but wet in the eyes we got, my partner of 8 years and I, when we saw this thread. So there's really "lobang" for gay couples to have babies on this forum itself. We are both gonna work damn hard to save money and contact one of you guys in two years' time to start our family. Keep this thread alive! 

[IpMan]

post deleted

Edited January 23, 2016 by IpMan

[Guest Intended Father]

1. You can apply long term visa pass for your baby to stay in Singapore . So the baby can keep his US citizenship. At the age of 21, your child can also petition for you to come over United states immediately if you wanted to retire or migrate to U.S.

2. If you do not want to apply long term visa, For US passport, the maximum duration to stay in Singapore is 90 days. every 90 days have to exit Singapore like going JB and re-enter back Singapore.

[Guest Intended father]

For the same sex couple or single man who desire to have kids that have biologically connected to them, California is the best place to fulfil your dream in a way the child has your name on the birth certificate automatically and granted U.S Citizen by birth. Tammuz agency has guarantee package with no hidden cost at 109K USD max. The difference between standard and guarantee is that guarantee includes multiple attempts, surrogates, ivf etc. until you have a baby, while standard plan you pay for each attempt. The child born thru Tammuz agency will be given both US passport and Israel Passport which means your child has dual citizenship by birth.

Other than that like Thailand , Nepel , Sg etc the child need to be adopted and the legal is quite complex n risky n the law is not favor for same sex couple or single man.

[Guest Guest]

For the same sex couple or single man who desire to have kids that have biologically connected to them, California is the best place to fulfil your dream in a way the child has your name on the birth certificate automatically and granted U.S Citizen by birth. Tammuz agency has guarantee package with no hidden cost at 109K USD max. The difference between standard and guarantee is that guarantee includes multiple attempts, surrogates, ivf etc. until you have a baby, while standard plan you pay for each attempt. The child born thru Tammuz agency will be given both US passport and Israel Passport which means your child has dual citizenship by birth.

Other than that like Thailand , Nepel , Sg etc the child need to be adopted and the legal is quite complex n risky n the law is not favor for same sex couple or single man.

Sounds like good news for Singapore gay couples who want to have their own kids.

Anyone has experience with this agency? Can share your experiences?

The fees are rather high but USD100 is quite affordable for elite professionals like doctors, lawyers or bankers though. Are there any cheaper alternatives for the common folks like us?

[Guest Intended Father]

Sounds like good news for Singapore gay couples who want to have their own kids.

Anyone has experience with this agency? Can share your experiences?

The fees are rather high but USD100 is quite affordable for elite professionals like doctors, lawyers or bankers though. Are there any cheaper alternatives for the common folks like us?

Yes. That's the agency. The cheaper alternatives for common folks is doing the surrogacy in Nepel. The estimated cost of surrogacy for standard plan is 34k USD and guarantee plan is 55k USD. Your child will be automatically become Israel citizenship and holding Israel passport. If you are Malaysian, your child can't enter the Malaysia because Israeli passport holders are not permitted to enter Malaysia without written permission from the Malaysian. If you are Singaporean, you are fine with that. If you still prefer doing in U.S., there is few ways to cut cost:

1. Choose surrogate with insurance plan

2. Use frozen egg donor instead of fresh egg from

http://www.eggdonoramerica.com

https://www.donoreggbankusa.com/our-program

3. Use traditional surrogacy rather than Gestational surrogacy

4. Ask friends to donor eggs Or ask friends/relative/family member to become surrogate to carry your child

The cost will be reduced significantly to 70k USD

This is Google baby documentary: you can watch it thru

[Guest Intended parent]

You need to ask a few agencies and compare the price. Expect miracle and Tammuz agency are cheaper with good services n quality. No hidden cost. They are IP run agency. I will tell you how to control your budget. Sure , we can arrange meetup by email, line, whatsapp, wechat etc. what is your ID ?

It seems that moderator does not permit exchangeofemails or identity, I tried to post my email address here.

I do not have line, we hat etc.....I am very old tech.

Do you have any suggestion we could meet to exchange notes?

[Andrew ang525]

You need to ask a few agencies and compare the price. Expect miracle and Tammuz agency are cheaper with good services n quality. No hidden cost. They are IP run agency. I will tell you how to control your budget. Sure , we can arrange meetup by email, line, whatsapp, wechat etc. what is your ID ?

Hi intended father, I was intended parent, and I had created an account hoping to get in touch with you.

[Guest Intended Father]

Hi intended father, I was intended parent, and I had created an account hoping to get in touch with you.

Sure. I sent you a msg to your account already

[doncoin]

A gay couple friend of mine went through surrogacy and now have one of the most adorable baby boy.

 

My partner and I have discussed about it before. My sister had actually volunteered to give us her eggs. So we now need to find a surrogate at some point to carry the child and figured out the logistics. 

[Guest Intended Father]

The other method to cut cost is

1. To share egg donor either with another couple/single man or agency that wants to freeze the unused eggs and sell those at a later date.

2. Find another single man that interested to do surrogacy also if u are single. Then u both can get a twins by combining the sperm of each partner with separate batches of the donors eggs. The total cost of surrogacy is divided by two of you and is reduced by half.

[Guest Guest]

How nice if the Singapore gays and lesbians who want to start own families can link up and form a mutual help network.

 

Can donate sperm and eggs to one another.

 

Now who dare say gays and lesbians can't reproduce or boost our country's falling birth rates?? Who dare say gays and lesbians are not Pro-family"??

[MisterD]

What about the longer term arrangements? I don't imagine gay couples can send their kids to subsidized local schools? Ongoing living expenses can be quite hefty.

[Andrew ang525]

What about the longer term arrangements? I don't imagine gay couples can send their kids to subsidized local schools? Ongoing living expenses can be quite hefty.

Who say so? If you can prove genetic link, i.e., DNA study, the child will be a Singaporean and eligible for government school, and NS too.

[Guest Guest]

Who say so? If you can prove genetic link, i.e., DNA study, the child will be a Singaporean and eligible for government school, and NS too.

 

That's correct.

[Guest Guest]

You may have got the legal arrangements covered but what about the social arrangements? You must know that families with same-sex parents are pretty much nonexistent in Singapore. Little or no support network as well. As a country which still keeps laws discriminatory to gays, starting a family would almost be like asking for trouble, wouldn't it?

Don't get me wrong. I'll like to raise children with my other half someday and give them all my love, and this discussion has been interesting and useful to me. Butt, realistically, things are moving rather slow in Singapore, and trying this now may be sorta premature. Singapore as of now is hardly a desirable place, at least to me. What if the child gets bullied? Stigmatized? How will he cope and understand the situation without a strong support network? How will he understand and fully accept the concept of alternative family units when laws like 377A don't look like they will be going away anytime soon?

[Guest Guest]

We can't even go out and hold hands as a couple without getting hostile looks... what would it be like as a family? Sure, things may be getting better but discrimination, misinformation and homophobia are still real - and scary - things. I'll be worried for the child's well being, psychological, and social development, to be honest.

Share with me your thoughts. Perhaps you have already thought of this and have found solutions?

[Guest Guest]

You may have got the legal arrangements covered but what about the social arrangements? You must know that families with same-sex parents are pretty much nonexistent in Singapore. Little or no support network as well. As a country which still keeps laws discriminatory to gays, starting a family would almost be like asking for trouble, wouldn't it?

Don't get me wrong. I'll like to raise children with my other half someday and give them all my love, and this discussion has been interesting and useful to me. Butt, realistically, things are moving rather slow in Singapore, and trying this now may be sorta premature. Singapore as of now is hardly a desirable place, at least to me. What if the child gets bullied? Stigmatized? How will he cope and understand the situation without a strong support network? How will he understand and fully accept the concept of alternative family units when laws like 377A don't look like they will be going away anytime soon?

 

Same sex parenting may not be so much non-existent in Singapore as they are invisible. Just like gays are still largely invisible. But then more and more people are coming out each day ...

 

Let's assume for a moment that gay parenting is indeed rare in Singapore at this time. We still gotta start somewhere. Everything big starts small.

 

Totally right to say we badly need to start a support network for same sex parents. Like this one below ...

 

http://olivia.thechiongs.com/2015/02/07/why-we-are-the-chiongs/

 

And i believe there's a local facebook website on same sex parenting as well.

 

Support network is definitely important.

 

Now the next question ...

 

What if the child gets teased, bullied, ostracised or discriminated?

 

It's not "what if" actually.

 

Any child (or adult for that matter) who looks/talks/feels/seems (delete as appropriate) different will be teased, bullied, ostracised, discriminated.

 

It's basic social psychology. It's the same situation faced by racial minority children in schools.

 

Does that mean racial minorities should not have kids, to avoid their offsprings being bullied?

 

No. The answer lies in gradual social re-construction and also education given by the parents.

 

As parents, you teach your kids to cope. You prepare them mentally and psychologically. From young, you give your kids lots of love and security, and you train them to be mentally resilient to cope with minority stress. So it's really up to you.

 

Anyway kids at school are not just teased or bullied for having gay parents. They are also bullied for being too fat, thin, rich, smart, pretty, ugly, poor, for being too hairy, for not having any hair, for having pimples, for not having pimples, etc. The list is endless. 

 

But I'm so glad we are actually having all this discussion about same sex parenting. And same sex marriages ... now legal in twenty countries worldwide and counting.

 

We are slowly ... but surely ... coming of age.

[Andrew ang525]

You may have got the legal arrangements covered but what about the social arrangements? You must know that families with same-sex parents are pretty much nonexistent in Singapore. Little or no support network as well. As a country which still keeps laws discriminatory to gays, starting a family would almost be like asking for trouble, wouldn't it?

Don't get me wrong. I'll like to raise children with my other half someday and give them all my love, and this discussion has been interesting and useful to me. Butt, realistically, things are moving rather slow in Singapore, and trying this now may be sorta premature. Singapore as of now is hardly a desirable place, at least to me. What if the child gets bullied? Stigmatized? How will he cope and understand the situation without a strong support network? How will he understand and fully accept the concept of alternative family units when laws like 377A don't look like they will be going away anytime soon?

I started this thread.... my aim is simple.... get more information (for those who need them) and hopefully also establish a gay-lesbian data pool for mutual help (surrogacy cannot beat natural conception), and lastly, when enough people had surrogacy child, we can even form a self-help group for parenting advise.

Just for your information.... i am single, and not even a couple, and i planned to retire to take care of the surrogate child.

[MisterD]

That's correct.

Who say so? If you can prove genetic link, i.e., DNA study, the child will be a Singaporean and eligible for government school, and NS too.

Really? I was reading through the requirements here. The treatment for fathers is different from mothers. A single mother qualifies but fathers must be married. At least that is my interpretation.

http://www.ica.gov.sg/page.aspx?pageid=132

Edited May 27, 2015 by MisterD

[Andrew ang525]

Really? I was reading through the requirements here. The treatment for fathers is different from mothers. A single mother qualifies but fathers must be married. At least that is my interpretation.

http://www.ica.gov.sg/page.aspx?pageid=132

If you can prove genetic link, that is simple application of citizenship based on parental-citizenship.  There is no adoption involved.  Adoption is for those without genetic link....

You dont adopt your own genetic son/daughter.

[Guest Guest]

If you can prove genetic link, that is simple application of citizenship based on parental-citizenship.  There is no adoption involved.  Adoption is for those without genetic link....

You dont adopt your own genetic son/daughter.

 

 

Correct.

[Steve5380]

I am curious, is there any organisation in Singapore to help gay and lesbian to arrange for pregnancy, ie, the gay can donate sperm to lesbian couple....and subsequently get help to get his own child?

 

Call me old-fashioned. But I have to wonder why a gay and a lesbian would plan to have a child by artificial insemination, pay a lot of money for it and have legal issues about adoption, etc.

 

For the sake of bringing a child to life and to save US$ 50,000, any gay should be able to copulate with any lesbian as many times as it takes to make a baby.  The biggest work is for the gay,  but there are more threatening and terrifying things in life than to put it inside a vagina, and her job is to just let it happen.  There are good products for erection dysfunction, and maybe even hypnosis could work? 

[Guest BOB]

Call me old-fashioned. But I have to wonder why a gay and a lesbian would plan to have a child by artificial insemination, pay a lot of money for it and have legal issues about adoption, etc.

 

For the sake of bringing a child to life and to save US$ 50,000, any gay should be able to copulate with any lesbian as many times as it takes to make a baby.  The biggest work is for the gay,  but there are more threatening and terrifying things in life than to put it inside a vagina, and her job is to just let it happen.  There are good products for erection dysfunction, and maybe even hypnosis could work? 

 

 

Or perhaps can do artificial home insemination if the lesbian is willing?

 

Basically it means the guy ejaculates into a container and then transfers the semen into a syringe, which is then syringed into the vagina.

 

The syringe replaces the erect penis, since it's really not easy for a gay guy to stay erect for a woman.

 

I think there are such home insemination kits around, can search on youtube.

 

That might save a lot of money for gays and lesbians who want to form mutually beneficial arrangements to have their own kids and start their own happy families.  

 

But first, we need to set up such gay-lesbian alliance networks.

 

Where can we find our lesbian friends? Any suggestions? Do they come to BW forum?

[Andrew ang525]

Or perhaps can do artificial home insemination if the lesbian is willing?

 

Basically it means the guy ejaculates into a container and then transfers the semen into a syringe, which is then syringed into the vagina.

 

The syringe replaces the erect penis, since it's really not easy for a gay guy to stay erect for a woman.

 

I think there are such home insemination kits around, can search on youtube.

 

That might save a lot of money for gays and lesbians who want to form mutually beneficial arrangements to have their own kids and start their own happy families.  

 

But first, we need to set up such gay-lesbian alliance networks.

 

Where can we find our lesbian friends? Any suggestions? Do they come to BW forum?

I hope our Lesbian sisters come into this thread, and can help us.... i hope....and hope....and hope.....

[Guest Guest]

I hope our Lesbian sisters come into this thread, and can help us.... i hope....and hope....and hope.....

 

yeah me too .. where r the ladies?

[Guest Guest]

What about the psychological support needed by the surrogate/lesbian etc. during gestation? How do you all intend to manage this aspect?

[Andrew ang525]

What about the psychological support needed by the surrogate/lesbian etc. during gestation? How do you all intend to manage this aspect?

To be realistic...........................(and trying to avoid going into the genetics, nature vs nuture argument), while there is no evidence of a MAJOR genes inheritance in homosexuality, there are evidences of Minor-genes (polyalleles inheritance) and also family-upbringing evidence.

From Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_trait_locus#Multifactorial_traits_in_general

Multifactorial traits in general

Usually, multifactorial traits outside of illness result in what we see as continuous characteristics in organisms, specially human organisms such as: height,^[9] skin color, and body mass.^[11] All of these phenotypes are complicated by a great deal of give-and-take between genes and environmental effects.^[9] The continuous distribution of traits such as height and skin color described above, reflects the action of genes that do not manifest typical patterns of dominance and recessiveness. Instead the contributions of each involved locus are thought to be additive. Writers have distinguished this kind of inheritance as polygenic, or quantitative inheritance.^[12]

Thus, due to the nature of polygenic traits, inheritance will not follow the same pattern as a simple monohybrid or dihybrid cross.^[10] Polygenic inheritance can be explained as Mendelian inheritance at many loci,^[9] resulting in a trait which is normally-distributed. If n is the number of involved loci, then the coefficients of the binomial expansion of (a + b)²ⁿ will give the frequency of distribution of all n allele combinations. For a sufficiently high n, this binomial distribution will begin to resemble a normal distribution. From this viewpoint, a disease state will become apparent at one of the tails of the distribution, past some threshold value. Disease states of increasing severity will be expected the further one goes past the threshold and away from the mean.^[12]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One of the "RISK" maybe --- there is a likelihood of your child being gay as well....nothing right or wrong, but you been there before (and do you think you are being discriminated against)......you might like to speak to child psychiatrist or developmental psychiatrist for better understanding.....

 

One has to be aware, there are developmental issues in single-parent, or single-sex parents (gay-couple) as the child may need a modal for growing up, eg a daughter may need a mother as role mother which may be difficult in a gay couple or single-father....

 

This is a very controversial topic, please dont flame me.....

Edited May 28, 2015 by Andrew ang525

[Guest Guest]

What about the psychological support needed by the surrogate/lesbian etc. during gestation? How do you all intend to manage this aspect?

 

Good point. Psychological support especially important for the pregnant lady. I assume the respective partners will be providing that, just like straight couples. Otherwise Ooga Chaga might want to consider setting up such a service to meet the changing needs of the LGBT landscape. Hey guys we're now talking about marriages and parenting. Totally unbelievable as recently as ten years ago.

 

 

 

One has to be aware, there are developmental issues in single-parent, or single-sex parents (gay-couple) as the child may need a modal for growing up, eg a daughter may need a mother as role mother which may be difficult in a gay couple or single-father....

 

This is a very controversial topic, please dont flame me.....

 

The role model can come from the extended family, like grandmothers, aunts and cousins.

 

And there's actually this concept of "co-parenting" between gays and lesbians as additional options. That's why a same-sex parenting support alliance is useful. Let's set one up.

 

Can't speak for others but personally as a gay man, i will prefer to raise sons rather than daughters. Same problem for single or widowed fathers for similar reasons.